I am determined to see things differently

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Tricksee
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I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:51 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I am not something that has been passed down from person to person. "conditioned"

What are you looking for at LU?
A way to see through the conditioning, clarity on who I am, freedom, I am feeling hesitant and afraid right now but feel I need to push through this. It is like stepping into the unknown. I do not want to be afraid anymore.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A way of seeing differently. A way of truly looking and seeing. I feel I am bobbing around on the surface. A way out of this. Pointers of where to go how to look and see the truth of who I am. Release! (I would like Kay to be my Guide)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A Course In Miracles. I have tried inquiry. listened to Ramana, Nisargadatta, The work Byron Katie.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:46 pm

Hey Tricksee,

I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:02 am

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.
Hello Kay I have read the disclaimer and the other links

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:04 pm

Hello Tricksee,

If you click on the "preview" button before submitting your post, you will be able to see what your post looks like and be able to make changes before actually submitting it. You many have to watch the video on how to use the quote function a couple of times. :)

Thank you for reading confirming that you have read the links, including the disclaimer.

Just so that we are clear, to have the realisation that there is no separate self, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice. Check in and see if that is how committed you actually are.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:15 pm

How will life change?
I do not expect life to change but simply the way I interpret/see it.
How will you change?
I will not be reactive "Tense" But simply allowing/accepting and peaceful.
What will be different?
The way I perceive/see things, people and situations everything simply flowing through.
What is missing?
The doer, The i.

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:40 am

Hey Tricksee,

The purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like, and how you think life should then look like, and how you should or shouldn’t be like or feel. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of this exploration and can also blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There are no trumpeting angels, sky lighting fireworks or huge signs letting you know that you have had the realisation. It is more a very subtle shift that can be missed, especially if there are expectations, as well as comparisons to how others have experienced the realisation.
How will life change?
I do not expect life to change but simply the way I interpret/see it.
Okay, good. If there are expectations that haven’t been noticed, they will appear during this exploration. But yes, perception changes as what actually IS becomes clearer and thoughts that overlay and veil what IS become known and seen through.
How will you change?
I will not be reactive "Tense" But simply allowing/accepting and peaceful.
There is no “I” now, and never has been an “I” who is reactive or tense, or that does or does not allow/accept peace! There are thoughts about and “I” reacting…but how does a concept, an idea, actually react? The separate self is a concept - an abstract idea, and ideas do nothing and know nothing!
What will be different?
The way I perceive/see things, people and situations everything simply flowing through.
Life is simply lifing now, and always has done. There is no one/no thing that is controlling life, or that is living life, and there is no one who is being “done through”. For something to be done through would mean that separation is real…and the idea of separation is just that...an idea, a concept.

Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after 'awakening'.
What is missing,?
The doer, The i.
Sorry, I don’t understand your answer. You are saying that the doer, the “I” is missing. If that is the case then you don’t need to be here, as you have seen that there is no “I”, therefore there cannot be a doer! So if you are actually wanting to find the doer and the "I", then this isn't the place to come looking to find!

So, what is missing, if anything?


As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:03 am

So, what is missing, if anything?
Hi Kay Maybe I was using too few words in reply to this question I was responding to what expectations i have of what realization of "no self" may look like.
and to me it would look like and feel like there is no i or doer because I feel like the doer. I am not sure if that is any clearer?

i have been going through some shifts and changes both in perception and most recently my body, or parts of it, simply freeze for a moment. For example; i move a cup toward my mouth to take a drink and it freezes for a short time. I just wait and laugh and then after awhile i can move my arm again I do not feel restricted or afraid. it can happen when I go to cross my legs or uncross them. This comes and goes. There are times when i think I should be furious at something but am not and I am speaking but wondering who is speaking... So many things but they all come and go they do not remain. So that is why I responded to the question of what my expectation of realization to notice that the I or doer is missing. Because I do notice it at times....

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise)
.

The fridge humming

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forgetmenot
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:58 am

Hello Tricksee,
So, what is missing, if anything?
Hi Kay Maybe I was using too few words in reply to this question I was responding to what expectations i have of what realization of "no self" may look like.
and to me it would look like and feel like there is no i or doer because I feel like the doer. I am not sure if that is any clearer?
So have a careful look here...is this “feeling” an actual body sensation or is it just an idea, a thought?
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise)
The fridge humming
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the fridge humming? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is the fridge humming?

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a "fridge humming" or is it thought that suggests it?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:15 pm

So have a careful look here...is this “feeling” an actual body sensation or is it just an idea, a thought?
Hey Sandy I sat with this on numerous occasions and I kept noticing every time I tried to look, that i was searching thinking.
I could sense it was in the wrong direction but could not seem to just pull it in to Looking.Looking meant thinking trying to figure it out There seemed to be a thread,wisp of understanding but the thinking would keep coming in and clouding everything.
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the fridge humming? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is the fridge humming?
Memory?.. thoughts...
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a "fridge humming" or is it thought that suggests it?
The sound is just a sound
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
Sound.

Just an FYI i will be away this weekend leaving tonight Friday and returning Sunday night So I will not be able to post again until then But if you do ask me another question before I leave I can take it with me and respond when I return. I am in Nova Scotia Canada AST Time Zone I am leaving at 6pm AST. This is some thing I will be doing for awhile and there is no access to communication at the moment. some times I may be leaving Thursday evenings but I will let you know when/if that occurs.

