Guidance for deep looking

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:21 pm

Hi Vivien
So the ‘sense of self’ is just a mislabelled sensation.
Is this totally clear experientially?
I think it’s clear that the sensation which I associated with self are just sensations as you say mislabelled as me somehow, but there is still a sense of me.
So, then where is your-SELF?
Not sure.

I def still feel like there’s some here most of the time. The sense of me I think is my thoughts/ emotions and the internal voice.

It seems to rise with them.

I can’t pin it down to a place but it seems to be here where I’m thinking and experiencing ver everything from

Is there a self/I/me at all?
If yes, where is it exactly?
Not sure...

Somehow it’s still here, seems to come up with emotions and thoughts ( which then are felt in expressions on face - which I can see are not me )

Sense of self is stronger when ‘i’ feel threatened
in someway but it also seems unconscious ( I mean that I get annoyed or fearful and there seems to be an I mixed up with those emotions- or an I that is being defended- but I’m not really aware of an I at the time just the need to protect it.

Also it seems to be in the chattering voice in my head always planning and reviewing stuff,

Thanks again Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:28 am

Hi Mike,
I think it’s clear that the sensation which I associated with self are just sensations as you say mislabelled as me somehow, but there is still a sense of me.
“There is still a sense of self” – and then what? Do you expect the ‘sense of self’ to go away?
Why should it go away?

Whose problems is that if it’s there?

Also it seems to be in the chattering voice in my head always planning and reviewing stuff,
All right. Let’s look at this ‘chattering voice’.

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination, if any?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:00 am

Hi Vivien

Sorry taken a few days to get back to you. Will
Message daily from now on.
[Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination, if any?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

No I can’t😊

Every time I sit and look ( and try to trace a thought back) I have no idea where it came from. It seems to come out of nothing, no where and disappear into nowhere.

Usually I watch for a while and then seem to get sucked into a thought before I realise that I’m thinking.
do you expect the ensemble of self to go away? Why should it go away? Who’s problem is it if it does or doesn’t?
I guess I do have expectations 😊 I don’t expect the sense of self to go away but I think there is an expectation or a hope that the sense of self will be seen through ( ‘i’ will know it’s an illusion or at least that the idea of separate controller is an illusion even if the sense of self is still there)

Why should it go away?

I don’t know ... but I want ( or there is a desire) to see through it.

Who’s problem is it?

Ok right now if I look for a me ( who would have a problem) I find sensations ( which I know are not ‘me’ I find thoughts which I can see come from nothing ( it seems) and disappear to nothing ( without any input from a me).

And there is some sense of I here ( I think ) but cant pin it down ( can’t find it)

So I don’t know who this could be a problem for but there are feelings that not seeing through the illusion of self for example is a problem.

The urge / desire to see this is here . I can feel it now ( frustration) , and also there is still some fear of losing control as a feeling that arises.

Who has these feelings I don’t know...

Plus another feeling/ question here is why should ‘I’ have to make so much effort if there is no seprate controller.

This sense of effort and strain that I feel now and if dissatisfaction and of trying to make thi things right is then kind of meaningless

Thanks again Vivien
Talk soon
Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:04 am

Hi Vivien

Just follow up to last message

There seems to be some contradiction in my mind about effort

I feel like I need to make effort to see . You ask me to look at thoughts and for the sense of self etc.

Then I do this, but if there is no controller then what is happening...


The sense of effort and any resistance or enthusiasm are all just happening... ?

Thanks againMike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:11 am

Hi Mike,
And there is some sense of I here ( I think ) but cant pin it down ( can’t find it)
Do you just THINK or you ACTUALLY KNOW that there is a sense of me present?

What is this ‘sense of me’?
What is it made of?

Is there a ME to sense?
So I don’t know who this could be a problem for but there are feelings that not seeing through the illusion of self for example is a problem.
Is this a feeling or is this a thought [that not seeing through the illusion of a self is a problem]?
Plus another feeling/ question here is why should ‘I’ have to make so much effort if there is no seprate controller.
Is this a feeling or is this a thought?
also there is still some fear of losing control as a feeling that arises.
Control can be lost ONLY, if there is a YOU owning and having control.
But if there is no you/self than control cannot be lost.
Since there has never been anything owning control in the first place.
An illusory thing cannot lose anything.

So, is there a YOU that could lose control?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:14 am

Hi Mike,
The sense of effort and any resistance or enthusiasm are all just happening... ?
This is an excellent question. But why don’t you look for yourself?

So? What do you find?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Hi Vivien
The sense of effort and any resistance or enthusiasm are all just happening... ?
This is an excellent question. But why don’t you look for yourself?

