Not playing game of thrones

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Runo12
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Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:50 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
No self means to me both the ultimate nature of reality as empty, radiant, free of form, full of love, as well as the pathway towards living this reality.

What are you looking for at LU?
Having just watched Game of Thrones, I realized that the nature of physical survival is identification. Accumulating names, titles, crests and coats of armor, we try to fix a self to earth. The result is bloody. And even though I’ve been meditating vipassana-style for years, daily and during long silent retreats, still the blasted selfing continues. Suffering follows like night. I want to wake up out of the storied self. To wake up from the fictions of my life.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
There are no expectations but a hope of learning to dis identify this body, mind and heart so it may be freer, and more helpful on earth. I hope to find practical guidance on releasing ego’s grip. This is my prayer: “God, make me a channel of your love. “ - St. Francis

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
6 years regular insight meditation
Too many books and podcasts
7 silent retreats (3-10 days each)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:39 am

Hello Runo12,

Thanks for your patience and for your answers, I enjoyed reading them and if you are still seeking a guide I would be happy to help. What should I call you?

A few bits of housekeeping first:

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Best wishes,

Nic

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:00 pm

Thank you so much for your guidance. Here are the replies to the questions:
How will life change?

Frankly, it’s hard to say but maybe life will feel more fluid, lighter, natural and real. The conceptual scaffolding will fall away leaving a recognition of what’s true.
How will I change?
Haven’t any idea. My expectations for self change are obscured by years of study, improvement projects, and resulting doubt but there is a willingness to let go and a faith in this process.
What will be different?


That closed fist grasping, fighting and gripping will open like a hand that can just help out more in the world.

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:40 am

Hi,

You're welcome, and thank you for your responses, all seems reasonable. We ask this because often expectations can get in the way :)
No self means to me both the ultimate nature of reality as empty, radiant, free of form, full of love, as well as the pathway towards living this reality.
And even though I’ve been meditating vipassana-style for years, daily and during long silent retreats, still the blasted selfing continues. Suffering follows like night. I want to wake up out of the storied self. To wake up from the fictions of my life.
So you describe what no-self means, what does the self mean to you? Where does self exist for you?

If I was to say to you that no self exists anywhere, what comes up for you?

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:07 pm

Thank you for these prompts, interesting to explore.
you describe what no-self means, what does the self mean to you? Where does self exist for you?
No self represents both a quantum physics and spiritual CONCEPT and an ineffable EXPERIENCE of perfect impersonal emptiness. No self is light. No self is love.

However, my experiences of no self, powerful at the time, are but a poor memory now. A fleeting recollection of light.

Self exists in the mind, a spun tapestry of thoughts, passions, personality traits, prejudices, memories. No self shines through as the tapestry frays and falls away.

What arises from the statement “No self exists anywhere” is a little frustration, doubt and fear, but ask me in an hour and my answer might be completely different lol.

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:56 pm

Hi Runo,

In this enquiry the main thing to get hold of is that it is about direct experience (DE) rather than concepts and thoughts. Where does the self exist in your actual experience?

To clarify what I am pointing to try this:

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

Give it some time

Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

Let me know how you get on,

Cheers,

Nic

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:39 am

It funny Nic, I’d felt unsatisfied and off with my previous response to the no self exploration. Conceptual and not sensing. So last night during sit, at first I let my brain 🧠 mouth off as much as it wanted, observing how pain in hip made the mind very loud in complaint and impulse to move. After settling somewhat, attention rested in the breathing, the shifting hot cold muscle contractions, the whispery sounds through the nostrils and the vibrations of my thumbs in particular (my go to area for direct experience is the hands because they’re sensitive without discomfort. Also helpful for attuning attention to increasingly fine sensations is the very end of the exhalation. Emptied of breath, there’s a subtle but pleasant relief through entire torso. Then the family came in, child hollered Mom, and the dog barked. My eyes sprung open and words snapped back into mind and out mouth. “Give me five more minutes.” Will continue to work on eyes open meditation and look at the seeing instead of the objects but this is the most difficult sense to hush the labeling organ and dis identify with self. Thank you and wishing you a happy ease full Monday tomorrow!

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:17 am

Yes, you know how to do this! How to look into the body, into sensing, into experience. So try to apply that to looking into the sense of self, the sense of 'I,' the sense of 'me.'

What is that self, in DE?

Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?


It also sounds like you are quite busy so just try to keep some of your attention on the enquiry through your day - looking at the difference between conceptual and DE, reflecting on the questions and pointers.

Best wishes,

Nic

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:35 am

Yes thank you!
What is that self, in DE?
Today presented many chafing occasions to sense the self in all its pufferfish reactivity; between difficult emotions, conflict with daughter and husband, technology issues, the weather, prolific opinions/reactions on Trump, it was most unpleasant sensing lol. I could feel my brain fill with blood, pulse quicken, stomach clench with “selfing.” Also the compulsion to move and talk arose and fell away throughout the day.

The few non-selfing moments came when alone meditating, during brief mindful walks, doing dishes and laundry, picking up dog poop in the backyard and now:)

Thank you very much for your responses. Hoping you have a happy, safe, healthy and peaceful day today!

