surrender

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charlie
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surrender

Postby charlie » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:43 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
If there is no inherent self, Im curious what you mean by "you". I believe that I have experienced life from this perspective.. many times... moments of clarity or unity consciousness I call them... how ever Im also very aware how tricky the ego mind is... and Im here to find out where I am at. A friend said LU was a turning point for him.

What are you looking for at LU?
to confidently and consistently know / see the difference between the thought that I am in unity consciousness vs the actual experience. To truly be and have let go of the the belief of inherent self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
to have someone who has been there help me see where I am in error and help get back on track and then be able to get myself back on track when I realize Im off.... and stuck in inherent self mental masturbation ( I call it)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Ive been a Vipassana meditator for 30 years, studied and practiced other techniques and I am an avid and advanced muscle testor... meaning Im pretty confident Ive got most of this figured out. However my friend has doubts and catches me reacting... so I am humble enough to know... there are layers and layers of beliefs... and the inherent self is slippery.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:57 am

You still in need of a guide?

Let me know in the next day or two and we can get started. Let me know by Monday

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charlie
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Re: surrender

Postby charlie » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:45 pm

Thank you Abraxaz
Yes I grately appreciate your guidance.

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:07 am

Great. Let’s get started.

When I ask ‘who are you?’ What comes to mind? Start by writing as complete an answer as you can. Let this answer be a bit ‘stream of consciousness’. Don’t edit it for clarity. If it starts getting hard (and there is a good chance it might) then move into why it’s hard and write about that.

In your intro you mentioned that you have experienced not self. I totally believe you. When you said you felt you have most of it figured out, what do you feel is left, what is missing?

Lastly, what do you think will change if that which is ‘ not self’ is seen clearly?

If you don’t mind - I’ll refer to it as ‘ not self’ not ‘no self’ I hope that difference will become clear as things move along.

Good to hear from you

One more thing. Do you still meditate? If so, describe your practice. Tell me why you do it. If you don’t, let me know why you stopped.

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charlie
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Re: surrender

Postby charlie » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:14 am

Thank you Abraxaz.

I am an aspect of Source of all that is infinite intelligence.... having a human experience... at least one of them that Im aware of. Ive been ratelling this off for years... yet Im still manifesting pain in this body... so I know that somewhere I believe this is real.

That would be the part thats missing... the part that still believes in separation from Source... and becomes a victim.

If that which is "not self" is seen clearly ... I imagine I would no longer eat food or drink water... feeling connected to Source always and be present with all that is ... without judging and reacting.

My meditation practice has become more of a presence practice. Once in awhile I use a mantra to help quiet the mind and get focused again on the moment. So the actual formal sitting is usually only for a short while when I first arise... or with an arranged event or friends... to help set the tone for the day... and remind myself why I am.

I can see the day that the need for formal sittings will eventually disappear. Being more than doing.
cheers
Charles

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:09 am

Thanks Charles, that was a great start

Let’s get even more simple. Strip it down a bit

I know a guy named Charles. Are you that guy? (Hint, probably not). So Charles is just a name. A way to call yourself. So when I say ‘who is Charles’ how would you answer that? Get more granular. How would I be able to know that you are not my friend ‘Charles’ - might be another way to put it.

You said you were an ‘aspect of the source’. Can you see how that creates a source and a separate ‘self’?

Where was that aspect of the self before you were born? What happens after you die? Does that aspect of the source die? Did it not exist prior to your birth? How can this source have any type of ending or beginning? No need to give an answer to those. Just mull it over.

The part about not eating and drinking points to annihilation. That’s no self. That’s not what I’m pointing to. Let’s put that aside. I won’t be pointing to that.

I’ll give you a little nudge. When I was first asked this question ‘who are you’ it seemed like I was my body. Do you feel like you live in your body? If so, point to the place that you live in your body and let me know where your finger pointed.

