why I suffer?

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neonder
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why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:06 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that I is nothing but a concept or an idea but I am so used to it now that I can't see it as idea but identify it as a reality.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to end suffering, fear of humiliation, fear of getting hurt, fear of judgement and live a more creative and constructive life. I fear failure and the hurt, disappointment that follows it.
This fear of failure, hurt, humiliation and anxiety has stopped me from doing anything that may bring humiliation or failure. I just want to get rid of this fear of failure, disappointment, hurt, humiliation and thought of what people will think of me if I fail.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the guide should point me in direction that will end my suffering. That will get me rid of fear of failure, disappointment, humiliating and judgement so that I can live a life full of joy and do whatever I wan to do in life without fear of failure, judgement and humiliation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read lots self help books, tried self-hypnosis, NLP but all I have got is temporary results and after that suffering comes back with double force and more disappointment.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:16 am

Dear neonder,

I am Jadzia and if you want we can look at some things together.

First I want to state: What we do here doesn't necessarily help with what you would like to get rid of.
What we do here is no quick fix, is no getting rid of pain or of suffering, absolutely not. States like anxiety can in the process of dropping the illusion become much stronger.
I am looking to end suffering, fear of humiliation, fear of getting hurt, fear of judgement and live a more creative and constructive life. I fear failure and the hurt, disappointment that follows it.
This fear of failure, hurt, humiliation and anxiety has stopped me from doing anything that may bring humiliation or failure. I just want to get rid of this fear of failure, disappointment, hurt, humiliation and thought of what people will think of me if I fail.
Some things are better worked through before one appears here. Anxiety can be tricky, once you are almost done with it, Gating can help clearing up the rest. But- if you are still stuck in it, the process will highten anxiety, since you are trying to loosen the grip of something that, even if you know it or not, gives security.

Please do consider where you are with your anxiety right now. LU might not the right thing for you at the moment.
For working through issues like that a one to one meeting real life way is a much better idea.

Love,
Jadzia

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neonder
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:42 am

After posting this topic I have read the Gateless gatecrasher and while reading story of Philips I realized that beyond fear and anxiety there is nothing but thought and thought are empty. This fear just try to protect something that does not exist at all. I realized that all this anxiety and fear is centered around Me which does not exist at all. I was very much relieved for 3 to 4 days. I was not taking feelings personally and at one point i though that I have crashed the gate but on the morning of 4th day it all came back strongly. This 'me' or I felt very strong. I am trying to "Look" but not able look properly. I tried to follow 7 steps but no luck. It will be great help if you can guide me to see no self

Thanks and Regards.
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:48 pm

One can investigate no self and try to find it, but how to prove that something isn't there?
Since the self isn't what is thought it is, but an illusion, why not study what can be found called self and see what it really is?
You know illusions? There is something but sure not what it looks like.
This 'me' or I felt very strong
What did you feel?
What is there you call self?
What do you call I, me, mine?

Take your time and look and share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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neonder
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:35 pm

Hello Jadzia,

The 3 questions in your last reply has started some new realization. I will reply you day after tomorrow. i need some time to understand what's where all this is leading me.

Regards.
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:48 pm

Take your time. Tomorrow I won't be able to answer due to travelling.

Love,
Jadzia

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neonder
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:15 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Thanks a lot for taking out time for this conversation from your busy schedule. I appreciate your help. Here are answers to the quetions you asked.

What did you feel?
When I felt I strongly. There was anger and frustration. There was pressure in the jaws. Gums pressing against each other. I felt that I just can't get rid of this I even though intellectually i understand that I is an illusion.

What is there you call self?
When I call self i it means my body and everything that I accomplish with body. I feel pressure in jaws. A kind of anger and frustration.

What do you call I, me, mine

Intellectually i understand that there is no I, me, mine and I is nothing but an illusion. It's a lavle and behind this label there is nothing but thoughts, memories which is illusion. I call me to this presence which is always there in seeing, hearing, thinking, experiencing. I feel anger and frustration when I think about i. This presence that hears everything, that feels everything, that thinks, that experience everything is peace.

