Peering through the gate

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:30 pm

Bring up the thought "I" and look at it.
Say it many times until it is right there.
After which, bring up another thought. "Icecream" for example.
Compare the two while looking directly at them.
Is the thought "I" more special than the thought "Icecream"?
I have just done It. Repeated many times (both words/conceps) until I was "full" of one, the I tought and, after that, being (that's how I felt) the icecream. It didn't took long, but, as I was full of the objects, some sense of perception was engaged and I felt an impulse to laugh, maybe because I saw the absurdity and the possibility of being both.. Feelings were involved because I repeated many times. This was something new. The feelings! The impulse to laugh, seeing the absurdity of the fact. A trace of happines remained for a few seconds. This was something New.
While looking directly at the thought "I":
Can "I" think other thoughts?
No!

Thank you!

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:36 pm

but, as I was full of the objects, some sense of perception was engaged and I felt an impulse to laugh,
I was not full of the objects, I was the objects :-)

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:18 am

Very good! Wow!-signal recieved.


Indeed it is absurd and laughable. Once you see it for what it is.
What if ALL thought stories were just that. Fantasy!
Everything you thought was important and true so far. Fantasy!
Hopes, fears, memories... And in the apparent center: The person. The personaliy. [insert "your name" here].
This dream character with [insert name], which thought is telling a giant story about.
Could it be all just fantasy?

I was the objects :-)
Is it truly any different right now?
Was it every truly any different?

Have a look right now!
Do you SEE a separation?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:39 pm

Is it truly any different right now?
Was it every truly any different?

Have a look right now!
Do you SEE a separation?
I had just write a lot when the Chromebrowser closed...
Yes I will make a copy every minute...

What you are proposing is a "giant step for the humanity", while I have done just a little step. I know you are perfectly logical. But we are stuck here. I cannot force myself to look at everything "as a baby" - it would be impossible. I would have done years ago. Yes I understand the logic. What happened yesterday was product of circunstances. It was funny, just that.
I understand the logic, but I can't transpose it to the world at large.
I am sorry, my english skills are not deep enough to say things that I think could carry us on.
But the fact is: the thing is very, very simple (it is more than simple, it is nothing) - a baby is capable of seeing this - so I can understand it too, as I am (the "thing", this way of seeing things) already there, so I have just to open the curtains - but not only via logical analysis. See, I have seen this. I told you my experience. It is nothing. It is simpler than simple. So dismissing what I said earlier, we don't need to many and difficult words to reach it. We don't need any word in fact. Well, we both know that. Words are the instruments we have at hand to try to reach it.

YES, I agree with all what you said - but what?
All the babies in the world are having a goog laugh now, listening to this conversation...

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:23 am

Let us call it "It". For the moment! The realisation we're after here.
I understand the logic, but I can't transpose it to the world at large.
It's not that you are truly doing anything for it to happen. How so?
What happened yesterday was product of circumstances.
So to speak!
Or more accurately:
"It" will arrive in its time. Without being expected, without being truly worked for.

How so:
Have a look right now.
There is a scene.
The me-character sitting in front of a computer.
There is an impression of being stuck.
Maybe confusion.
Maybe frustration.
BUT! And that's the thing:
You are clearly aware of all this, aren't you?
You are right now most clearly aware of the seeking, the stuckness, the confusion, the frustration. Aren't you??

Have a LOOK at these kinds of appearances once they emerge. No logic needed here. Just plain naive looking at things:
"Stuckness"
Aren't you clearly aware of this appearance?
"Confusion"
Aren't you clearly aware of this appearance?
"Frustration"
Aren't you clearly aware of this appearance?

If so, could you ever truly be unclear about anything?


What happened yesterday was product of circumstances.
The coin will drop in its time.
It won't drop when you want it to or when I want it to.
It will drop in its time.
Since this is true, you can also just relax and wait for it, right?


All the babies in the world are having a goog laugh now, listening to this conversation...
You are also having a good laugh over this conversation right now!
At least the baby inside you is.
Have a look, it's right behind you!
"The baby inside you", pristine awareness, is closer than you are to yourself.
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:18 pm

Hi Matthew,

Sorry if I was a little bit "too much" yesterday.

"It" will arrive in its time. Without being expected, without being truly worked for.

Yes, unfortunately I believe in this sentence.
How so:
Have a look right now.
There is a scene.
The me-character sitting in front of a computer.
There is an impression of being stuck.
Maybe confusion.
Maybe frustration.
BUT! And that's the thing:
You are clearly aware of all this, aren't you?
You are right now most clearly aware of the seeking, the stuckness, the confusion, the frustration. Aren't you?
Yes. And also the disappointment with myself.
The process inside me goes this way: I know that some kind of work shall be done.
And also, together with, the thing (it) will happen in it's time, by itself.