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:44 am

Thank you! Hope you have a good day too :)

Ok, so I hear you, that you noticed times of selfing and times that were free of it - so now, what is it? What happens when it is there or not there?

Where is that self located? What does it consist of?


To do this enquiry we are looking and seeing that there is no self - but before we can do that, we need to get really clear how the self manifests for you now, and how it is experienced or assumed to be experienced. This shows us where we need to look. And we need to look at the actual experience of it, not the thoughts or stories :)

An analogy is this; we want to know about the weather, so we can find out all about it, on the internet, phone a friend, think about recent weather, worry about it..or we can open the curtains and simply look and see.

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:17 am

An analogy is this; we want to know about the weather, so we can find out all about it, on the internet, phone a friend, think about recent weather, worry about it..or we can open the curtains and simply look and see.
.

Wonderful and wonderfully eloquent analogy!

Ok down to business:)
What happens when self manifests: ugh 😑 honestly, it’s hard to capture but self springs forth in complete pictures—automatic, simultaneous with hearing in the head the word self. A cascade of pleasant/unpleasant visual and auditory sensations flood what feels like my head, eyes and neck. Immediately there’s physical pressure to move and massage the contracted muscles in sore neck. There’s a nice shift when turning attention to breathing, hearing pops of neck knots beneath finger pressure. Then awareness snaps to the tv 📺. Nebraska cornhuskers playing Iowa State. Thought pops up to get a 🍺 and some chips. Judgement of fatty self blooms forth unbidden, followed by neck tightening and hand flying up to massage.

I will try again tomorrow 😝! Have a great evening and thank you 🙏🏽 !

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:09 pm

Hi Runo12,

I get the feeling you aren't really able to give this much time - Its ok if you are busy I understand, but at the same time this enquiry is quite a serious undertaking and does need effort and focus if you are to be successful.

What happens when self manifests: ugh 😑 honestly, it’s hard to capture but self springs forth in complete pictures—automatic, simultaneous with hearing in the head the word self.
The enquiry is all about looking, and really looking at this self, let’s look at this word self, and with thought and the content of thought a little more. Try to take a little time to look and report back:

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?




Best wishes,

Nic

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:13 am

Yes I definitely wish to stay with the enquiry. I’ll spend some good time on the questions tomorrow. Thank you!

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Runo12
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Runo12 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:17 am

The enquiry is all about looking, and really looking at this self, let’s look at this word self, and with thought and the content of thought a little more. Try to take a little time to look and report back:

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU
Ok, back again, thanks for your patience. 1. Writing the word “I” on paper 📝 is not I me or mine, it was a series of mental, physical, volitional and sensory activities and the observing of these processes. Despite sensing a slight gap between the task and the awareness, the solidity of an agent “I” locked back into place right away. This was followed by a frustration in body and thought. I’m not getting it.
Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”
2. Sayin the word “i” out loud evoked first mental activity of intending and executing the task, various physical sensations of jaw dropping, tongue moving and teeth closing, auditory sensations of hearing the ahhheeee sounds, and an awareness of these perceptions. However, the “I” as volitional agent rushed in as solidly as before in writing the word “I.”

3. I lost the first and second drafts of answers. By the third attempt, the sense of an “I” felt dense with impatience. Could feel a kind of breath apnea, contracted jaw, chest and neck, and a speeding up to complete answers without technology blinking out. Did the same “I” exist across 3 drafts. Frankly yes, it feels like that person does in fact exist as agent, physical avatar, and conscious observer. Why am I not seeing it?

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Skygazer74
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Re: Not playing game of thrones

Postby Skygazer74 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:23 am

Hi,

Thanks for your answers :) I am quite tired so I hope this makes sense tonight!
the solidity of an agent “I” locked back into place right away. This was followed by a frustration in body and thought. I’m not getting it.
However, the “I” as volitional agent rushed in as solidly as before in writing the word “I.”
Did the same “I” exist across 3 drafts. Frankly yes, it feels like that person does in fact exist as agent, physical avatar, and conscious observer. Why am I not seeing it?
Ok so we are getting somewhere - I am seeing that for you the self is most wrapped up in a sense of agency. Also as observer, and 'physical avatar,' which I am assuming is the body? :) (I have bolded this so I remember to come back to these three)

I am also sensing a kind of frustration, as if this is something you should know, or get? Life trains us to relate to the world in a dual way, as in self and other, and language constructs this, separation is thoroughly drilled into us..so try to be patient and kind with the self while it still exists :) This isn't something that can be learned with the intellect, or grasped at, it comes from patiently looking again and again at experience, and seeing through the mental constructs. Self can only be found in thought (an interpretation of direct experience) and this is why we look to see the truth in direct experience. We have to keep seeing it until clarity dawns and thought stops obstructing the natural openness and wholeness of awareness.

Lets start with the conscious observer, and this is something you can try regularly through your day, just to keep the looking going.

Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing.
Firstly, can you find the eyes, except as a thought?
Can you find anything behind the eyes looking through them?
Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Best wishes,

Nic


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