I am determined to see things differently

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:28 am

Hi Tricksee,

Okay...so we have covered the idea of the body. Moving onto time...there is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:20 am

Hi Kay
But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?
Thoughts coming and going only.
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
The present moment is only ever here 'now'.
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
No, It just is.
How long does the ‘now’ last?
It is ever present
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
The present moment is all there is.Here and now. No beginning no end.
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
In thoughts only.
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
Thoughts
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Only thoughts about time.

Kay The image 'abstract painting' you presented with the letter 'A' seemingly appearing out of it, really seemed to click. Something 'shifted'. As well as the 'experience' of watching myself sleep...

Thank You :0

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:43 pm

Hey Tricksee,
Kay The image 'abstract painting' you presented with the letter 'A' seemingly appearing out of it, really seemed to click. Something 'shifted'. As well as the 'experience' of watching myself sleep...
What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?
Is seeking still going on?


We are nearly done with what is covered in this exploration. There are only a couple of exercises with regards to the idea of time that need to be covered. We can then review what has been explored and see where to go from there.
Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?


Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:52 pm

Hi Kay.

I would like to answer this question before continuing with the exercise.
What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?
Is seeking still going on?
The difference is that before this exploration was started 'i' always seemed to get stuck in a 'loop' of thoughts…a dead end which felt like a brick wall. And through these exercises and with your pointing have been led to what LOOKING really is, hence dissolving the loops…and tumbling down the wall. There is nothing to seek only to LOOK. If I am honest there was a hope,if not expectation that that maybe something would click right away (or at some point) and completely change the way 'i' see.But the emotions still arise and reactions still happen from the belief in thoughts. Insights do occur, some stick some come and go. All I can do is continue to look as situations seem to present themselves. The abstract painting you spoke about has really seemed to make looking simpler. Would you mind answering the same question. Did something click for you right away. Or are there times when you still find yourself getting caught up in thoughts?

Love and gratitude always

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:38 am

Hi Tricksee,
The difference is that before this exploration was started 'i' always seemed to get stuck in a 'loop' of thoughts…a dead end which felt like a brick wall. And through these exercises and with your pointing have been led to what LOOKING really is, hence dissolving the loops…and tumbling down the wall. There is nothing to seek only to LOOK.
So, how does it FEEL now, compared to when you started this exploration to now?
If I am honest there was a hope,if not expectation that that maybe something would click right away (or at some point) and completely change the way 'i' see.But the emotions still arise and reactions still happen from the belief in thoughts.
That is an assumption that because of beliefs there are reactions. What is it exactly that is believing and reacting? Without thought how could this possibly be known? Cause and effect is also the belief in time.

Yes, it is an expectation to think that emotions and so called reactions won’t appear. There has never been a separate self…ever and yet seeming emotions and reactions have appeared…why would that change? Even if the seeming character decided to do some self-improvement…that has nothing to do with emotions and reactions…it is just unfolding in the story of the life of the character. Does THIS moment care how or what it appears AS? No…because like all moments…they pass.
Expectations you may have of what the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like, and how you think life should then look like, and how you should or shouldn’t be like or feel like after the realisation have a habit of getting in the way of being with what IS ie how it appears in each moment.
Insights do occur, some stick some come and go. All I can do is continue to look as situations seem to present themselves. The abstract painting you spoke about has really seemed to make looking simpler. Would you mind answering the same question. Did something click for you right away. Or are there times when you still find yourself getting caught up in thoughts?
There is a yo-yoing phase that is normal and happens to everyone after realising no self. There is no time frame on how long this goes on for. Doubts, confusion and questions will show up, as does the idea of yo-yoing between identifying as/with someone and not identifying as with someone/something. There is actually no one becoming ‘enlightened’…that in itself is a story.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:20 pm

Hi Kay
What is memory exactly?
A Thought about something and a thought about it already gone by/past
What is the memory ‘made of’?
Thoughts
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
Content
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
Now.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Belief in thoughts about time passing, who is believing what… so it is not known
What is the future thought 'made of'
Thoughts
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
Content.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Belief in thoughts about time moving same comment as past who is believing what… so it is not known.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
Nothing
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?
No Difference because it has all happening now

Love Tricksee.

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:27 pm

Hi Kay Just to finish off from the previous exercise.
So, how does it FEEL now, compared to when you started this exploration to now?
It feels lighter, not as serious. Even in the last exercise 'i' actually could not help laughing…almost like having glimmers of realization that this whole thought system is crazy, off it's rocker!!!! who in their right mind would fall for it lol!

Love Tricksee

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:39 pm

Hey Tricksee,
So, how does it FEEL now, compared to when you started this exploration to now?
It feels lighter, not as serious. Even in the last exercise 'i' actually could not help laughing…almost like having glimmers of realization that this whole thought system is crazy, off it's rocker!!!! who in their right mind would fall for it lol!
Lol….lovely!