So? What do you find?
Ok right now I’m in a cafe writing this reply. Just dropped my daughter off at first day school. There are feelings of frustration, annoyance which come and go, and sometimes a a feeling of searching for satisfaction.

We met some of the parents outside the school. I had various thoughts ( I’m not sure exactly what sometimes I’m just aware of the emotion which the thoughts trigger.

In this case I actually felt some dislike for these people mixed with a desire for acceptance.

But yes as you asked in a previous question the thoughts come first.

Anyway yes these thoughts and the emotions that come with them all seem to happen on their own.

So it’s not hard for me to see that thoughts and emotions come by themselves ( when I look)
But then I live as if there is an I actively thinking.

Thanks Vivien


When I was dropping off my daughter I didn’t ask for the thoughts or emotions come - they just did out of habit I think and past experience etc.

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:44 pm

Hi Vivien
And there is some sense of I here ( I think ) but cant pin it down ( can’t find it)
Do you just THINK or you ACTUALLY KNOW that there is a sense of me present?
I know there is awareness ( at least as far as I know anything).
There are sounds, smells, feelings, sights -
And there is an awareness of this.
If I look at the coffee cup on the table I’m sitting at I can see it’s blue, I can see the coffee is brown, I can smelll the coffee.

(These words are labels for what is seen but that doesn’t change the fact that there is an awareness of what is seen ( can’t think of better way to say it)

Also it seems that the awareness here does differ from the awareness that other people have ( at least the point of view).

Because others can see my face and I can’t.

Do I know there is a sense of self.

Right now it seems no. I am aware of sensations, thoughts emotions - some feelings and thoughts I label as me and mine.

I don’t know they are me or mine but there is a thought that they are, and much of the time this thought is believed.

What is this ‘sense of me’?
What is it made of?
There is nothing here. That what it seems like right now. ( although as I write this a feeling of doubt comes up and the thought that I am trying to convince myself]

But when I look for the sense of me it is just sensations and a thought - I am here or this is me.

Somehow there is also another thought that d r says the opposite ( this is me. I am here separately here and if I bet I am not here things will fall apart)
is there a me to sense?
No
Right now there are feelings sensations which are labelled as me.

I can’t find ME but sense seem to believe there is one
is this a feeling or thought ? - that not seeing illusion of self is problem]

It’s a thought yes I can see that with a feeling that follows.

Thanks Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:36 am

Hi Mike,
Also it seems that the awareness here does differ from the awareness that other people have ( at least the point of view).
Because others can see my face and I can’t.
This is a conceptual speculation and not looking at experience directly.

Awareness itself is a concept only.
I know there is awareness ( at least as far as I know anything).
There are sounds, smells, feelings, sights -
And there is an awareness of this.
Can you find this thing called awareness in reality?

How awareness itself is experienced?

And what is it made of? How big it is? What color? Texture?

Can it be touched, smelled, tasted, heard, seen?

And WHERE is this awareness EXACTLY?

Is there both awareness AND objects (like sound, smells, etc)? Are both of them there?

Sounds, smells, tastes, colors are there. But WHERE is awareness?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:46 am

Hi Vivien
can you find this thing called awareness in reality?

I hasn’t really thought of that!

I just assumed that it is there because I am aware it seems.

But when you ask no I can’t find it.

I can see objects around me - the table, the coffee cup etc, I can hear people talking .

When I listen to their voices it sounds like they are happening in some kind of space or silence.

Their voices / the sound appears then disappear into a kind of nothing/ space.

When I point at my face and look at what I’m looking out of there is some kind of empty space which. seems aware

But I can’t see awareness

( there’s an experiment I used to do from Douglas Harding where you and another person put your face in either end of a cardboard cylinder so you are face to face. Then you compare what you see at their end ( their face) to what you see at your end ( a kind of clear space)

I don’t know if that means anything.

When I look back here there is a clear space which does seem aware but I don’t think I can see the awareness itself.
how is awareness itself experienced?
Not on its own. When I look at something I can see it.there is the shape of the cup and the colour.

When I close my eyes it disappears.

But there still feels like there is awareness or aliveness ( different from sleep).
what is it made of? What colour shape?
No colour no shape
can it be touched smelled and where is it exactly
No smell or touch.

Where is it?

If I look at an person - my wife my daughter or anyone I can see their face. When I look back at what I’m looking out of I can see empty space.

It seems aware but it doesn’t make sense that it should be just here..

Also i do t know what is aware of this awarenes!
If that’s what it is

Or is the awareness wherever my attention is
is there both awareness and objects. Are both of them there?
I can’t see feel or touch awareness. I can’t sense it but ...

Bit confused here!

I know this is going away from direct experience but I’ve read and been taught a lot about awareness. But if I put that aside then ..

