saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

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gondwana
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Re: saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby gondwana » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:15 am

No, other than the idea of an "I", which is a thought akin to the thought that there is a thinker, there is no "I".
Reflecting back a message from the start of the conversation:
So I am a thought process of labeling what is or is not associated with the sense of being.

The question, then, is is there any entity managing this thought process of labeling me and not me, or is this thought process just going along by itself, one thought after another with no one or nothing controlling it?
So as was just seen, the idea of an “I” is just a thought. The idea of a thinker is just a thought.

Couldn’t the “I” also be described as just a thought process, concentrating sense inputs and projecting an imaginary “I” to be the perceiver of it all? When in fact, there is no “perceiver” needed, there is only the experience of the perceived?

This “I” thought process is impersonal and automated, is it not? No “entity” required at all. It functions all by itself.

Don’t accept this as belief, check it!
Look now and check, be sure :)


—-

Another place to look:

Call up the thought “I” again.
Does the thought "I" react?
Does "I" do anything? Can "I" do anything else than to appear as "I"?
Does "I" think?
Or is it just an impersonal, automatic thought/process?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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aroseof
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Re: saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby aroseof » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:17 pm

Couldn’t the “I” also be described as just a thought process, concentrating sense inputs and projecting an imaginary “I” to be the perceiver of it all? When in fact, there is no “perceiver” needed, there is only the experience of the perceived?
By "concentrating sense inputs" do you mean concentrating certain sense inputs and not others? Like concentrating bodily sensations and the visual perception of this body (as opposed to other bodies and other visual and tactile perceptions), along with certain memories and thoughts and images and not others? And then there is some sort of assumption or belief that this concentration is somehow intimately connected with the perceiver of all senses. But in fact, I can't see how perception is any more or less intimate with the concentrated sense inputs than with the non-concentrated sense inputs.

So if that's what you mean, then no, there is no perceiver required; just perception.
This “I” thought process is impersonal and automated, is it not? No “entity” required at all. It functions all by itself.
No, there is no entity required or possible, at least in the way that I normally conceive of it, because any entity is perceived as part of the process of thought concentrating sense inputs, rather than a manager of it, even if it's thought to be a manager.

So that means that the "I" process is impersonal in that the personal is part of the process itself, rather than a manger of it. I don't know if I can say if it's automated or not. It's certainly spontaneous, in that the idea of a controller is just part of the process rather than a real controller. Automated implies pre-ordained or dead or mechanical to me, and I'm not sure if that's the case or not.

—-
Another place to look:
Call up the thought “I” again.
Does the thought "I" react?
No, some other thoughts react in defense of the "I" thought.
Does "I" do anything? Can "I" do anything else than to appear as "I"?
No. Other thoughts make suggestions/commands in reference to the "I" thought. But the "I" thought is just there. It doesn't appear to do anything else other than appear as "I."
Does "I" think?
No. "I" itself is a thought. Nothing thinks. Thinking just happens.
Or is it just an impersonal, automatic thought/process?
Yes, it is an impersonal thought/process. And I suppose it's automatic in that it just appears without any effort or planning required.

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gondwana
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Re: saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby gondwana » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:51 am

No, some other thoughts react in defense of the "I" thought.
No. Other thoughts make suggestions/commands in reference to the "I" thought. But the "I" thought is just there. It doesn't appear to do anything else other than appear as "I."
No. "I" itself is a thought. Nothing thinks. Thinking just happens.
So if that's what you mean, then no, there is no perceiver required; just perception.
Very good!
I don't know if I can say if it's automated or not. It's certainly spontaneous, in that the idea of a controller is just part of the process rather than a real controller. Automated implies pre-ordained or dead or mechanical to me, and I'm not sure if that's the case or not.
So the issue here is a continuing belief in control. There is still a belief that there is a one to be in control of everything. A dislike of ideas like “pre-ordained” or “dead” or “mechanical”.

Can it be seen how these are all thoughts?
Belief = thought
Dislike = thought

We already learned not to believe the content of thought...

Does an expectation still remain that after this process is complete, some level of “being in control” will still remain? Please examine carefully and first state the expectations remaining, even the subtle hidden ones. Look at them carefully. Can they be let go of? This process requires complete and utter surrender of ALL expectations/beliefs/holdings-on-to.