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

What has changed since we started this exploration, and what hasn’t changed?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:57 am

Hi Kay
Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realized that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?
YES! Oh wait a minute (doubting coming in) No. Nothing it was just a thought lol!
What has changed since we started this exploration, and what hasn’t changed?
Everything and nothing. As mentioned previously that 'i' had already started noticing shifts But felt like 'i' had hit a brick wall and was looping (going no where fast) What has changed is that 'i' now am aware of how to LOOK! The abstract painting image and example you gave of things seeming to appear in it/out of it...really did pop something! How the environment is seen and responded to has shifted. There is a little more ease and relaxation when approaching anything/body/situation, no matter the place/location. Less Tension more chill lol! And what hasn't changed is that it is still the same 'abstract painting'.
Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?
Nothing comes to mind unless you have picked up on anything?

Thank You Kay. With Much gratitude and Love Tricksee

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:11 am

Hi Tricksee,
Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?
Nothing comes to mind unless you have picked up on anything?
Let's see if there is anything that needs clarifying through you answering the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:24 am

Hi Kay I just want to let you know i am working on the questions last sent out and will have my responses completed and posted tomorrow. An interesting thing has popped up around the questions and past thoughts about words, school and exams… I am in the process of Looking at that now and will share that tomorrow.

Love Tricksee

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:00 am

Hi Kay,
I hit a little stumbling block with the questions. I actually started to respond twice but could not complete it. So deleted what I had started to write and stopped to 'LOOK'.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No there is not a separate entity 'self', 'me', 'i', at all or can not be found anywhere, in any shape or form
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
Now this is where I wrote something out a couple of times but could not complete it. So I deleted everything and stopped to take a look, as some very strong emotions started to come up.

The illusion of a separate self is simply comprised of thoughts, and thoughts about those thoughts. A layering of thoughts that then seem to comprise of a story. The content of the thoughts 'i' was identifying with/beleiving was about writing and how 'i' not only did not enjoy it, but found the process of coming up with words to write totally exhausting. Emotions started to rise and a high level of frustration seemed to accompany it. So I stopped, deleted and took a look. (This was repeated twice).

As I looked at this (and it did take 'seemingly' some time)The thoughts took me for a ride into thoughts about the past, seeking and searching for answers. Many thoughts came, and there was story after story. About my first days of school and not speaking the language, to report cards, (excellent verbal skills but needs to apply it in writing was quite a common one). and this went on for awhile and more stories appeared. Then there seemed to be moments of clarity. "Wait a minute, these are just THOUGHTS!!!" and who was believing them? This thought and question bought up some strong fear.

I was looking at them both at home and at work and just to demonstrate how persistent belief in these thoughts seem to be. My husband had been away for a few days and returned early (as I was trying to look at my thoughts) he would not keep quiet, but was asking me question after question about daily stuff (Very distracting) (the image of the abstract painting kept coming to mind) yet 'i' could not seem to stop the frustration 'i' was feeling. After a tiring day I went to sleep and in the morning looking at thoughts came back to the forefront.

On my way to work the same thoughts seemed to still have a strong grip (belief) and fear again was felt. When I arrived at work 'big' distractions came up again. We have Hurricane Dorian, (although weakened) come along the coast line with winds between 120-165 klms an hr ( 'i' work in the oil industry and we provide fuel for homes and businesses) so demand pending the storm sky rocketed, especially for providing fuel to emergency services, hospitals...etc. ( images of the abstract painting kept coming up quite frequently now). And a thought seemed to appear that something does not want me to see, look. It clicked! That was just a thought! The busy-ness of the day did not cease, work continued but the grip the thoughts seemed to have stopped in that moment and still in this moment.
'I' could see how thoughts, the content from past to future were no different they were all simply made up. And yet the fear was so strong and so the distractions (distracting thoughts) did not want to cease...
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


It is very freeing... The difference from before I started this dialogue to now Is the feeling that should some thought arise that I am believing 'i' can 'LOOK' for Now I do not have to because there is only this moment and it is peaceful.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
There has been a feeling ever since I was young that something was missing ,not right, off somehow. And having had 'experiences' not of this world or even involving time... happened so you could say I was aware that there was something else other than this world of thoughts. But I didn't really pay too much attention to them and I played, struggled, in the world of thought. until now 'i' had, had enough. it was do or die...so not one moment really but all of them put together displayed the hopelessness in the world of thought.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Decision,intention,free will,choice and control all of theses words describe a thought, a belief. Things seem to happen because of thoughts, and believing or not (is still a thought). How does it work? It either works or doesn't it depends on what/ how the belief in a thought presents itself. The answer to the second question with 'My experience' seems to cover this in essence Thoughts seem to work because they are believed to be true,

6) Anything to add?
Kay these words and the last couple of days have exhausted me! I know it's a thought but the word bed feels good about now. lol!

