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A jump to truth.

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:49 pm
by Nigeluzito
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is a mental construction, learnt from parents initially, mental and emotional conditioning mixed with trama continually reinforced in children by adults creating a eventual self reinforcing loop which operates for the rest of the human life if not interrupted.
A personalised guide to break this loop is obviously very helpful.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for expert help to make a final break through. I have a long experience meditating more than 20 years and have taken my "path" very seriously.Fortunately the seeking has more or less fallen away, although I continue my practice . I have worked with a spiritual master and have experienced a glimpse of non dual reality.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope the personal guided conversation will be focused enough to break down the ideas that are still maintaining the illusion of self. My experience of self is now quite light I do not great overly involved in the ideas that appear, I don´t trust the mind, I may listen a while but I am certainly not dominated by thought and can be quite thoughtless at time and present.
What I am really looking for is to finally jump into reality as it is going to be experienced in this form, however , it wishes to present itself

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
More than 20 years of meditation . I was an avid seeker until that dropped away some time ago. I worked with a spiritual master diligently for a number of years. I have been interested in and working with non duality a number of years. I have recently finished the 46 day finders course and a fellow on the course with whom I continue to do an awareness practice recommended this site. Someone who did the full length finders course got to non dual awareness and then fell out, later used this site to return and stabalise non dual awareness.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:59 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Hiya,

Thank you for the introduction. :)

We can explore this together if you'd like.

Just let me know and we'll set off.

With best wishes,
John
a guide here

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:59 am
by Nigeluzito
Hi
That would be great. I look forward to getting started with you.
Thanks for your time.

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:27 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Hi
That would be great. I look forward to getting started with you.
Thanks for your time.

Great! :)

the ideas that are still maintaining the illusion of self

OK, give me an idea that maintains the illusion of self.

Warm wishes,
John

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:11 am
by Nigeluzito
The idea that there is a need to be liberated is really sustaining the idea of self.

When I look there is a constant assumption of self in the background a mental habit, conditioning subtlely all experience,using it to reinforce the idea of self.

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:41 am
by s-p-a-c-e
The idea that there is a need to be liberated is really sustaining the idea of self.

When I look there is a constant assumption of self in the background a mental habit, conditioning subtlely all experience,using it to reinforce the idea of self.

Ok, nice insight. Does this assumption of self give any clues as to the make-up of this self? Location perhaps?

Thanks,
John

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:06 am
by Nigeluzito
Looking at location there is a sensation of behind the eyes, but that is seen as an association with the primary sensory input here. A confusion of what is making perception possible, we could call this awareness, operating through the body always seeing the world from this moving point behind the eyes and all the other sensations linked to the body; hearing being less precise but with directional qualities which break down a little when the eyes are closed.

When I look a little more deeply really trying to find the self I only find a mental idea without substance , where can we really locate an idea, we may again associate it with the head but I have never seen or felt an idea , only its consequences when accepted or acted upon.It´s like a subtle hearing within, a reception of information really coming from an unknown source. So ideas themselves are somewhat misterious, although clearly related often to the experiences the body mind has recieved.

Therefore even the definition of self as mental substance can be questioned, clearly there is an association with the experiences the body mind has recieved, creating a mental filter but perhaps this is only part of the seeming self perhaps beyond that is an energetic element more fundamentally maintaining the self.

Only probing a little the concept of self , fortunately somewhat weakened here, it can be seen as a mental / energetic filter constantly trying to intervene in direct innocent perception. The most that can be said about its location is that it is associated with a body / mind, hence the possibilty of awakening individually.

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:32 am
by s-p-a-c-e
When I look a little more deeply really trying to find the self I only find a mental idea without substance , where can we really locate an idea, we may again associate it with the head but I have never seen or felt an idea , only its consequences when accepted or acted upon.It´s like a subtle hearing within, a reception of information really coming from an unknown source. So ideas themselves are somewhat misterious, although clearly related often to the experiences the body mind has recieved.

Ok, good.

So, we're not sure now whether the assumption of self is there at all, never mind "a constant in the background".

Maybe you've just been fooling yourself all these years about the assumption of self?

Maybe that was the assumption. Not the assumption of self, but the assumption that there was an assumption of self.

If that were the case, imagine that.

That there never was an assumption of self.

Best wishes,
John

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:15 am
by Nigeluzito
The assumption of the idea of self is in a way before the idea of self, when we question the idea of assumption we seem to move back removing a more fundamental layer on which the idea self is based. As it were we are peeling away layers of the onion until we are left with an empty space representing our true nature.

You say "maybe you have been fooling yourself", this provokes the question who has been fooling who. If I call my true nature awareness, only awareness can "hold" an idea either the idea of self or the idea the assumption of self. Only awareness can accept this idea, and where did this idea originate. The obvious answer seems to be a generational transmission a continuation of the socially accepted human condition parents to children.

