A Feast of Lanterns

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Locutus1452
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A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:47 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is single, stable controlling 'self' - the supposed object of praise, criticism or ownership... What most people would call ... an ego.

What are you looking for at LU?
To experience rather than merely 'understand' the lack of a real 'self'. Over the years I've experienced many different experiences - during meditation but also just standing in the street - that have the flavour of this realisation. But the world crowds in, again. I want these flashes of insight to join up into a continuous, irreversible seeing that can't be unseen.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Appropriately pitched, helpful pointers to something easy to experience and irreversible ... but only once you 'get there'! I'm not a great believer in instant solutions of any sort, not if the result is to last. So I'm prepared to put the effort in and now find myself (semi-retired) and with more time and space to apply myself to whatever's needed.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Practiced Buddhism for many years (which, naturally, has a lot to say on the subject!) including - but not lately - meditation.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:46 pm

Hi Locutus,

I am Jadzia, and if you like we can walk part of the path together and enjoy investigating what this self is and what it isn't.
Over the years I've experienced many different experiences - during meditation but also just standing in the street - that have the flavour of this realisation.
I call this Carrots for Donkeys! ;-)
Getting insights which taste good and then you follow this whiff of lovely smells to find the way....
To experience rather than merely 'understand' the lack of a real 'self'.
Yes, this is the only way, one needs experiential understanding, real knowing as oposed to aquired knowledge.

Are you ready to pack away everything you learned so far and to go on as open minded and as honest as possible?

Love,
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:17 pm

That I am... where do we start?

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:34 pm

That I am... where do we start?
Fine.

Lets start with something we have to agree on, which will help us a lot while walking on.
We work with direct looking (DE, sometimes calles actual experience, too). Only that is considered real which can be experienced directly.
If you stop right now and have a look at everything you can experience, can you experience something different than colour/shape (seeing), sound (hearing), smells, taste, bodily sensations (feelings) or appearing thoughts?
Does this sum it up?

Love
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:11 pm

There is also what I would call 'will' or direction. Something that seems mine other than other less important thoughts like whether my bath is overflowing...

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:08 am

Ok.
How does will appear? In what way is it known?
And what makes it different than a thought about something else?

Love
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:20 am

It takes direct attention. It feels like directED attention. Intention. thoughts may arise but to put them in order and make a decision requires a decider, a director. The analogy would be driving a car.. my brain perceives - almost unconsciously - lots of different incoming signals but some 'one' needs to connect and direct these.
Right now I need to assemble my thoughts (rather than other sensory experience) to give you a sensible reply... that director feels like a different role than one of the many actors.

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:44 pm

Remember, we started here.
We work with direct looking (DE, sometimes calles actual experience, too). Only that is considered real which can be experienced directly.
If you stop right now and have a look at everything you can experience, can you experience something different than colour/shape (seeing), sound (hearing), smells, taste, bodily sensations (feelings) or appearing thoughts?
Does this sum it up?
How does will appear? In what way is it known?
And what makes it different than a thought about something else?
It takes direct attention. It feels like directED attention. Intention. thoughts may arise but to put them in order and make a decision requires a decider, a director. The analogy would be driving a car.. my brain perceives - almost unconsciously - lots of different incoming signals but some 'one' needs to connect and direct these.
Right now I need to assemble my thoughts (rather than other sensory experience) to give you a sensible reply... that director feels like a different role than one of the many actors.
So it takes attention to make will appear or for a willfull action, or where supposedly will/decision is involved?
In direct experience where is brain found?
There seems to be an assembler and director and many others? Can they be found in direct experience? Where/how exactly?

Where does all this turn up? In thoughts, as story? If yes, would you agree with the text written on top?

Love
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:27 pm

It’s my experience - at least at the moment - that mind is not found in experience. It’s what creates it. Makes it possible. I can’t find teeth in what I eat, but I know they make eating possible... they are an agent if you like.

I don’t want to seem argumentative or trying to be clever. It’s just that it appears to me that there’s a difference between sensory impressions (includes thoughts) and what creates a (literally) sensible experience.

Maybe I need another angle of approach here?

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:32 am

It’s my experience - at least at the moment - that mind is not found in experience. It’s what creates it. Makes it possible. I can’t find teeth in what I eat, but I know they make eating possible... they are an agent if you like.
There is a difference between knowing, as in experiential knowing or deep knowing and knowledge aka what is learned, assumed, taken as Itisso without having proven it yourself, deduction, result of logical thinking.

