I am determined to see things differently

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:32 am

Hey Tricksee,
And if you look closely, without thought, how is it known that a gap has been reached?
There is no thought, simply quiet when a gap has been reached, a space, some seem longer than others. I did notice that the "mind" does not seem to feel comfortable with the gap at times and so another thought follows...
My apologies…it seems my language is not clear.

Without thought saying that there is a gap between thoughts, how exactly would it be known that a gap has been reached?
So, sit quietly and observe thought and also observe thoughts throughout your waking day. To observe each and every thought, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts which seemingly denotes an ending of one thought and the beginning of another. So noticing the gap helps you to see each thought as it appears.
Let me know how you go.
When I was really "watching" thoughts felt very odd they would come and go out of nowhere, made up in each moment... Sometimes they seemed to follow a certain subject line and at other times random thoughts popped in...Huh..
Yes…wonderful! Nice observing! So what you noticed in this exercise will help you with the next exercise. You will have to observe thought very carefully again, to be able to respond to the questions from a place of careful observation and not from a place of thinking! Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:56 am

Hello Kay
Without thought saying that there is a gap between thoughts, how exactly would it be known that a gap has been reached?

I feel like a dog chasing it's tail with this question!!! Without thought it just is…
Where are they coming from and going to?
From nowhere to nowhere.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Nothing
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought?
No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Yes
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Not shore how to word this. Thoughts just appear and disappear but if I notice something like pins and needles sensation in my hand then thoughts seem to follow that sensation…

These questions feel totally mind blowing like they are dissolving everything…

Thank you for this and your patience Kay.

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:41 am

Hello Tricksee,
Without thought saying that there is a gap between thoughts, how exactly would it be known that a gap has been reached?
I feel like a dog chasing it's tail with this question!!! Without thought it just is…
Without thought saying “this is a gap”, how would it be known? It wouldn’t! :) Just a prelude at seeing how thoughts work.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Yes
So if you can't pick and choose thoughts, or predict your next thoughts...then how do you stop thinking a thought in the middle exactly?

How did you know that you wanted to stop a thought in the middle and how did you know you wanted to stop a particular thought in the middle?

Did you actually do anything to stop the thought..or the thought just stopped AND then another thought saying "I stopped that thought in the middle of the thought", appeared?

Where does a thought end and another begin to know where the middle of a thought is?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Not shore how to word this. Thoughts just appear and disappear but if I notice something like pins and needles sensation in my hand then thoughts seem to follow that sensation…
How does thought do that exactly? How does thought, which is not an entity and is not aware, actually become aware of a sensation and then follow it?

I want you to have another look and then answer the question.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice:-
Is there an organised sequence, or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


We already did the following exercise, but let’s redo it as a means to answer your own query about thought following sensation. You need to keep revisiting exercises I give you throughout your day, every day, and apply them when needed, so that you reaffirm over and over, what you become aware of when doing the exercises. Doing the exercises once as a means to answer my questions isn’t enough, nor is just sitting and pondering what we are exploring, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus/attention does. In other words, watch how you are aware of only what you are aware of in that moment.

Focus on focussing attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

These questions feel totally mind blowing like they are dissolving everything…
Yes, they are designed to deconstruct the idea of the separate self and any and all places the idea may hide :)

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:43 pm

Hi Kay
So if you can't pick and choose thoughts, or predict your next thoughts...then how do you stop thinking a thought in the middle exactly?
It was a thought… I see it Kay!
How did you know that you wanted to stop a thought in the middle and how did you know you wanted to stop a particular thought in the middle?
Hmm Yes when I looked at it again i saw the thought of I know I can stop in the middle of the next thought and I did. so it was all thought. it seems so automated and without really looking it can be missed…
Did you actually do anything to stop the thought..or the thought just stopped AND then another thought saying "I stopped that thought in the middle of the thought", appeared?
That is exactly what happened. Nothing! I actually did nothing to stop the thought. It did stop and was followed by another thought "I stopped the thought in the middle of the thought."
Where does a thought end and another begin to know where the middle of a thought is?
It Just really appears out of nowhere. When I am actually looking at where they start there do not seem to be any thoughts…
How does thought do that exactly? How does thought, which is not an entity and is not aware, actually become aware of a sensation and then follow it?
When you ask like that. It cannot…
Thank you for this. This forum was recommended to me, because when I was "looking" before, and I thought I was Lol! it always felt like I was looping and I was aware of it looping but could not break free of it. I spoke with Eshwar and he suggested this forum and you as a guide.
I just want to let you know this is really helping me understand what "LOOKING" really means… I will continue with the rest of the exercise and get back to you.