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:10 am

Thanks Charles, that was a great start

Let’s get even more simple. Strip it down a bit

I know a guy named Charles. Are you that guy? (Hint, probably not). So Charles is just a name. A way to call yourself. So when I say ‘who is Charles’ how would you answer that? Get more granular. How would I be able to know that you are not my friend ‘Charles’ - might be another way to put it.

You said you were an ‘aspect of the source’. Can you see how that creates a source and a separate ‘self’?

Where was that aspect of the self before you were born? What happens after you die? Does that aspect of the source die? Did it not exist prior to your birth? How can this source have any type of ending or beginning? No need to give an answer to those. Just mull it over.

The part about not eating and drinking points to annihilation. That’s no self. That’s not what I’m pointing to. Let’s put that aside. I won’t be pointing to that.

I’ll give you a little nudge. When I was first asked this question ‘who are you’ it seemed like I was my body. Do you feel like you live in your body? If so, point to the place that you live in your body and let me know where your finger pointed.

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charlie
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Re: surrender

Postby charlie » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:03 am

Hello Abraxaz,
Charles is a name given to a set of beliefs... instead of a friend it would be a mirror of the question who is Charles. If I am an aspect of Source...like rain to an ocean... why is it separate? I dont see that.

Before the birth event there was a change of venue of experience... just as when one leaves this plain to go to another at death... no the aspect cannot die... as all there is is Source. It exists... no start and no end.

I have met people that are called breatharians.. they dont eat or drink and are perfectly healthy... or seem to be... I didnt do any testing... to me... it makes perfect sense... the fewer beliefs I have ... the less dependent and outside or seemingly separate aspects of Source to acquire to stay healthy and experence life in a body.

Im definately not my body... but it is a vehicle... like driving my car... Im not a Nissan pickup truck... but I certainly use it to get from one place to another.

If I point to a place where I live in the body... I dont get a specific point, in fact I get an awareness of an entire field much bigger than my body.
cheers
c

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:50 pm

If I am an aspect of Source...like rain to an ocean... why is it separate?
because the rain isn't the ocean and the ocean isn't rain - that's why they have different words for these things. I can keep dry from rain with an umbrella but that wont help in the ocean.
I have met people that are called breatharians.. they dont eat or drink and are perfectly healthy.
This is false. Lock one in a room for 4 days and you will see the truth of this. there is no reason to believe such a claim. The body is the body - it ages, it dies. There is no escape. But you are not your body
but it is a vehicle... like driving my car... Im not a Nissan pickup truck... but I certainly use it to get from one place to another
This is the most useful thing you've given me so far. Lets focus here for second. Who is driving the car? Look very hard and long here - this is one of the first and strongest way 'the self' is felt and its worth exploring. When you eat, who tastes the food? this is what I want you to focus on. What IS the SELF?
If I point to a place where I live in the body... I dont get a specific point, in fact I get an awareness of an entire field much bigger than my body
yes this is the feeling of not self.

There is no place in the body where the self lives - not in the head - not in the heart - not in the toe.

I would like to start a set of exercises with you next if you feel ok with that

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charlie
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Re: surrender

Postby charlie » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:06 pm

Hi Abraxaz
yes I look forward to the exercises.

I see where you are coming from... ultimately its consciousness experiencing itself driving the car and living in this body.... and that is pretty much a conversation killer. If you see that the ocean is not the Source of the rain.... then one isnt experiencing the Ascendant or consciousness in the moment... its thinking and judging things as seperate. However if one is experiencing perpetual Ascendant consciousness... there is not much to talk about. Everything takes care of itself... and is connected.

cheers
c

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:32 pm

Ok. We can start the exercise is short order

But first list out the qualities of ‘ self’
The Who, what, where, when , and how. Wrist fiez the self ‘do’ what is it’s function? How do you know about it at all?

I keep stressing this because it may not be possible to know what a thing is not until you can say clearly what it is. What I point to is the idea that everything is ‘not self’. So I have to know where you are funding the self to help point to how it’s not there.

