Longing for a breakthrough

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peter
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Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:16 pm

Hello, I have first read about LU on Bentinho Massaro's FA forum - find it fascinating.
After decades of seeking with quite a few ups and downs I yearn for a breakthrough.
I would be grateful if someone could guide me.

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dkelso
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby dkelso » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:07 pm

Alright Peter, I'd be happy to.

Before we start, please state for me a couple of things.

Can you discriminate between what you directly perceive and what you know? Do you really understand what that involves? What I will do is Direct Pointing, and we will keep it focused on that, ok?

Tell me, what exactly do you want out of this collaboration? Really put your specific intention in one or two sentences.

Please be completely honest, this is a space to lay all your cards on the table so they can be seen clearly and dealt with. (that's a little too "poker" but you know what I mean). ; )

talk to you soon,
Dan

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:40 pm

Thank you for taking me on.

Can you discriminate between what you directly perceive and what you know?

The perceiving happens in the present moment - knowing (I am not sure if I know anything) seems to be more continuous.

Tell me, what exactly do you want out of this collaboration?

Five years ago I came into contact with some sort of an indescribable presence inside me - something real and authentic underneath the thought-stream; it was the finding again of what I was sometimes in contact with between age 17-20 (now I am 51), but which I had lost somehow. It is not a continuous contact. What I want is find out what is real inside me and to deepen the awareness of it.

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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby dkelso » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:05 pm

Good, let's start.

Can you contact that "presence" in your present experience? If so, try to describe it in detail, but just what is sensed/seen about it, try not to "interpret" or insert meaning.

Also, if I say, "There is no you, only this", can you see the truth of this in your direct experience?

best,
Dan

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:15 pm

Hello Dan,
Can you contact that "presence" in your present experience?
Yes, by bringing my attention to it. To describe what I see is difficult, the effect this contact has is a calm and stillness, a pleasant sensation in various regions of the body, sometimes the upper back, sometimes more the hips, but is is more than that (how to describe the indescribable?) It has a fullness and realness in it.
Also, if I say, "There is no you, only this", can you see the truth of this in your direct experience?
It is only recently that I begin to get what this could mean (maybe triggered by reading other threads on this forum).I notice more and more that all I do is being done and "this" is not involved. But this is not my constant experience up to now. Only when I consciously take a look I see "Oh I just put on my shoes but it happend by itself." Also driving for example is automatic.

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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby dkelso » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:56 pm

Thanks Peter, that gives me an idea where to start.

Just to clarify, all we are going after her is clarity around the sense of being a separate person belief in being a separate being. But that is a major factor in experience as you will soon find if you stick with it.

Let's look at where you do feel you are there.

Looking at your experience now, what in your experience of things, sensations, etc. suggests to you that there is a you behind or associated with the body, mind, etc. What makes it feel personal?

And again, keep it tight, just what you see, but try to notice any oddness about that "I sense" as you investigate it. Shifting or disappearing or becoming a certain size are possibilities.

Something I will come back to again and again is, observing informs belief. The more clearly you see, the more your beliefs begin to change naturally.

til later....

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:38 am

Hi Dan,
Looking at your experience now, what in your experience of things, sensations, etc. suggests to you that there is a you behind or associated with the body, mind, etc. What makes it feel personal?
What makes it feel personal seems to be a sense of relatedness to it. For example when I put on my shoes rather than my daughter's there is a familiarity to them. When I talk to my wife I feel in some way personally related to her. When there is a sensation in the body lets say discomfort it happens in the body I am experiencing life with. The thoughts that arise refer somehow to the caracter "me". I don't say I am altogether convinced of these suggestions of a me but this is how it looks like.
Let me add that I am quite determined to stick to it to the end and I appreciate that you dedicate your time to this.

Thanks
Peter

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:02 am

What appears when I look for a me is an image, an image that I always took for myself/that pretends to be me.

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dkelso
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby dkelso » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:17 pm

That determination is powerful Peter and will serve you well, good to know it's there.
What appears when I look for a me is an image, an image that I always took for myself/that pretends to be me.
This is good, tease out those "personal" feelings, self feelings, that image, the "taking it to be myself",............... what is that, does it amount to being what you are? Really look closely at every aspect of the experience you're describing that suggests "you", all the "my"s in there.

Get convinced one way or another, is it you or not? Just simple looking and confirming. Keep it going and describe what is seen, what is true.

I can tell you no "I" is true, but you must see it for yourself, right here in your present experience.

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:17 pm

The image I see, what is it made up of?
- the body, but not seen in all its details, more a vague outline of it
- the habitual and conditioned way I behave and relate to other people
- skills and shortcomings
- it is to some extent influenced by how other people react to me
- although I feel quite comfortable in my skin and the assets by far outweigh the defects I don't like that image - it's a fake.

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dkelso
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby dkelso » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:53 pm

Thinking never reveals anything, SEEING does.

Blow past that stuff, those are basically all ideas, look for "see-able" evidence. Your not imagining or speculating here, you are Looking! Are you in or existing as any of those in actuality?

You are not the body, chop it up and toss the pieces and you don't go anywhere. So forget about it, it's clearly not you.

Habitual behavior, that's an idea, thought. What does that thought represent? Break it down: body motions, associated thoughts, are you actually IN or AS those things? Look and find out.

It's all a fake, of course, but see it clearly, then move past it to what really feels like you. Is it a "witness"? A watcher? A sense of location in the heart area or the head? Find the core of what says, "Peter is here! I'm here!! " Find that then question what that is, is that you!

Look into the last place you could possibly be and see if you are actually there! Don't take this into the thinking process, you either see it like you see a cup on the table, or it's not there!

What is seen now?

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:15 am

I was trying to become conscious of the false image of me. Is it me? No.

You tell me to move past it - I try - I watch the thoughts streaming through my head, they calm down and what appears is something that feels more real and true than any image. But is that who I am? It is difficult to describe as I mentioned in a previous post. It is still, always the same and yes, a watcher, but as far as location is concerned, it is not contained, it is somewhere behind but at the same time it is unlocatable.

This is the most accurate I can come up with at this moment. You tell me to see, I hope this is what you mean by "seeing".

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dkelso
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby dkelso » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:05 pm

Ok, you're close to seeing something here but don't quite see it yet.
I was trying to become conscious of the false image of me. Is it me? No.
Get back into this again, "looking for the false image of me", do this right now but don't read on until you get there....................

Now, just look, don't think, and see...


who is looking? what is it that is looking, turn the attention 180 degrees,tell me in simple language just what is seen.

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:22 pm

I did as you said. When turning the attention what I saw for a moment was "the silent watcher". But lost it immediately.

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peter
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Re: Longing for a breakthrough

Postby peter » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:24 pm

What I want to tell you is , since you began to work with me, sometimes there arises a fear in the sistem without an apparent cause, which is strange to me because this is an emotion I normally rarely experience.


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