Peering through the gate

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Tomcat
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Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:23 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there os no I as a personal me.
There os not an entity inside this body separated from the world. I had a glimpse of this already.

What are you looking for at LU?
Just to see the truth. O had already a glimpse of this state, few years ago unexpectedly. It happened during the time I was reading books from Rpert Spira, Francis Lucille, Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta.
When It happened I was lunching. And the main thread was that I kndw that already, a tremendous happines - was almost LOL in the middle of the restaurant - and the pure realization that it was NOTHING! NOTHING. Then I had the thougth: I got it! Next, I lost it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointings and directions in a simple way. English os not my native language, so the simpler the better.
O hope that this could be my last station. What more can I expect?
Patience and the knowledge that you, the guide, is talking with a 65 years old guy.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Forty years of seeking. Phew! (Two years with a sect from Amazonas - ayuashca; ten years wilth Rajneesh in the eighties - India and Oregon included; after his death went to Tiruvannamalai; then Lucknow and Poonjaji, then back to Brazil. Twelve years with Siddha Yoga, Gurumayi Chidvilasananda. Then four years of zen buddhism. Then Advaita.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Anastacia42
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:28 pm

Hi Tomcat,

I am just asking in general so that everybody knows… what is your native language? We might have a guide who speaks it.

Thank you!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:29 pm

My native language is Portuguese. I did not choose it because I realized that were few guides for this language. And my portuguese is from Brazil, a little bit different from Portugal's portuguese.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:11 am

I think I need to explain the word NOTHING I mentioned above. It was a NOTHING wich contained everything. But everything meant NOTHING. It was so pure, without meanings and concepts. Pure experiencing. Another thing worth mentioning was that this was the first time I experienced something of this sort without external help. By external help I mean meditation, zazen, the proximity of a guru, a master, etc. It happened by itself as if by miracle. I was doing nothing. I know that this happens with many people. Since then I wait for this to happen again...

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:49 pm

Good day to you, Sir!
First of all, I want to express LU's apologies for letting you wait for so long.
It was in fact a technical issue, that caused the overlooking of your thread.
But anyway. Let us now go right in there, shall we!


The account of your glimpse sounds very good.
But what happened then?
Next, I lost it.
No, I really don't think so!

What exactly happened at that point, when you apparently "lost it"?
What is the difference right now. When you compare that moment of clear seeing with the experience right now.
Did something go away?
Or did something come back?

If so, what exactly went away?
Or what exactly came back?


Looking forward to your reply!
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:18 pm

Thank you Matthew, very much, for accepting being my guide. I think you know that English is not my first language, so please excuse my errors. And please don't call me Sir ;)
What exactly happened at that point, when you apparently "lost it"?
What is the difference right now. When you compare that moment of clear seeing with the experience right now.
Did something go away?
Or did something come back?

If so, what exactly went away?
Or what exactly came back?
I had an experience. What happened when I say "I lost it", I mean I lost the experience, that was very powerful and joyful.
I was in the middle of my lunch when I started to realize that the people around me were not what they think they were. All people were part of the same "substance". In fact everything was part of the same "substance". Made of the same material. And there were no individuals around me, they were doing all they were doing, but there was no separate individual in each one, altough they thought they were. It was laughable, if I had the time to laugh. Next, came the thought, "If they are not what they think they are, I am not what I think I am" and then I started to feel an enormous wave of joy, that would engulfed me if I didn't have the thought "I did it", when it stop.
All of it was as if I, for few seconds, were transported to another dimension, like in the movies. This is not a "figure of speech" - it really happened - and I don't know what would happen with me if it continued. If I didn't have that thought.
You ask "did something go away?" This powerful experience go away. And my normal life came back. I did not believe!
Why it happened? What I did for it to happen? It was a blessing.

After that, I started to realize that it was an "experience" and I was very happy because all this was new for me. "New" in a sense, because when it happened I realized that it was NOTHING, as I said before. I knew it all my life, since when I was a baby. That's why the word NOTHING came so strong when the experience finished. And I remember that I thought then, "If people knew what "enlightenment" (or wich name we want to give it) is - they would run from it. They wouldn't want it. It is nothing special. (What people usually want is the opposite: fame, money etc.). That's why I was so shure that I had seen the REAL thing.