So let’s try once again to answer that first part clearly. Without metaphors or metaphysics.

Like I’d i asked you what a cup is you could probably give me a very clear answer. Maybe even send me a photo of your favorite cup. This is what I’m after here. That level of concrete granular response. Work had here. It will make it easier latar

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charlie
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Re: surrender

Postby charlie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:28 pm

the qualities of self:

who is self? self is a personality created from beliefs and programs

what is self? self is a product of sense experiences and memories from ones environment

where is self? self is wherever focus is placed

when is self? self is in the past

how is self? self is a function of survival and belief in separation

I know about it as its the vehicle for experience... and I sense its reality. hmmm... Im floundering a bit.
chjeers
c

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:10 pm

We are going to need to work a bit harder here. you are not floundering. But you may have to put in a bit more effort
self is a personality created from beliefs and programs
Who's has these beliefs? What is programed?
self is a product of sense experiences and memories from ones environment
Where are these memories? Who is living "in the environment"
self is in the past
Do you really believe this? How can anything only exist in the past? It must be present now to then become past, right?
self is a function of survival and belief in separation
this is great - we can use this later . Its totaly worth looking at the question of 'do i need a self to survive in the word?'
I sense its reality
Have you ever had the feeling that you forgot your keys in your jacket or your pocket? When you went to look for them and they were not there, you may have even checked again - just to make sure. what does this tell you about the validity of 'sensing what is real' Can you trust that - is intuition a way to base this life ?

This is in kindness - dont take it too hard. Let me know if you feel bad about how im guiding you - im here to help after all.

in kindness,
Abraxas

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charlie
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Re: surrender

Postby charlie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:00 pm

hello Abraxaz
Charles Holmes - self/ego has these beliefs. The body is created from the mind. Wherever the mind is focused... that is reality. If ones perception is tainted by lenses of ego beliefs... then that is ones reality... in this case... my reality.

memories are in the nervous system of the body and in the field. The self / ego live in this environment of beliefs... past memories.

yes... self is a bunch of memories... without them... one would experience the eternal now... and not need a body.

yes... one needs a self to live in the 3D reality.

Intuition and our interpretation of Source info is what guides us thru life... its all we have. The less beliefs... the more clearer our interpretation of guidance. Trust is necessary to integrate consciousness so one experiences less ego/self and more direct Source experience... consciousness. The body cannot lie... its reacting to its environment... yes and no all the time... hence muscle testing as a tool to determine guidance. To get past the mind and beliefs and access direct truth.

I dont feel bad at all. Just trying tp find the words to express what I know.
c

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Abraxaz
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Re: surrender

Postby Abraxaz » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:35 pm

This is better - we can work with this. I would like to maybe simply the things you are saying - feel free to correct me if you feel I've misrepresented what you are saying.

(also - do you know how to use the quote function as I have been doing for you?)


This is what you seem to be saying the self is:
elf/ego has these beliefs
This points at "the self is my beliefs"
The body is created from the mind
The self is this mind (whatever that means to you - and it can have a ton of different meaning
memories are in the nervous system of the body
This kind of says that the self is the body - your brain, maybe
Intuition and our interpretation of Source info is what guides us thru life... its all we have. The less beliefs... the more clearer our interpretation of guidance. Trust is necessary to integrate consciousness so one experiences less ego/self and more direct Source experience
All of this is conjection - lets set it aside. Im going to get very specific and detailed with you from here on out. NO MORE PHILOSOPHY.
To get past the mind and beliefs and access direct truth.
Yes - lets start down this path .....and this is how....

First let start by agreeing to talk about one thing only from here on out as much as possible . Actual experience (AE)


ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (AE - as abbreviated from here out) )(smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. The goal is not improvement.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that. In fact, if you do have a practice, this is a great place to start looking at AE as it is discussed here. Of course, you will find, the trick is, that it can be seen anywhere - and this is the point.

The rest of the exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. What is LOOKING?

‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

Does this make sense? Do you have any questions about this?


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