Ready

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:15 am

While you are watching how thought provokes emotion (disappointment)
have a look at this video, particularly the part where he repositions the sense of self to behing himself and the bit at the end where conscious awareness of decisions occurs 6 seconds After the brain has decided.
The point of the latter being that without conscious choice you might as well relax and just appreciate What IS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

Don't go anywhere yet - there's more to be done.
Using your disappointment, see if you can Realise the difference between pain and (thought induced) suffering.

vince

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Last-ditch
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Re: Ready

Postby Last-ditch » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:57 am

Ah, yes, I'd seen that video before. It's exciting to be alive in the first era that can scientifically confirm what some spiritual traditions have claimed for thousands of years. Sometimes, in meditation, you can also see deeper into the agentless chain of causation that lies behind what we like to call our own free will.

What's the difference between pain and suffering? Resistance. One can't avoid pain, but resistance to it guarantees suffering. I've noticed that virtually every teacher stresses some form of acceptance/allowance.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:31 am

..some form of acceptance/allowance.
Anything other than this (some call it surrender) can only distort (which changes 'what is')
Dave, would you answer these questions;

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

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Last-ditch
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Re: Ready

Postby Last-ditch » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:02 pm

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of separate self is a concept. Conceptualization is a function of mind that creates distinctions, groupings and patterns for the utility of efficient functioning. Presumably, the mind creates the concept of "I" based on what it always has access to — body parts and thought patterns/memories. The self is probably first encountered as one of the earliest concepts taught to children. A parent may point a baby to itself in a mirror and start to teach them to associate a body with a mind. Language seems to play a huge role in the establishment of self. The self may evolve to some extent regardless of language or instruction, but these two things fortify the sense of self to exaggerated levels. I think of the self as being habitually-reinforced neural pathways. Awareness of the right hand can be brought about any time at will (so to speak), so the mind incorporates the right hand into the sense of self. Same goes for memories, which are just events perceived by the body. But since the body has been conceptualized in the mind (as me), anything that affects the body is seen as happening to the whole of "me".

3) How does it feel to see this?

It feels like getting the diagnostic manual for suffering. Suffering may still be commensurate to the strength of the sense of self, but, like you say, the mechanism is no longer a mystery, so one at least has the means to get to the root of the "problem" (which is only a thought).

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

Ha, lord knows I've tried enough to know better, but... questioning does seem to be the best method. The "neti neti" form of questioning may be about the best I know, so I might ask someone what could be taken away from them, bit by bit before they no longer existed. I think most people would still feel "like themselves" if you took away their possessions. Then go on to limbs, organs, parts of brain, memories.... It seems like practically everyone, when first presented with no self, rejects the idea. Makes sense, because a lifetime of habitual conditioning is at stake. When challenged, the self will fight to the death, so the best thing to do is to trick it into fighting itself.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I'm not sure. I think it's happened gradually. As I mentioned when I started out, I wasn't coming into this with a belief in the self. But pondering your challenging questions forced me to spend more time out of the default sense of self. I didn't fully realize the value of sitting stubbornly with a difficult question until a deeper realization emerges. Reminds me of the Einstein quote, "It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer." I think I've learned that I need to do more of this to feel more resolved. I think that I was expecting that briefly even the felt sense of "I" would be noticeably absent. This hasn't yet happened, but I think that this process has shown me some valuable clues as to how and where to look.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:02 pm

Hi David, thanks for your answers to those questions.
They are questions developed at Liberation Unleashed the answers to, generally provide a clear confirmation of 'gate passing'. Then at least three others ('gate passers') will read the answers and either confirm or suggest further work or questions to clarify.
All readily confirmed that you are liberated.
This may sound easy to you, but listen carefully, This is only the beginning, the start of different branch of an endless path.
Many have stated "a decade to 'integration'..."
I think I've learned that I need to do more of this to feel more resolved
There is an post liberation FaceBook group that ever evolves & where 'discussion' of 'issues' or interest constantly happen.
Friend me on facebook and i will invite you to join. You can just lurk if there is curiosity.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... ef=tn_tnmn
i am also available if you wish/prefer to discuss anything with me. PM me here or vinceschubert@gmail.com

Here is a document with some good advice; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf
David, i too had a gradual awakening, accompanied with doubts and disappointment that there was no sonic boom.
As you will see if you join FB Unleashed, there are as many unique variations of 'gate passing' as there are people experiencing this.
Experiencing for you from now may be steeped in ordinariness or great excitement or both or any in between.
spend more time out of the default sense of self
Operating from a sense of self is habitual with <insert your age> years of conditioning behind it.
Our language is predicated on the Personal Pronoun, always capitalised I.
You might probably expect that brain conditioning (habit) will continue but with significant and exponential diminishment each time you 'catch' it happening.
i found frequent appreciation of 'the sweet spot' to be 'centering' whenever doubts or suffering visited.
i also found the Facebook group valuable for 4-5 months.

Good feelings to you David

vince

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Last-ditch
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Re: Ready

Postby Last-ditch » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:37 pm

Vince, many thanks for your help. I really appreciated your style of guiding, and I'm grateful that it was you I got to work with. For me it was valuable that you shared some of the strategies at work and didn't keep it on a strict "need-to-know" basis.

I'm glad to know that the results of this process are "peer reviewed", because, as mentioned before, it seemed that prior direct pointing sites may have not been quite rigorous enough.

There's a sense of relief now, but not what I would have expected. The no-self realization has been so profound for some that I kept thinking there was something I was missing. Apparently not; it's just different for different people. There was an expectation of a strong sense of the search being over, but it feels more like getting the results back for a test that you were sure you failed, but in reality you aced.

Yes, I will check out the facebook group to see what that's all about. Look for me under another name as I've used my middle name on this forum.

All the best to you, Vince.
Warmest regards,
David

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:34 pm

You're welcome David.
i have invited you (i hope it's you) to FB and it is waiting Admin approval - shouldn't be too long.

vince

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Last-ditch
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Re: Ready

Postby Last-ditch » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:57 pm

Yup, got the message, thanks.


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