It is a question of understanding. Wich kind of work shall be done? The work is understanding. OK let's understand what I am understanding now.
Few things happened since I started this process with you. I am aware of them, as you say:
I am now more clearly aware of the seeking, the stuckness, the confusion, the frustration.
So I cannot be unclear about what is happening. We are in the same page, so to speak.

Then you say:
The coin will drop in its time.
It won't drop when you want it to or when I want it to.
It will drop in its time.
Since this is true, you can also just relax and wait for it, right?
I don't know if you are joking with my "lack" of effort, or being truthful.
Because I agree completely with your phrase.

If I make effort to understand or try to understand the "IT", with effort, some part of me says, "this is wrong, no effort is needed". And I believe in it.
It is clear for me that I believe in it because the first glimpse I had was with no effort.

So, I am in a "cul de sac" like the french says.

I don't know how and in wich direction should I put more effort. I want to understand why did I lost it, in the first place.
Then you will say: "You really lost it?" Now, I doubt ( a little doubt) that I lost it. But... Let's continue, let's do it. I want to understand it. Mainly I wan't to understand the "mechanics" that made me feel that I lost it. Because for years I believed that IT would come back by ITself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you Michael for your help. I appreciate very much what you are doing. Let's do it!

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:55 pm

The work is understanding.
WELL! Yes and no. Having a sound understanding beforehand can in fact help in the process.
But! The real work is looking.
Looking, looking, looking.
Looking at things as they are.


I can help your desire to understand through elaboration on a few things.
It isn't likely to change anything.
But it cannot hurt either.
However! They real work, the looking, you will have to do yourself afterwards.
So be prepared and ready.

What we are looking for is the truth. (Or at least a fraction of it.)
The truth is always true. Otherwise it wouldn't be the truth.
Agree?
So when looking at things as they are, we are already looking at the truth.
The fact whether you can recognise the truth already as such or not does not change anything.
Since the truth is always true.

I want to understand why did I lost it
What happened during your episodes was that personhood-inducing thought went dormant for a few moments.
The kind of thought content that keeps you in an apparent illusion disappeared and you saw things as they are clearly.
You "lost it" because this kind of thought reappeared and -despite having seen how things truly are- you happened to believe it again.

Personhood-inducing thought is for instance, from coarse to subtle:
-Thought about a "me"
-Thought about a "me" that has feelings
-Thought about a "me" that has a name and a history
-Thought giving rise to a sense of agency
-Thought giving rise to a sense of separation
-Thought giving rise to a sense of being a perceiver of a preexisting outside world
-Thought labelling raw awareness with terms like "room" and "other people"
And so on!

What we are doing here, and listen carefully:
We are not trying to reach that exact same state again. We are not trying to make this kind of thought go away.
What we are trying to achieve is for you to see, that this kind of thought content is not true.
You won't exterminate thought through this inquiry, but you will see through it.
You won't overpower it, but you will overcome it.

You will see that pristine awareness is present all the time.
And within this pristine awareness, there happen to appear all kinds of things and also a thought story about a person called "me". That's all!
And it's nothing bad, really! It's just an empty appearance that comes up every now and then.
Like thought about Santa Claus.
Like a tree.
Like the sound of a bird.

Do you understand?

If so, please proceed:

And also the disappointment with myself.
Wait a second.
"I am disappointed with myself"
Have a look at this sentence. Something cannot be right here, or can it?
Are there two entities in here? One that is disappointed with the other one?

Now the LOOKING starts.
Look at thought like you would look at a computer screen.
With interest and amusement.

Bring up the thought "I am disappointed with myself", then look at the "I" in the sentence.
If necessary, close your eyes and say "I" until it is right there.
Then look at the "myself".
Which one are you?
The "I" that is disappointed, or the "myself" which did the disappointing?
Or are you both of which? Or none of which?

Now expand your view:
Does this "I" or this "myself" even exist outside of this thought?
Right here and right now?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:18 pm

Hi Matthew,

WELL! Yes and no. Having a sound understanding beforehand can in fact help in the process.
But! The real work is looking.
Looking, looking, looking.
Looking at things as they are.
I agree. And I see it is true. Looking at things as they are is more accurate than "effort is understanding". Yesterday I even wanted to write (to myself):

"Keep the focus on the obvious. You can never find an entity behind the word 'I' because
such an entity does not exist. All there is, is life happening by itself..." (Enlightening quotes applet).