Today in the morning I was looking at me. There was lot of anger and frustration. Then I realised that this anger or frustration is trying to protect something that is not there at all. After that there was feeling stillness, sweetness. Seeing was happening, hearing was happening, feeling were experienced, sensetions in the body were experienced but I was not personally involved in it. I sat quietly in that peace and sweetness for around 30 minutes and then it's gone.

Love
Neo
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:59 am

When I felt I strongly. There was anger and frustration. There was pressure in the jaws. Gums pressing against each other. I felt that I just can't get rid of this I even though intellectually i understand that I is an illusion.
Lets first have a look together at what an illusion is, ok?
An illusion is nothing than a wrong perception of something.A something that is not really what it seems to be.
There is something there but it is seen as something different. Wrong interpretation.
So, if we look at the I, self there is something there, but our interpretation of what we perceive is wrong.
Are you still with me? :-)
This is why there is no need at all to get rid of ego, self, I. It can stay, appear. But it is seen the way it is.
See the difference?

So what about anger and frustration? For what, for falling for a misconception? And with the self being the wrong name for what is sensed?
Who is angry and frustrated? Where is this who who is angry found.
Stay as calm as you can and allow! Allowing is the key here, allowing whatever turns up.
Enjoy this investigation with its beautiful moments AND its pitfalls.
When I call self i it means my body and everything that I accomplish with body. I feel pressure in jaws. A kind of anger and frustration.
Yes, many would agree with you. The self is body or in the body or or.

Now it is time to start looking deeply, just by using your senses.
Looking here involves all senses: hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, feeling (physical sensation).
Something is either there, meaning sensed, or not, meaning only appearing in the content of thought.
Checking by senses is what we call looking directly at what is in the actual moment. This is the direct experience, short, DE.

If you check in your direct experience right now - where is an I in the body? Can one be found?
Intellectually i understand that there is no I, me, mine and I is nothing but an illusion.
You will get there by looking, really looking.
Patience.
I sat quietly in that peace and sweetness for around 30 minutes and then it's gone.
Don't expect a 24h experience - this might take a bit longer.
For most it is fluctuating for quite some time.

Love,
Jadzia

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neonder
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:08 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Thanks for the reply and sorry for a delayed reply on my part. From last two days I am quite busy. Need some time to read, follow and respond. Will reply it on Sunday.

Much love
Neo
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:53 am

Thanks for the note.

Love,
Jadzia

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neonder
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:55 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Just an hour back as per your suggestion I was looking. I was frustrated and angry. I looked for who is really angry. There was sensation, there was emotion, there were thought coming and going but there was no I or me. There was a sense of I but sense is not I. The moment I realized that the sense of I in not an I but an illusion of I I started out laughing loudly. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Oh my goodness there no I. There is something, there is some sense but that is not I. Its just an illusion of I. Only an illusion. And all my life up to this day was centered around this illusion of I. Some how I just wanted to feel this illusion, just wanted to believe in it. Just wanted to protect it but how can one protect and believe in an illusion.

I have realized that the word I, me, mine are just words and they don't have any inherent meaning. These words are useful in conversation and that's all. phenomenon like seeing, hearing, experiencing, smelling, breathing, thinking are just happening and this I has no role to play in it. Even now while typing this when i think of I, i laugh loudly. I just want to be in this state for some time. Cant type any more. Just want to be.... just want to relax in this peace, this stillness. just want to relax in the DE behind the words peace and stillness.

meaning only appearing in the content of thought.

For next few days every morning I will read this quote. The explanation about illusion and the quote above has hit me really hard.


Thank you very much for you help, guidance and support in looking through. I really appreciate you help.