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:51 am

Hi Tricksee,

My name is Kay…not Sandy.
So have a careful look here...is this “feeling” an actual body sensation or is it just an idea, a thought?
I sat with this on numerous occasions and I kept noticing every time I tried to look, that i was searching thinking.
I could sense it was in the wrong direction but could not seem to just pull it in to Looking.Looking meant thinking trying to figure it out There seemed to be a thread,wisp of understanding but the thinking would keep coming in and clouding everything.
Okay…this isn’t difficult. When you think of a doer, is it a feeling or a thought? When the thought “I am the doer” or “I am doing……...(fill in the blank).” is there an actual body sensation that goes with that thought or not?
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the fridge humming? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is the fridge humming?
Memory?.. thoughts...
Please READ THE QUESTION carefully. It says WITHOUT THOUGHT, HOW IS IT KNOWN THAT THE SOUND HEARD IS THE FRIDGE HUMMING?

If you are not going to read what I write very carefully and thoroughly…then I will find you another guide. I don’t have the time nor the inclination to repeat myself over and over because time isn’t taken to actually read what I am writing.

To realise that there is no separate self, first, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice.

Second, you must be open with a willingness to set aside your current beliefs about how things are and engage in rigorous inquiry. No-one can give this to you.

Your beliefs might rush in saying, “Yeah, but…”, “OK, but what about…?”, “I was taught that…”, “My other teacher or the book I read said…” All this must be pushed aside and sometimes quite aggressively.

Third, you must engage in active listening. Listen carefully to the words your guide is using. Be sure you are clear on the context within which the words are being used. Sometimes, when you review what was asked or said, you realize that what you thought you heard versus what was actually said are two different things.

Fourth, this ties in with number 2… practical application… You can’t just sit and ponder, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action. Do the work.

Fifth, be 100% honest with your guide and with yourself. You can’t cheat your way through this. Wherever you are in your understanding or lack thereof is fine, but your guide can’t help you if you are withholding. Withholding is unfair both to the guide and yourself.
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a "fridge humming" or is it thought that suggests it?
The sound is just a sound
Your answer does not answer my question directly...ie that is not the question. Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a fridge humming, or is it a thought that suggests this?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
Sound.
Yes…it is AE of sound. So thought points to sound and overlays the raw experience with a label and then overlays the sound further with thoughts about the label. In other words…thought points to the sound and labels it ‘humming’, then it further suggests that the humming is coming from a fridge and then further postulates why the humming is happening, what a fridge is for etc etc etc. All that story coming from raw experience labelled as ‘sound’!
Just an FYI i will be away this weekend leaving tonight Friday and returning Sunday night So I will not be able to post again until then But if you do ask me another question before I leave I can take it with me and respond when I return. I am in Nova Scotia Canada AST Time Zone I am leaving at 6pm AST. This is some thing I will be doing for awhile and there is no access to communication at the moment. some times I may be leaving Thursday evenings but I will let you know when/if that occurs.
Thanks for letting me know. You can only respond when you can…life continues to life…and that’s okay.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:43 am

Hi Kay Not Sandy Sorry about that.
Okay…this isn’t difficult. When you think of a doer, is it a feeling or a thought? When the thought “I am the doer” or “I am doing……...(fill in the blank).” is there an actual body sensation that goes with that thought or not?
"I am doing nothing." There is no Body sensation.
While I was away I kept looking at the idea of a "doer" I was having a cup of tea and eating a cookie. I was thinking this is a great tasting cookie and I was savoring the flavor, then my mind went to another thought can't remember what, but then my attention fell back on eating my cookie and I noticed while I was distracted with another thought I did not taste the cookie!
Please READ THE QUESTION carefully. It says WITHOUT THOUGHT, HOW IS IT KNOWN THAT THE SOUND HEARD IS THE FRIDGE HUMMING?[/quote

Without thought I would not know what the sound was.
Your answer does not answer my question directly...ie that is not the question. Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a fridge humming, or is it a thought that suggests this?
It is a thought that suggests it

Thank You Kay

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:53 am

Hi Kay I am not sure what the issue is but I could not get the quote and my responses to display separately other than the first one?

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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 am

Hello Tricksee,
While I was away I kept looking at the idea of a "doer" I was having a cup of tea and eating a cookie. I was thinking this is a great tasting cookie and I was savoring the flavor, then my mind went to another thought can't remember what, but then my attention fell back on eating my cookie and I noticed while I was distracted with another thought I did not taste the cookie!
Lovely insight! There can only be what we are aware of in the moment, and it is really difficult to be focussed on more than one experience at a time.

Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Please READ THE QUESTION carefully. It says WITHOUT THOUGHT, HOW IS IT KNOWN THAT THE SOUND HEARD IS THE FRIDGE HUMMING?
Without thought I would not know what the sound was.
Exactly. It simply is what it is. It is known because you are knowing of it…but what it is cannot be known. It is only thought that overlays the knowingknown with a label, and then further suggests what that label means and points to.
Your answer does not answer my question directly...ie that is not the question. Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is a fridge humming, or is it a thought that suggests this?
It is a thought that suggests it
Great! Being clear about this is important as we move through this exploration.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Kay
Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
No because thought distorts the sensation.

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Tricksee
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Re: I am determined to see things differently

Postby Tricksee » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:06 pm

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Only colour and a thought about apple.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No
However, is an apple actually known?
No


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