Good night and Thank you. Love Tricksee

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:09 am

Hello Tricksee,

It seems that we have further exploring to do…and that is what these questions were about finding...so all is good. In this post we will address the idea of sensation and thoughts going hand-in-hand, and in following posts, I would like to address the issue of "frustration" that came up for you and to address the idea of fear.
As I looked at this (and it did take 'seemingly' some time)The thoughts took me for a ride into thoughts about the past, seeking and searching for answers. Many thoughts came, and there was story after story. About my first days of school and not speaking the language, to report cards, (excellent verbal skills but needs to apply it in writing was quite a common one). and this went on for awhile and more stories appeared. Then there seemed to be moments of clarity. "Wait a minute, these are just THOUGHTS!!!" and who was believing them? This thought and question bought up some strong fear.
Thoughts can have a stuckness if they are habitually associated with recurring sensations in the body. Let’s say, for example that you were bitten by a dog as a child. Now, every time you see a dog you can feel the pin pricks of fear as they arise in the chest or the churning in the pit of the stomach, and you can hear the shortness of your breath, your heart speeding up and with all of that comes a plethora of stories about the dog that bit you all those years ago, and stories on how dogs are dangerous and bad etc.

When you become aware of these associations, it’s a good thing to start having a dig around, as you will find that usually the sensation in the body (labelled as fear) is being accepted as proof that the associated thoughts and ideas are correct. In other words, that the sensation and thoughts go hand in hand. When you begin to have a look you will notice that they are unrelated phenomena that happen to arise at the same time.

Let’s have a look and see if the thought and sensation go hand-in-hand. In other words, do thoughts evoke sensations.

Put aside 10-15 minutes and sit quietly somewhere, where you won’t be disturbed. Take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and then close your eyes.

1. Think of a story that brings up a bodily sensation, be it a sensation labelled as anxiety, fear, dread or whatever, but make sure that is one that you can feel in the body that it not too intense that it overwhelms you, but one that you are definitely aware of.

2. Then with your eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link of some kind between the thought and the sensation. You are looking to find if there is something that actually links the thought/story with the sensation labelled as ‘anxiety, fear, dread' or whatever.

3. If the sensation starts to dissipate, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt clearly again, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. You are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.

4. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.

Do this exercise of looking for the link between thought story and sensation at least 3-4 times throughout each day, for the next 2-3 days, making sure to look very carefully. Let me know what how you go and what you find.


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:09 pm

Hi Kay We had lost power due to Dorian, and a few other glitches along the way, but looks like I am able to post this time around.
Do this exercise of looking for the link between thought story and sensation at least 3-4 times throughout each day, for the next 2-3 days, making sure to look very carefully. Let me know what how you go and what you find.
There were several things that came up while I was doing this (going over the what I could see re sensations and thought).
While doing the exercise It seemed as though a thought would come then be followed by a sensation.
e.g. my son told me that his transplanted kidney is starting to fail (after 20 yrs) and he was told that he would have to go back on dialysis. And he has opted not to do that (because he did not want to go through all the complications and continuing issues of that again). He was quite emotional (angry/frustrated while he was telling me)
And while I was listening a sensation of fear struck me. Then my mind would real off in different scenarios of the consequences of the decision he has made. I get quite tearful now thinking about it. so it seems that the thoughts come first in this instance and then the emotions /sensations come.

The next example is that especially when I fly there is a fear that grips me first a claustrophobic fear I feel it in the body (everything closing in and no way out)… the thoughts seem to come after the sensation has already shown up.

It is almost like the chicken and the egg and when I really look neither the chicken or the egg exist. which ever way they show up sensation/thought. or thought and sensation. I feel like I am looping again trying to understand (get it) and then there is a feeling that this is all being seen which ever way from nowhere. So sometimes the penny seems to drop and other times looping seems to happen Something/nothing is trying to understand Nothing.


Love Tricksee

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Hello Tricksee,

Sorry to hear the news about your son, that must be very difficult for you.

I would suggest that you go back and read the instructions of the exercise very carefully, because what you are doing is just telling me that a sensation and thought appear side by side. That is not what the exercise is about. It is about finding an ACTUAL link between the thought and the sensation.

Perhaps if we have an indepth LOOK at fear, it might be of some assistance.

When ‘fear’ appears, become aware of everything that is happening…ie bodily sensations, thoughts etc and then close the eyes and do the following:-

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word F E A R or the thought “I am “scared/fearful” as typewritten word/s in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead.

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself, fearful?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?


2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the fearful self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the word/s ‘yes’ or ‘yes, this is the fearful self’ across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear, or that it is fearful?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are an actual self that is fearful as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation - and remember to breathe normally – in and out through the nose. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’, or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS (appearing).

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of fear
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’, or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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