When I came back (Why I came back? I really came back? I am still there but just don't realize it? I know that the answer is YES, but how to know that the answer is yes, but not only mentally?) everything was exactly the way it always was - I lost that experience, that moment of joy. This happened almost ten years ago. Since then I lost the will to persecute any goal.
Well, I am almost 66, so, no much goals ahead. Can you help me?

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:17 am

Your way of elaborate answering is very fruitful for this process. Keep it up!

Can you help me?
Yes.
You already tapped into it.
You are willing and ready.
You can relax now.
It is out of control anyway.


I lost that experience, that moment of joy.
Grasping onto one specific experience is what can bind you in the expectation trap.
Can you be wide open for whatever might happen and for whatever "it" might look and feel like?

You're looking at a screen and expecting the colour yellow (a moment of joy) to appear again.
Yellow might appear or not. It might appear later this day or in two years again.
Through this expectation however, you don't appreciate all the other beautiful colours that appear.
While waiting for only yellow, you can't appreciate them or even miss them.
Can you be wide open for all colours?


When I came back
Hold on here.
Did a real concrete thing called "I" come back?
Or just thoughts about an "I"?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:24 pm

HI Matthew,
You already tapped into it.
You are willing and ready.
You can relax now.
It is out of control anyway.
Thank you.
Grasping onto one specific experience is what can bind you in the expectation trap.
Can you be wide open for whatever might happen and for whatever "it" might look and feel like?
I have already thoght about it. Yes, I thought that it could happen in a totally different way. Like: little by litttle, no explosions but just a smooth change (like happens with so many people). What I have been doing for this to happen? Whenever I remember, I try to pay attention, as much as possible, to what happens around me (people walking, a barking dog, music in the background - and of course, feelings and thoughts and sensations). These tree last ones are the hardest, because if I am not fast enough, they come already attached with the "I", the ego (or the "demon"). But I keep trying. Sometimes, in the middle of this exercise, things look more sharper, the colours more bright. I take this as a good sign. I know that the sense o "I" comes attached with concepts and judgements - they are like the best pals. But I got it. When I suceed in the "not atachment" way, things look (a little bit) more clear and, I think, more truer.
For many years I waited for that experience come back. Now, I am doing this exercises. I am not very sharp, but I keep trying. But as you said, it is out of control anyway.
Hold on here.
Did a real concrete thing called "I" come back?
Or just thoughts about an "I"?
No, as I said before, the thought "I" that comes attached with every thought. I am convinced that the I does not exist, just the thought "I".

Thank you for taking time to help me. Have a good day.

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:51 am

(like happens with so many people)
Does it matter what others might experience or not?
This is very important:

Do not rely upon anything, that might or might not have occured outside of this present experience.
That would be relying on assumptions and beliefs.

Only ever stay with your very own present experience.
Always only look at and investigate this very experience.
It is ALL already there ready to be discovered. And it is ONLY there to be discovered. It is not to be discovered in thought stories about others.
This advice is true in the beginning, the middle and in the end.


as I said before, the thought "I" that comes attached with every thought. I am convinced that the I does not exist, just the thought "I"
Sounds like a serious knot right there :-)

Let's try something for fun:
Look at your arm. What you see is colour. Sure, thought labels the colour as "arm", but in the end, it is just colour.
Look at your arm until you see, that it is really just colour at the most basic level.

Then hold your arm against the background.

How do you know that you are colour labelled "arm" and not colour labelled "background"?
How do you know that you are this colour and not that colour? And is that true?

Doesn't all colour, no matter the label, appear in the exact same space and instance?

