asking for forgetmenot as guide

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summiru2
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asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:10 am

Hi KAy,
This is Rami, can you please start the discussion here?

Thank you.

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:13 am

Hi Ravi,

I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer, the other links and that you watched and learned how to use the quote function, and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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summiru2
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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:06 am

Regarding disclaimer
I am not using any substances. I am ready to question all of my assumptions and beliefs.

Terms and conditions
I am 27 years old. I stick to the guidelines of the forum while posting. I'll be honest during thel process and focused.



What Liberation unleashed is not.
It is not about achieving anything or changing anything.
Just seeing the assumed self as it is.
I know the quoting of the text

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:21 am

Hey Ravi,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function :)

I also appreciate reading that you are ready to investigate all assumptions and beliefs, because to have the realisation that there is no separate self, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea ie an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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summiru2
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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:14 am

Hi KAy,

How will life change?
What is life? It is just a sound(word).

How will you change?
"I am" a center identified a name called rami,"my body". with a nationality, with set of experiences accumulated from earliest days of childhood. I see world through the old experiences. All the things tagged as myself, I believe this is not "myself", I would free from all the false definitions of myself.


What will be different?
There shouldn't be any false identity anymore.

What is missing?
Clarity

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:16 am

Hello Rami,

My apologies…I have been calling you Ravi!

Can you please use the quote function when answering questions. It keeps the posts easy to read and follow.

The purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like and how you think life should then look like and how you should or shouldn’t be like or feel. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of this exploration and can also blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There are no trumpeting angels, sky lighting fireworks or huge signs letting you know that you have had the realisation. It is more than likely a very subtle shift that can be missed, especially if there are expectations, as well as comparisons to how others have experienced the realisation.
How will life change?
What is life? It is just a sound(word).
No…I want to know your expectations/desires. How are you hoping/wanting life to change?
How will you change?
"I am" a center identified a name called rami,"my body". with a nationality, with set of experiences accumulated from earliest days of childhood. I see world through the old experiences. All the things tagged as myself, I believe this is not "myself", I would free from all the false definitions of myself.
What exactly is it that will be "free from all the false definitions of myself"
And if you are freed from those false definitions, who/what would you be then?

What will be different?
There shouldn't be any false identity anymore.
Well at least that is a clear expectation. There is no you who is the author of thought, or who controls what SEEMS to be happening. Whether or not false identity happens is not in your control, and thoughts about who or what you are, are not in your control either.

What is seen cannot be unseen. But that does not mean that you can never get lost in the story again. It’s like watching a movie and getting sucked into it. Once you look, you know: it’s a movie, not real life. So once you look, you know it’s a story and not reality.
What is missing?
Clarity
Clarity is never missing. There are thoughts about clarity being missing, but you are never not aware of colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or the face value of thought. Thoughts do not confirm clarity. Direct/actual experience does.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:35 pm

The purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like and how you think life should then look like and how you should or shouldn’t be like or feel. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of this exploration and can also blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There are no trumpeting angels, sky lighting fireworks or huge signs letting you know that you have had the realisation. It is more than likely a very subtle shift that can be missed, especially if there are expectations, as well as comparisons to how others have experienced the realisation.
How will life change?

What is life? It is just a sound(word).
There shouldn't be any more contradiction with actuality. For example if job is gone then it should be accepted but there should not any daydreams like what would have happened if I haven't had lost my job like that. There shouldn't any escape from the actual problem. Whatever comes into the experience it should be experienced as it is whether it is pleasure or pain.
No…I want to know your expectations/desires. How are you hoping/wanting life to change?
How will you change?
"I am" a center identified a name called rami,"my body". with a nationality, with set of experiences accumulated from earliest days of childhood. I see world through the old experiences. All the things tagged as myself, I believe this is not "myself", I would free from all the false definitions of myself.
What exactly is it that will be "free from all the false definitions of myself"
Suppose I take myself as Rami, but am I the sound "Rami"? I identify myself with the reading of J krishnamurti, Nisargatta, am I their teaching?. I attached to myriad of things like people(mother,J Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargaddata, Rupert Spira, Fredirich Nietzsche,friends), things, activities etc. I should see that I am not the things I am attached or the thoughts or experiences. That is freeing from the false self.
And if you are freed from those false definitions, who/what would you be then?
If there is nothing to claim as me there is no false me, that's it.
What will be different?
There shouldn't be any false identity anymore.
Well at least that is a clear expectation. There is no you who is the author of thought, or who controls what SEEMS to be happening. Whether or not false identity happens is not in your control, and thoughts about who or what you are, are not in your control either.
Please tell me how can you say that, there is no authority, what is that thing answering all these questions?
What is seen cannot be unseen. But that does not mean that you can never get lost in the story again. It’s like watching a movie and getting sucked into it. Once you look, you know: it’s a movie, not real life. So once you look, you know it’s a story and not reality.
What is missing?
Who does the act of seeing? Who finds it is just a story? If it is like watching movie, who is witnessing movie, does it mean movie realizes it self that there is no witness apart from it?
Clarity
Clarity is never missing. There are thoughts about clarity being missing, but you are never not aware of color, sound, smell, taste, sensation or the face value of thought. Thoughts do not confirm clarity. Direct/actual experience does.
Would you elaborate the underlined text?
What is the difference between the thought and the actual experience. How come a thought come into existence and hinder the AE?
Kay