There seems to be a conclusion that awareness has agreed to accept this idea, and has permitted this idea otherwise the human experience could not be as convincing. It is part of the creation of a seperate human identity part of the human development, as a "self" reflecting mental capacity. Then suffering ensues as the "self" becomes too dominant and a questioning is possible.Then another form of percieving life can open as a natural potencial development.

This leads me to the idea /energetic form of self is a natural process accepted by awareness and generated by awareness to creat the conditions for this human life, and it is awareness itself that has the ability to change these conditions.It is not the illusory self that can remove the ideas, something unreal can not take any action. It is awareness itself that can withdraw its permission for this additional filter after direct perception.

Awareness either is fully knowlegable of this situation or identified in some way with the self concept.Only awareness can change this situation. As awareness is responsible for streaming this post through this being, there seems to be a willingness on its part to allow a greater clarity here and relaxing of limitations.There is a sense of participation in this post not ownership.

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:27 am
by s-p-a-c-e
The assumption of the idea of self is in a way before the idea of self, when we question the idea of assumption we seem to move back removing a more fundamental layer on which the idea self is based. As it were we are peeling away layers of the onion until we are left with an empty space representing our true nature.

You say "maybe you have been fooling yourself", this provokes the question who has been fooling who. If I call my true nature awareness, only awareness can "hold" an idea either the idea of self or the idea the assumption of self. Only awareness can accept this idea, and where did this idea originate. The obvious answer seems to be a generational transmission a continuation of the socially accepted human condition parents to children.

There seems to be a conclusion that awareness has agreed to accept this idea, and has permitted this idea otherwise the human experience could not be as convincing. It is part of the creation of a seperate human identity part of the human development, as a "self" reflecting mental capacity. Then suffering ensues as the "self" becomes too dominant and a questioning is possible.Then another form of percieving life can open as a natural potencial development.

This leads me to the idea /energetic form of self is a natural process accepted by awareness and generated by awareness to creat the conditions for this human life, and it is awareness itself that has the ability to change these conditions.It is not the illusory self that can remove the ideas, something unreal can not take any action. It is awareness itself that can withdraw its permission for this additional filter after direct perception.

Awareness either is fully knowlegable of this situation or identified in some way with the self concept.Only awareness can change this situation. As awareness is responsible for streaming this post through this being, there seems to be a willingness on its part to allow a greater clarity here and relaxing of limitations.There is a sense of participation in this post not ownership.

Thank you.

And are you willing to give up the idea of 'Awareness'?

Much love,
John

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:54 am
by Nigeluzito
Thanks John.

Yes I am willing to give up the idea of "awareness".

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:42 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
Looking at location there is a sensation of behind the eyes, but that is seen as an association with the primary sensory input here. A confusion of what is making perception possible, we could call this awareness, operating through the body always seeing the world from this moving point behind the eyes and all the other sensations linked to the body; hearing being less precise but with directional qualities which break down a little when the eyes are closed.

When I look a little more deeply really trying to find the self I only find a mental idea without substance , where can we really locate an idea, we may again associate it with the head but I have never seen or felt an idea , only its consequences when accepted or acted upon.It´s like a subtle hearing within, a reception of information really coming from an unknown source. So ideas themselves are somewhat misterious, although clearly related often to the experiences the body mind has recieved.

Therefore even the definition of self as mental substance can be questioned, clearly there is an association with the experiences the body mind has recieved, creating a mental filter but perhaps this is only part of the seeming self perhaps beyond that is an energetic element more fundamentally maintaining the self.

Only probing a little the concept of self , fortunately somewhat weakened here, it can be seen as a mental / energetic filter constantly trying to intervene in direct innocent perception. The most that can be said about its location is that it is associated with a body / mind, hence the possibilty of awakening individually.

Ok, lots of ideas here doing a very good distraction job to be fair, for which they should be proud. :)

So, we have this "there is a sensation of behind the eyes".

Look closely at this sensation behind the eyes, and for a minute, let's pretend that it IS me, my self, I.

I want you to ask that sensation behind the eyes DIRECTLY, do you have agency? Can you DO ANYTHING?

Share what you get.

Best wishes,
John

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:34 pm
by Nigeluzito
When I ask the sensation behind the eyes directly those questions I recieve no answer.

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:37 pm
by s-p-a-c-e
When I ask the sensation behind the eyes directly those questions I recieve no answer.

Quite.

Is there anything else, any other candidate for self that you'd like to ask the same question directly to?

For some, it's a voice in the head.
For some, it's a familiar feeling in the chest.
For some it's both.

What is it for you?

Many thanks,
John

Re: A jump to truth.

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:46 pm
by Nigeluzito
More a voice in the head.

Again no answer to the questions.