Do you SEE any separation or boundary within this one space?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:05 pm

Good morning Matthew,
Does it matter what others might experience or not?
No. It does not matter.
Do not rely upon anything, that might or might not have occured outside of this present experience.
That would be relying on assumptions and beliefs
OK. Thank you for reminding me.
Only ever stay with your very own present experience.
Always only look at and investigate this very experience.
It is ALL already there ready to be discovered. And it is ONLY there to be discovered. It is not to be discovered in thought stories about others.
This advice is true in the beginning, the middle and in the end.
Yes, you are right. OK. I will remember this for now on.
How do you know that you are colour labelled "arm" and not colour labelled "background"?
How do you know that you are this colour and not that colour? And is that true?
I don't know. I think that if I look at the colour of my arm in the most basic level. I am that colour. If I put my arm against the background, I am both. I am the two colours, arm and background colour.
How do you know that you are colour labelled "arm" and not colour labelled "background"?
How do you know that you are this colour and not that colour? And is that true?

Doesn't all colour, no matter the label, appear in the exact same space and instance?

Do you SEE any separation or boundary within this one space?
There is no way to know. If I already accepted that I am one of those colours, I am both. I don't see separation. I have just experienced this. And it doesn't matter the distance (if the background is a little farther away, Is the same).

Thank you.

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:48 am

How does it feel to see this?

Sometimes, even after having seen this, thought gives a sense of subjectivity. A sense of personhood. A sense of separation.
Does that change anything truly?

Can you see that also this sense of separation is part of the movie?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:23 pm

How does it feel to see this?

Sometimes, even after having seen this, thought gives a sense of subjectivity. A sense of personhood. A sense of separation.
Does that change anything truly?

Really, it didn't change much. It was an obvious response - I understood what implied and I had to give the only response that I thought it was true. It was not a discovery. But no, nothing changed. In fact I knew already this exercise, that I saw in some book.
Can you see that also this sense of separation is part of the movie?
Yes, and this is more challenger, because is implicit that the sounds, near or far away, and all around is part of the movie. Made of the same "material". Like I sensed when the glimpse happened. But now, just the mind was engaged. Maybe if I do this many times something would occur. I don't know.

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:08 pm

In fact I knew already this exercise, that I saw in some book.
Please do not, never never ever ever respond with "correct" answers!
You have certainly acquired a lot of knowledge on your apparent spiritual path so far.
The teachers on those dream paths even preach, that you have to acquire knowledge, right?
Well, this knowledge has become nothing but a burden. You are at a point, where one has to forget about all knowledge and look for himself. Only for himself. With NO reliance upon what was learned from books or teachers.

When answering a question, then you have to answer it from a standpoint, as if you've never heard about any of those things before. That's quite a challange, isn't it?
But it needs to happen.

Right now you are a historian looking at temple paintings.
You can say exactly, who made them, when they were made, what they are depicting and so on.
But all these data is not of interest here, not even in the slightest.

A little child knows nothing about all the data above.
When a child looks at temple paintings, it just goes: "AAAWW".

You have to be like the child when looking at things.

Do you think, you can do that?
Forget about all the acquired knowledge and only look for yourself?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.

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Tomcat
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Tomcat » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:51 pm

When answering a question, then you have to answer it from a standpoint, as if you've never heard about any of those things before. That's quite a challange, isn't it?
But it needs to happen
Yes It is difficult because I answered based on experience. Based in a remembrance. This was also in some book, but this matter?
I answered based in a experience I had.

Yes, but I can see your point.
Let's do it. Responding to things - exercises - as If I am listening to them for the first time and with nothing besides the senses involved. (When It did, I immediately remembered that I knew It). But I'm willing to do It in the way that it has to be done. It will be difficult, but let's do it..

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Matthew
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Re: Peering through the gate

Postby Matthew » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:35 pm

Did a real concrete thing called "I" come back?
Or just thoughts about an "I"?
No, as I said before, the thought "I" that comes attached with every thought. I am convinced that the I does not exist, just the thought "I".

The thought "I" comes up often, yes.
But does that make it special?
Is there anything truly speacial about the thought "I"?

Bring up the thought "I" and look at it.
Say it many times until it is right there.
After which, bring up another thought. "Icecream" for example.
Compare the two while looking directly at them.
Is the thought "I" more special than the thought "Icecream"?

While looking directly at the thought "I":
Can "I" think other thoughts?
First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.


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