If I watch my thoughts/emotions ... like right now there are various thoughts emotions going on. Some resistance some frustrations etc

It feels like there is an awareness of these things but I cannot sense it...

I do feel a bit confused right now! I want to ask how you think I am doing but that question seems a bit ridiculous! Still how do you think I am doing (with this process)

Thanks Vivien
Talk soon Mike


But

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:27 am

Hi Mike,
I just assumed that it is there because I am aware it seems.
In order to say that I am aware, there has to be an ‘I’, an ACTUAL, REAL ‘I’ (not just an imagined one) which could have the potential to be aware.

So WHERE is the ‘I’ that is SUPPOSEDLY aware?

When I listen to their voices it sounds like they are happening in some kind of space or silence.
“…. sounds LIKE….”

Be careful with expressions with ‘SEEMS’ or ‘feels LIKE’, ‘seems LIKE’, ‘sounds LIKE’, ‘it’s LIKE AS IF’ - . A SEEMING or LIKING thing is NOT an actual thing.

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just thought story, a SEMBLANCE, and NOT AN ACTUAL thing. It’s not coming from looking at AE directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?


What is the experience of this ‘space’ or ‘silence’? HOW is it experienced?
When I point at my face and look at what I’m looking out of there is some kind of empty space which. seems aware
If I look at an person - my wife my daughter or anyone I can see their face. When I look back at what I’m looking out of I can see empty space.
This is just a belief. An idea. This doesn’t come from looking at experience. This is like a tale. A story only.

Here is an exercise for you. Please do it for several minutes, and repeat it a few more times before replying.

Please go to a mirror, and look directly into your eyes.
You say that what you are looking out of an empty space that SEEMS to be aware.
So let’s find this empty space that is SUPPOSEDLY aware.

Stare into your eyes for minutes, and do everything you can to FIND and SEE this ‘aware empty space’.

Can you see an ‘empty space’ in the eyes?
Or you can see just a pair eyes?

If you say, that yes, you can see an empty aware space, then describe me its exact location, size, texture, color, shape, describe everything about it.

Can you see ANYTHING looking through the eyes?
Or you just simply see a pair of eyes in the mirror?


Be very careful not to go into story-land. Don’t come up with analogies, semblances, comparisons.
Rather just observe what is ACTUALLY THERE, and what is it that is just IMAGINED to be there.
Let me know what you find.
When I look back here there is a clear space which does seem aware but I don’t think I can see the awareness itself.
SEEMS aware…..

How does a ‘clear space’ look like?
Can you draw a picture of this ‘aware clear space’?

Can ‘clear space’ be seen? Felt? Heard? Experienced at any way?
Or is this just a fantasy? Just a learned spiritual concept?

But there still feels like there is awareness or aliveness ( different from sleep).
Again, FEELS LIKE….

This is just a thought analogy, a thought semblance… but is there REALLY an awareness or aliveness experienced?
It seems aware but it doesn’t make sense that it should be just here..
SEEMS again.
Also i do t know what is aware of this awarenes!
How can you make the statement that there is anything aware of this awareness, if this awareness cannot be found and experienced at all?
Do you see that this awareness is just a speculation but not a reality?
Bit confused here!
I know this is going away from direct experience but I’ve read and been taught a lot about awareness. But if I put that aside then ..
Yes, you are confused. And do you know why? It’s because you have a LEARNED CONCEPTUAL BELIEF about awareness (what you picked up from somewhere), and when you look at experience directly, there is a big clash between this BELIEF and REALITY (experience).

So the confusion is coming from seeing that reality (experience) is NOT how you have BELIEVED it to be.
It feels like there is an awareness of these things but I cannot sense it...
FEELS LIKE again… yes, you cannot sense it, because it's not there. It's just IMAGINED to be there.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:19 am

Hi Vivien
[So WHERE is the ‘I’ that is SUPPOSEDLY aware/quote]

I don’t know...
If I look now and describe what I see-

I’m in a cafe. Thrre is a table in front me, with a coffee cup and my keys on it. There are several people in the cafe moving around, behind them and outside the cafe the road cars passing by.

There is the sound of the coffee machine hissing and if traffic and of people taking.

When I look down I can see 2 legs, black trousers, yellow jumper, the phone and one hand holding it, another typing with the index finger.

If I look up towards the top of the jumper I can see it moving with each breath.

Then above the top of the jumper where I see my head when I look in the mirror there is a space - it doesn’t have any colour or texture of shape but my direct experience tells me I am looking out of this space. ( is this wrong?)


I can’t find an I here- except in the mislabelled sensations in the area above the top of my jumper, and in the thoughts and emotions that arise in this same area.