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:17 pm

Hey Tricksee,

Nice LOOKING! As you are starting to see, nothing is really known without thought and they can be slippery little suckers that seem to get passed the careful LOOKING. But it does become easier and easier.
I just want to let you know this is really helping me understand what "LOOKING" really means… I will continue with the rest of the exercise and get back to you
LOOKING is the key and you are doing a great job of looking :)

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:31 am

Hi Kay
Focus on focussing attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
It Moves by itself
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
No
What moves attention?
Nothing
Is thought in control of attention?
No

When I look at thoughts it seems i can either get pulled in by them or not and they can be very subtle. It seems like I may have a choice. either believe them or not, and yet even this line of thinking seems off... Does that make sense? Lol even the question feels weird ... off somehow..

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:24 pm

Hi Kay,
I just want to let you know I will be away Friday after work and will be back Monday night. If I do not hear back from you I will continue Looking and sitting with the exercises that you have given.

Love and gratitude Tricksee :)

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:31 pm

Hey Tricksee,

Sorry Tricksee....I couldn't respond yesterday as the forum was down. No one could get in for some time and I gave up. It was lovely to see the forum up and working this morning.
When I look at thoughts it seems i can either get pulled in by them or not and they can be very subtle. It seems like I may have a choice. either believe them or not, and yet even this line of thinking seems off... Does that make sense? Lol even the question feels weird ... off somehow..
Because there is still the idea that you are the doer, which is okay. The idea of being the doer is quite 'ingrained' and takes time to see through it....it takes time, even beyond this exploration. It will be seen that there is no doer...but it takes time for that belief to unravel. But we can have a look at the idea with the following exercise.

So, let's see if you really have a choice in what you are aware of.

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black....

Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?

Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?

Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?

Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:16 am

Hello Kay.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Choice in of itself is an Idea a thought…about control?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
all of these;simply are what they are Thoughts about closing of Eyes the colour black
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
No I would of had to of had a thought that my eyes were open followed by a thought to close them.
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?


No because it is what is is Black=image/colour
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
Nothing it. it as it is!!!!

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:02 am

Hi Tricksee,
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
Nothing it. it as it is!!!!
Yes, it is at it is!
So, can you control or choose whether awareness seems to be more focussed on thoughts, than anything else in that moment? Or whether or not you are aware of sound, taste etc, in the moment?

If we take this one step further….there is assumption that thought is different to sound, and sound is different to taste, and taste is different to smell and smell is different to sensation. Without thought, how would this be known?

Are they really different and are they really separate individual ‘things’? Or what is, THIS/experience and coloursoundsmellssensationthoughttaste.are synonymous?


Okay, so we have begun to look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Let’s continue with that.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:00 pm

Hi Kay
So, can you control or choose whether awareness seems to be more focused on thoughts, than anything else in that moment? Or whether or not you are aware of sound, taste etc, in the moment?

No you cannot control and/or choose what awareness seems to be focused on in the moment.
Are they really different and are they really separate individual ‘things’? Or what is, THIS/experience and coloursoundsmellssensationthoughttaste.are synonymous?
They are not different or separate. nothing changes because nothing is happening or seems to be happening.
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?
It is not controlled it is only thought to be controlled by the labels of "palm" and "turned" and "down" (a conditioning of sorts)
Does a thought control it ?

No it is just movement happening, and thought labels, the movements and thinks, it is in control.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
only through thought thinking it is a controller and the thought itself is nothing from nowhere.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

It seems to happen automatically like a pre-programming, conditioning, can thought be that subtle and quick?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No it all coming from nowhere an invention if you will...lol!


Thank you for this Kay. Just a reminder I am going away after work and will be back Monday night. I will check for any posts before I leave. if there are none I will continue with this exercise.