After doing that, here is another set of experiments to try:

If it is really true that “you” are in control, then it must be known exactly how things are done — right?

As you talk out loud, observe the process from the background.
How EXACTLY do ‘you’ talk?
How do ‘you’ form the mouth shapes, control breath, and pitch to form words?
How do ‘you’ do ALL those complex things right before the sounds come out?
And while deciding WHAT to say next?
Describe the process used!

Next, go take a walk. Observe the walking.
How do ‘you’ control all the micro-muscle movements and retain perfect balance and stability?
Can walking still happen while thinking about other things?
Does walking stop when lost in thought?
Does walking sometimes happen followed by suddenly ‘waking up’ at some destination and not remembering the journey or how one navigated there?

Next. Observe breathing.
How do ‘you’ control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath?
How DO ‘you’ know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the task at the current moment, and when to speed up or slow down?
Describe the process.

Observe thought again.
How do ‘you’ decide the next thought which comes up?
Do ‘you’ decide the next thought with another thought?
Then who decides the thought before, and the one before that, and...?
At which point exactly do ‘you’ make the decision what to think next?
Can ‘you’ observe it happening in reality, or is this simply an untested assumption?
Describe the process.

Now answer the following questions:

Is there really a ‘you’ inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
Is there a talker, or is there just talking happening?
Is there a walker; or is there just walking happening?
Is there a breather; or is there just breathing happening?
Is there a thinker; or is there just thinking happening?

Or is it, in fact, only thought which SAYS that you control all these things?
Are they simply unchecked assumptions?
LOOK very hard at this!
Be sure!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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aroseof
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Re: saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby aroseof » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:25 am

So the issue here is a continuing belief in control. There is still a belief that there is a one to be in control of everything. A dislike of ideas like “pre-ordained” or “dead” or “mechanical”.

Can it be seen how these are all thoughts?
Belief = thought
Dislike = thought
Yes
We already learned not to believe the content of thought...

Does an expectation still remain that after this process is complete, some level of “being in control” will still remain? Please examine carefully and first state the expectations remaining, even the subtle hidden ones. Look at them carefully. Can they be let go of? This process requires complete and utter surrender of ALL expectations/beliefs/holdings-on-to.
Yes, there is some expectation that some level of being in control will still remain after this process is complete.

There is the belief that it would be very irresponsible for me not to be in control.

There is the corresponding belief that I need to be in control in order to do what needs to be done.

There is an expectation that there will be an "I" who will be free.

There is the belief that fully surrendering to the end of this process would be to abandon my core self that has been with me since I was a small child.

How can these beliefs be let go of?

Next I will do the other exercises that you suggest.

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gondwana
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saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby gondwana » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:32 am

Beautiful honesty there!
There is the belief that fully surrendering to the end of this process would be to abandon my core self that has been with me since I was a small child.
There is nothing to fear.

The personality will remain, just as it is now. To others, in fact, the personality will appear pretty much the same. In that sense, it will be a non-event.

What changes is the internal relationship to it.
There is the belief that it would be very irresponsible for me not to be in control.
What if “you” never were in the first place?
What if it were only ever the ILLUSION of control?
There is the corresponding belief that I need to be in control in order to do what needs to be done.
What if things have ALWAYS gotten done by themselves just fine, even though there was never anyone in control all along?
There is an expectation that there will be an "I" who will be free.
What if “you”/the “I” never existed in the first place?
Yes, there is some expectation that some level of being in control will still remain after this process is complete.
ALL expectations must be dropped. Inquiry cannot make any progress until that occurs.

When has ANY regular experience in life ever turned out to be exactly as expected? Did we ever have control over that at all?

What says that these expectations cannot be dropped? Is it a thought, perhaps? ;) Can a thought DO anything?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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gondwana
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Re: saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby gondwana » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:58 am

How did you get on with this?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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gondwana
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saw you on Buddha at the Gas Pump

Postby gondwana » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:00 am

Guess the urgency evaporated, once we got to the hard questions, eh!

I’m sure there may be some fear or something... but if there is no sharing, I cannot help.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.


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