But there is as before still a belief in an I much of the time and a desire for their not to be.
Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just thought story, a SEMBLANCE, and NOT AN ACTUAL thing. It’s not coming from looking at AE directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?
Yes Vivien I can see those words are not direct observations ( thanks)


What is the experience of this ‘space’ or ‘silence’? HOW is it experienced?
Ok in concrete terms - from direct experience- all I can say is that ‘i’ can see objects , shapes, colours and smell and hear and feel.

When I look above the top of my jumper there is a space. Thoughts and emotions are felt there.
Stare into your eyes for minutes, and do everything you can to FIND and SEE this ‘aware empty space’.

Can you see an ‘empty space’ in the eyes?
Or you can see just a pair eyes?
I can see just a pair of eyes. My experience is that ‘i’ am looking at the face and the eyes .

( I know the next comment is s feeling but just reporting what I experience)

I have a thought/feeling that the face and eyes are not me.

If you say, that yes, you can see an empty aware space, then describe me its exact location, size, texture, color, shape, describe everything about it.
The space is on ‘my’ side of the mirror-

So where I’m sitting now in the cafe if I lift up my right hand and move it back beside my head it disappears into a space.

I do t know what this means. Or if it means anything but my direct experience is that my hand disappears .
How does a ‘clear space’ look like?
Can you draw a picture of this ‘aware clear space’?

My experience is if foe example I look into the mirror and hold my hands either side of it - touching the mirror that I see the face in the mirror, the hands and arms

If I follow the arms back they disappear.

This picture is the same as my experience

http://www.headless.org/images-audio-video.htm#
How can you make the statement that there is anything aware of this awareness, if this awareness cannot be found and experienced at all?
Do you see that this awareness is just a speculation but not a reality?
I can see that awareness is just a word - not reality yes-

It would be impossible to sense awareness if awareness means being aware.

Yes I see this.

I can say there is awareness in a logical conceptual way because if there was no awareness nothing would be perceived?

But awareness can’t be sensed.

( still not sure why everyone talks about awareness and it’s importance)

Thanks again Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:49 am

Hi Mike,
Then above the top of the jumper where I see my head when I look in the mirror there is a space - it doesn’t have any colour or texture of shape but my direct experience tells me I am looking out of this space. ( is this wrong?)
This is a learned knowledge, a learned perception from the headless way.

There is ZERO experience of space.

But if you believe that there is experience of space, and looking out of the space, then it shows that you can’t see the difference between experience and thoughts ( = imagination).
Ok in concrete terms - from direct experience- all I can say is that ‘i’ can see objects , shapes, colours and smell and hear and feel.
This is still not direct experience.
Since there is no experience of an ‘I’ hearing, feeling, seeing, etc.
When I look above the top of my jumper there is a space. Thoughts and emotions are felt there.
But this space is just a fantasy, not an experience.
I can see just a pair of eyes. My experience is that ‘i’ am looking at the face and the eyes .
There is no experience of “I am looking…” – since there is no experience of an 'I" or anything looking.
So where I’m sitting now in the cafe if I lift up my right hand and move it back beside my head it disappears into a space.
This is an intellectualization. This is a learned knowledge form the headless way. This is not looking at experience.
I can say there is awareness in a logical conceptual way because if there was no awareness nothing would be perceived?
But awareness can’t be sensed.
You are making logical conclusions. You are thinking, not looking.

Mike, what you think you experience is mostly just beliefs.
You used the method of the headless way to interpret your beliefs in the self.
You mixed the headless way with the belief in the self, into a big mesh-up.
So now you have an even ‘messed up’ beliefs of the self, than most people normally have.
Beliefs layered upon beliefs.

If you want to be successful with this investigation, and you REALLY want to see the illusion of the self, you have to COMPLETELY ABANDON everything you have learned and gathered through the headless way.

You have to become a totally clean slate.
Start everything from the scratch.

Can you do that?

And more importantly, are you WILLING to completely let go everything about the headless way and look at your experience directly through the eyes of a child who has no intellectual knowledge about almost anything?


Please really consider these questions.

If you want to be successful with this investigation, you need to be 100% committed, and you have to put aside everything you have learned, and start from scratch.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:49 am

Hi Vivien

Thanks for your reply
If you want to be successful with this investigation, and you REALLY want to see the illusion of the self, you have to COMPLETELY ABANDON everything you have learned and gathered through the headless way.

You have to become a totally clean slate.
Start everything from the scratch.

Can you do that?

And more importantly, are you WILLING to completely let go everything about the headless way and look at your experience directly through the eyes of a child who has no intellectual knowledge about almost anything?

Yes I am.

Let’s start from scratch then.

Thanks again Vivien
Mike

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:05 pm

Hi again Vivien

Yes am ready to start from scratch as you say- say. So what is the next step?
Thanks again Mike


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