Much Love and gratitude:)

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:02 pm

Hey Tricksee,
Just a reminder I am going away after work and will be back Monday night. I will check for any posts before I leave. if there are none I will continue with this exercise.
Thank you for the reminder :)
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
It seems to happen automatically like a pre-programming, conditioning, can thought be that subtle and quick?
What is it exactly that is or has been pre-programmed?

Have you ever found yourself idly scratching an itch without being aware, firstly, of the itch, and then of any thoughts about scratching it; or being aware of any movement to scratch it? Or is itch scratching just happening?

Have a careful look at this and let me know what you find.
The question “can thought be that subtle and quick”, is like the philosophical question "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?


About now, I like to introduce the following exercise, since we are looking at hands! This exercise helps in seeing how the illusion of the body seems to be real. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:08 am

Hi Kay
What is it exactly that is or has been pre-programmed?
I was looking for words /explanation I think conditioning is just a word regarding which cartoon character I am choosing to play in the moment…
Have you ever found yourself idly scratching an itch without being aware, firstly, of the itch, and then of any thoughts about scratching it; or being aware of any movement to scratch it? Or is itch scratching just happening?
Just scratching Happening (without any labelling)
Have a careful look at this and let me know what you find.
The question “can thought be that subtle and quick”, is like the philosophical question "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
I did look at this for awhile and the answer is no the tree does not make a sound when there is no one to hear it. So the same with "can thought be that subtle and quick" if there is no one (character) to witness it (ask the question) than thought just is…
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Huh. Yes I see it
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes I also notice that thought wants to label them…
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
Only thought and mental constructs link them.

Thank You Kay.

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:54 am

Hi Tricksee,
What is it exactly that is or has been pre-programmed?
I was looking for words /explanation I think conditioning is just a word regarding which cartoon character I am choosing to play in the moment…
And where exactly is this “I” that is choosing which cartoon character to play? Is there an actual choosing or there is a noticing of what character seems to playing in the moment?

Before you respond to the above question, let's do the following exercise to give you hand to look at it before responding.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Have a careful look at this and let me know what you find.
The question “can thought be that subtle and quick”, is like the philosophical question "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
I did look at this for awhile and the answer is no the tree does not make a sound when there is no one to hear it. So the same with "can thought be that subtle and quick" if there is no one (character) to witness it (ask the question) than thought just is…
I don’t know what you mean when you say that “thought just is”. I want you to look very carefully at the following.

A thought is known, is it not? Are you not the knower/awarer of thoughts when they appear? Is it possible to have a thought without knowing that you have had a thought? In other words, can a thought happen without the knowing of it? Can a thought sit somewhere, unknown, waiting for it to be noticed?


A tree doesn’t make a sound in the forest if no one is around…how can it? If the sound labelled as ‘falling tree’ isn’t experience as you currently find it, then it is just thoughts about sound and has no substance.

Where is this tree and where is this forest? If colour labelled as tree and forest are not your current actual experience…then they are imaginary thought fluff. If your current experience is of colours labelled as tree and forest…then thought is pointing to what IS, in the moment ie to actual experience as you presently find it. The other factor in this whole philosophical question is, how, without thought, could it possibly be known that it is the falling tree that is making the sound? Does colour make sound?
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Huh. Yes I see it
Lovely! So you can see that it is only a thought that links sensation to sight. And here is a great video clip that shows how there is no correlation between them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:03 am

Hello Kay
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
This is truly quite amazing I thought I was choosing but as I continued to look those qualities/preferences did just pop up by themselves. When I really looked at it.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
There was really no choosing, just happening.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No I arose.
And where exactly is this “I” that is choosing which cartoon character to play? Is there an actual choosing or there is a noticing of what character seems to playing in the moment?
There is a noticing. "I" is no where to be found, it is fictitious, made up.
A thought is known, is it not? Are you not the knower/awarer of thoughts when they appear? Is it possible to have a thought without knowing that you have had a thought? In other words, can a thought happen without the knowing of it? Can a thought sit somewhere, unknown, waiting for it to be noticed?
Yes there is an awareness of thoughts. It is when a fictitious I seems to appear and claim them with labels turning them into something they are not. Including the I itself.

The video was very helpful in seeing though illusion. It reminds me of amputies saying they still feel an itch or pain in a limb they no longer have.

Thank You Kay


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