Yes, it is not needed explanations about how I came back. About the "mechanics" of things, I can see that it wouldn't help so much,
What we are doing here, and listen carefully:
We are not trying to reach that exact same state again. We are not trying to make this kind of thought go away.
What we are trying to achieve is for you to see, that this kind of thought content is not true.
You won't exterminate thought through this inquiry, but you will see through it.
You won't overpower it, but you will overcome it.
OK. For some time I just wanted the same State again. Now I see differently. And the way is to keep looking. In a calm and relaxed way, do you agree? Despair can give some fuel, but is not your best friend when you are just looking.

You will see that pristine awareness is present all the time.
And within this pristine awareness, there happen to appear all kinds of things and also a thought story about a person called "me". That's all!
And it's nothing bad, really! It's just an empty appearance that comes up every now and then.
Like thought about Santa Claus.
Like a tree.
Like the sound of a bird.

Do you understand?
"Pristine awareness is present all the time". Yes.
Wait a second.
"I am disappointed with myself"
Have a look at this sentence. Something cannot be right here, or can it?
Are there two entities in here? One that is disappointed with the other one?
Yes. I remember even a famous story wich happened with a famous person.
Bring up the thought "I am disappointed with myself", then look at the "I" in the sentence.
If necessary, close your eyes and say "I" until it is right there.
Then look at the "myself".
Which one are you?
The "I" that is disappointed, or the "myself" which did the disappointing?
Or are you both of which? Or none of which?
Yes I did it. I see I'm not yet disentangled from the false I, the ego. But I did no expect to be in just few days...
But I see the main point here (just read the words of the " Enlightening quotes" app). Yes. it is clearer more now.
Now expand your view:
Does this "I" or this "myself" even exist outside of this thought?
Right here and right now?
No. It comes with thre thought, it is created together with the thought.
The real work is looking.
Looking, looking, looking.
Looking at things as they are.

Yes and this is the exercise,


(Last night I did not have a good night sleep, so I feel I am at 70% of my capacity: OK, I am focusing at all the things and at the 70% energy also...)


Thank you, Matthew, for your patience and good will!

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:58 pm

And the way is to keep looking. In a calm and relaxed way, do you agree?
Absolutely agree!

I am at 70% of my capacity
In compensation, you will have at least 130% capacity afterwards.

Does this "I" or this "myself" even exist outside of this thought?
Right here and right now?
No. It comes with thre thought, it is created together with the thought.
So when it comes with the thought, when it is created together with the thought, it is something else than a thought?
What exactly would that be?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:55 pm

Hi Matthew,

I am sorry, but I felt that this is not the path for me. At least for now.
I think this is my last post for a while.

Anyway, I wrote this on the 27th:

This morning I felt a bit more aware (it faded away later by the lunch time) but just after responding to your mail, I had to do something downtown and went there by subway. Surrounded by other people, I felt I was more aware of their movements and of my thoughts.
My body was more relaxed than usual and things would not stay for too long in my mind. They would just skip away more quickly than the usual. I felt that my body was also responding more acurately to the movements of the other bodies (you know that the bodies converse with each other, yes?). I sensed that my movements were in tune with people around me, "negatively" or "positively" (all this in the subway): a little scratch in the arm here, a look to the other side (avoiding the look/judgment of someone) etc. Every thing happening by its own. I felt that all this I was aware, but I was not giving too much attention to each and separate thing. I felt I was more on the flow of things. Inside I was more lighter and even happyer. This type of awareness fluctuates (the sharpness) through the day. You can say to yourself in the afternoon: "Pay attention now", but sometimes the attention is better at different times during the day. Also it looks as if we have a certain ammount of energy for being aware. Sometimes the fuel that moves this (the capacity of being in the flow of things) is below in some moments than at other moments. I was, most of the time, this morning, In the flow of things and happier.
It seems that I am congratulating myself... yes, I am.


Thank for your kindness, thank you for all.

Best wishes,
Thomaz

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:34 pm

I felt that this is not the path for me.
You can simply post a reply in here if you want to continue some day.
I will keep this topic subscribed.

In addition, I will send you a PM in a moment with some good addresses.
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:00 pm

Hi Matthew,

I don't know what is happening, but yesterday I felt sure I wanted to stop. Today I am not anymore.
I think I want to continue.
As I said before, in a calm and a relaxed way.

Thank you.

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:09 pm

Alright!

How is it experienced right now?
XY = "Your name"

Does the character XY exist outside of a little thought fantasy?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.


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