Much love.
Neo
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:43 pm

Beautiful looking! :-D
There was a sense of I but sense is not I.
Where is this sense of I found?
And all my life up to this day was centered around this illusion of I. Some how I just wanted to feel this illusion, just wanted to believe in it. Just wanted to protect it but how can one protect and believe in an illusion.
And how we defend opinions of this I or its identifications, telling others what we think about something or work hard to be seen in a certain way.
Part of the game.....
I have realized that the word I, me, mine are just words and they don't have any inherent meaning. These words are useful in conversation and that's all.
Yes, I, me, mine actually have no more meaning than tree, you or he.
phenomenon like seeing, hearing, experiencing, smelling, breathing, thinking are just happening and this I has no role to play in it.
Lets check this carefully one by one just so that this is clear in an experimental way.
Here is a little exercise to do:
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Love
Jadzia

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neonder
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby neonder » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:21 am

HI Jadzia,

Greetings of the day.

Sorry I have not gone throught the hand exercise. That ecastic exerience I had last time has gone now. Now while looking I see that thre is no I to see, hear, feel, smell, think, speak. These phenomenon are happening on autopilot. I feel that these phenomenon are happening independently and even though they seems to be connected with each other but they are not. But when I think that the phenomenon of thinking, hearing, seeing, experiencing, breathing, heart beating happening indepedently it creats a fear. Fear that if no one is controlling this then how come they seems to be so synchronous and why they are not falling apart. with this thought my eyelids started fluttering and I was not able to conrol it for some time and then the thought that what if no one is controling the heart beats. It may stop beating any time and I am dead. I was terrified and I cound not dared to look through it. Need some to see through it.

Much Love
Neo
Love
Neo

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:17 pm

I will write an answer tomorrow, I had a very long and wonderful day in the mountains. But don't worry, fear is to be expected at this stage of investigation, we will look at it together tomorrow - I will have time for an answer in the morning.

Right now breathe, take fear as part of what is and don't even think of fighting it - it has it's use.

Love,
Jadzia

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Jadzia
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Re: why I suffer?

Postby Jadzia » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:41 am

That ecastic exerience I had last time has gone now.
They come and go these wonderful feelings and one can get quite attached to them.
Open hands, beautiful experiences come and go, painful experiences come and go....
To whom do they happen? And what if an experience just happens? Who labels, who decides if something is beautiful or not? What if all that is, is of the same value, richness?
Now while looking I see that thre is no I to see, hear, feel, smell, think, speak. These phenomenon are happening on autopilot. I feel that these phenomenon are happening independently and even though they seems to be connected with each other but they are not.
Yes. All the "I did", "I will, have to do..!" are add ons which aren't needed.
Fear that if no one is controlling this then how come they seems to be so synchronous and why they are not falling apart. with this thought my eyelids started fluttering and I was not able to conrol it for some time and then the thought that what if no one is controling the heart beats. It may stop beating any time and I am dead. I was terrified and I cound not dared to look through it. Need some to see through it.
Take your time, this is quite something. Mind and thoughts would like to grasp this, understand this and they can't.
The beautiful thing is, self being a misnomer, an illusion, even with the new knowledge everything is exactly as it has been. This is what we mean when we say Nothing changes.
Life was thought to be under control....it never has been.

So relax, breathe in and out and just feel into the sensations, the flutter of the eyes or whatever may appear, with loving curiosity into how life unfolds at the present moment.

What is fear?
Lets check it out carefully.
There is a physical sensation, like fluttering eyelids or a feeling in the stomach. Do the sensations know that they are fear?
Does a sensation know anything or is it just what it is in the moment?
There is a thought with the content "Fear" or "Blimey I am afraid" - does a thought know what fear is? Does this four lettered word know it is called fear? Can a word be fear?
Does the body know what fear is?

Answer these questions for yourself and then allow all fear to be there. Be curious about it, about sensation and thought. Watch it like a loving mother or father, no pushing away, no sorting it out - just stay with the sensation and look. If the sensation takes a new location follow with the same love and curiosity.
This is what is, and it is fine. This is part of what is the same way as all the other feelings are, the joy, the tears... everything.

Share how this goes and the hand exercise can be done later.

Love,
Jadzia


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