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:23 am

Hi Rami,

I know you have a lot of questions. For now, put all questions aside because they will be answered as we move through this exploration. Don't try to force answers to come...because this exploration is not about answering questions with the 'right' answer!

Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and require some practice. Try leaving expectations about how life/you will it be to the side. Expectations are thoughts about how things can be in an imagined future. And thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate experience, noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found. Looking is the key. All it really takes is to notice that its happening (and has always been happening). In fact we can't not be looking... as long as we're alive and kicking. Noticing it is simply a shift in perception from thought to 'what's here'.

So, as stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:15 pm

Hi Kay,
It's 1AM here. I have heard various sounds. One among them is barking from distant place, first it was just a sound then the label bark popped in the mind immediately . Similarity with the other sounds. First it was just a sound then mind had given it's name and origin etc.

Thank you.

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:47 am

Hello Rami,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
barking from distant place
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is barking from distant place? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is barking?

Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "barking”, or is it thought that suggests it?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘barking’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:02 pm

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is barking from distant place? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is barking?
Old experiences are telling it as barking.
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "barking”, or is it thought that suggests it?
Just sound is there, sound has nothing to do with the identification with the word. Thought is attributing the sound with a label.
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘barking’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
Actual experience is just a sound.

Thanks Kay.

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:16 pm

Hello Rami,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is barking from distant place? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is barking?
Old experiences are telling it as barking.
Old experiences points to the past. There is no such thing as the past or past experiences as time is a concept. What is it exactly that is experiencing and has had past experiences?

WITHOUT THOUGHT it cannot be known that the sound is “barking” or that the barking is from a distant place! It is impossible for it to be known that it is barking or that it is happening in a distant place!

You are going to have to read what I write very carefully and very thoroughly so you that you see what I am pointing at. The question said WITHOUT THOUGHT. So read what is written very carefully.
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "barking”, or is it thought that suggests it?
Just sound is there, sound has nothing to do with the identification with the word. Thought is attributing the sound with a label.
Lovely, yes
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘barking’? Is it AE of smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
Actual experience is just a sound.
Yes! And even the label ‘sound’ is an overlay! But thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thought and the label 'sound' is pointing to actual experience/THIS exactly as it is.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:21 pm

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Actually there are just sensations(like shapes, colors, sound, smell, touch, taste etc) and thoughts occur along with them.
However, is an apple actually known?
Succession of thoughts projecting and strengthening the idea apple. When it is known that is thought, that is past and it is not AE.

Thanks Kay.

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:34 am

Rami,

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Actually there are just sensations(like shapes, colors, sound, smell, touch, taste etc) and thoughts occur along with them.

So, can an 'apple' be found in actual experience?

Please don't use the word 'sensation' as an overall label for actual experience. The label 'sensation' is given to so called body sensations and will become confusing. Confusion appears throughout this exploration...so let's not use language to confuse it further :)
However, is an apple actually known?
Succession of thoughts projecting and strengthening the idea apple. When it is known that is thought, that is past and it is not AE.
So is an 'apple' actually known?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: asking for forgetmenot as guide

Postby summiru2 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Hi Kay,
Following are the details of last excercise,

Clock - color, movement, sound
Holding pen- color, texure of the surface
Holding tea glass - roughness of steel, sensation, color
Sip of tea - sensation, sweetness and liquidity, unpleasant thought because of the improperly prepared tea
Piece of cloth - first then color then color name and then type of the cloth, then simultaneous thoughts
Umbrella- First color then it's name
Food - color and smell, it's taste and sensation while taking the morsel of food into the mouth
Flower on the terrace - first color then the words flower, leaves, branches etc

By the by your grand child is cute.

Thanks Kay


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