If I would ask you what the weather is like at your place there are several ways to find an answer.
- you go to what you believe the weather is today
- you check the weather page online
- you open the window and have a look

What is needed in this kind of investigation is to look, for that what is there in this very moment.

Could I ask you to forget for our time together everything you ever learned, think you know, all theories, all concepts? And just go for plain looking?

Please, give me a noise you hear right now outside of your room.

Love,
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:36 pm

that would be the television...

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:07 am

that would be the television.
You were not in the room, right?
There is sound, which can be experienced directly. Hearing happens.

What about television?
Can it be 100% known that the sound is sound coming from television?
Without being in the room?

So what is television, a direct experience of colour/form or a DE of thought.

Thoughts can be experienced like in - here is a thought.
Can the content of thought be directly experienced?

Love,
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:47 am

No I was not in the room.
Can it be 100% known that the sound is sound coming from television?
Without being in the room?
There's no doubt that I heard the televison. I'm not sure what the relevance of being in the room is as hearing's as good as seeing at least in so much as one believes the evidence of the senses.

As for
100% known that the sound is sound coming from television?
, well that's more of a philosophical question and it seems to me further rather than closer to DE. I'm aware of these kinds of debate (see https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffma ... anguage=en). They are convincing intellectually but that's not why I'm on on this forum.
Can the content of thought be directly experienced?
If one thinks of the mind as a sixth sense then, no. But that's an intellectual position. But because the minds objects seem so 'close' (unlike an external noise, say) then thoughts appear to me to be different. Privileged in some way that's difficult to explain..

Let me put it this way: noise is produced by the telly, sight by what I see by the world around me etc. Therefore, thoughts need have something that causes them: my mind. Are they just random splutterings? Well of course they are sometimes! Often even. But I am capable of getting them in line and directing them... I can't do that with hearing; sight etc

That is why I say they are 'privileged' i.e. different from other sense experience and not as susceptible to DE.

To be clear, the above is necessarily in words: we're in that medium. But it's still a description of my experience at least at the moment.

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Jadzia
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:09 pm

There's no doubt that I heard the televison. I'm not sure what the relevance of being in the room is as hearing's as good as seeing at least in so much as one believes the evidence of the senses.
What did the senses take in? A sound.
The rest „This is from a television“ is thoughts content, which is not direct experience but knowledge. So there you are in the story and not in the direct experience.
Television is a label for something that is seen.
As for
100% known that the sound is sound coming from television?
, well that's more of a philosophical question and it seems to me further rather than closer to DE. I'm aware of these kinds of debate (see https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffma ... anguage=en). They are convincing intellectually but that's not why I'm on on this forum.
No, not a philosophical question rather a hands on one. Right now we are talking about what can be directly experienced and what is added by thoughts/ content.
Without being in the room, there is no knowing, no direct experience that the sound comes from a television set. This is an assumption appearing in a thought, a probably fitting one, but this is not direct experience.
Can the content of thought be directly experienced?
If one thinks of the mind as a sixth sense then, no. But that's an intellectual position. But because the minds objects seem so 'close' (unlike an external noise, say) then thoughts appear to me to be different. Privileged in some way that's difficult to explain..
Think of what you had for meal this morning.
Can what you had be directly experienced now?
Direct experience is always in the now, in the moment.

Let me put it this way: noise is produced by the telly, sight by what I see by the world around me etc. Therefore, thoughts need have something that causes them: my mind. Are they just random splutterings? Well of course they are sometimes! Often even. But I am capable of getting them in line and directing them... I can't do that with hearing; sight etc
So you differ between something I can influence/ I can’t influence.
Ok. So what the five senses take up can’t be influenced.
Are you the thinker and controller of your thougths? The director of them?
Do you decide what thoughts appear and what not?
To be clear, the above is necessarily in words: we're in that medium. But it's still a description of my experience at least at the moment.
No worry, we do use words and we are pronoun friendly.

Please answer each and every question.

Love
Jadzia

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Locutus1452
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Re: A Feast of Lanterns

Postby Locutus1452 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:44 am

Hi,

In the last week of a project... responses might be sporadic for a short while.
Thought I'd let you know...!

J


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