Plangent Noise

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:46 pm

Could it be any different? If yes how do you know?
Was there any free will involved?
There is no free will if there is no doer.
If it is all just happening, rolling along like a book or a movie or a video game then there is no doer to do any of it.
life just is.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:21 am

Could it be any different? If yes how do you know?
Was there any free will involved?
There is no free will if there is no doer.
If it is all just happening, rolling along like a book or a movie or a video game then there is no doer to do any of it.
life just is.
Sure Zoe.
But are you saying this from knowledge - memory?
Or can you see it clearly now ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:43 am

After you answer my previous questions
Let's look at this idea of "Time"..

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last? Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'? What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Have you ever actually experienced the past ?
I am not asking have you had a thought in the present about an apparent past..
Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:40 pm

But are you saying this from knowledge - memory?
Or can you see it clearly now?
I see it clearly now and I also can look back and see that it was like this all along.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
It is always now. No experience of one separate moment being now and another one coming or anything like that.
The idea of a "past" is happening right now as a thought.
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last? Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'? What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
There is no “present moment or past moment” moving. It is always now. There is no real feeling of time going by. That is a thought
Have you ever actually experienced the past?
I am not asking have you had a thought in the present about an apparent past.
Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers?
It is impossible to experience the past because it doesn’t exist. It is just an idea or construct.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:36 am

But are you saying this from knowledge - memory?
Or can you see it clearly now?
I see it clearly now and I also can look back and see that it was like this all along.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
It is always now. No experience of one separate moment being now and another one coming or anything like that.
The idea of a "past" is happening right now as a thought.
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last? Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'? What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
There is no “present moment or past moment” moving. It is always now. There is no real feeling of time going by. That is a thought
Have you ever actually experienced the past?
I am not asking have you had a thought in the present about an apparent past.
Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers?
It is impossible to experience the past because it doesn’t exist. It is just an idea or construct.
Very good looking. Thank you.
Do you have questions or unclear areas until now ?
If yes please ask all questions in mind..

Thank you

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:42 am

let's look at the concept of "memory" also..
There is a belief that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:36 pm

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
memory is same as any other thought. it is always happening now. It seems that all thought is "false" not what is really happening. It is a label or picture about life but it is not life itself.
A memory thought is a repeated thought that we label as memory.
As a matter of fact, most thought it a repetition of the same patterns over and over with labels made of sound with pictures.
we label stuff as "past" when replaying something we think "happened in time"

Is thought just labeling what is happening?
What is thought?

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:48 am

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
memory is same as any other thought. it is always happening now. It seems that all thought is "false" not what is really happening. It is a label or picture about life but it is not life itself.
A memory thought is a repeated thought that we label as memory.
As a matter of fact, most thought it a repetition of the same patterns over and over with labels made of sound with pictures.
we label stuff as "past" when replaying something we think "happened in time"

Very good looking but we cannot say that thought is repeating.
Repeat points to "time".
There is no time.
It is just another thought claiming "i know, i had this thought before" which is another thought.
Is thought just labeling what is happening?
What is thought?
thought just arises. It only is.

It is only what is..

Arising in the now.

Whatever we can say will be another thought about thought.
Let's say If we have headache we can say
In direct experience:
sensation+thought about that sensation is arising.

They are not separate. It just is.

Is that clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:53 am

Let's make check point here to see what's going on..

and can you tell me please which one of the following list you still believe ?

1-I AM MY NAME
2-I AM THIS IMAGE IN THE MIRROR I HAVE A BODY, I AM IN THIS BODY OR MIND,
3-THERE IS A CENTER EXPERIENCING LIFE,
4-THERE IS CONTROL, I CAN CONTROL THINGS
5-I HAVE FREE WILL,
6-I CAN DECIDE - CHOOSE THINGS,
7-YESTERDAY, TOMORROW, NOW, PAST FUTURE HISTORY ETC. IS REAL
8-THERE ARE OTHERS AND I AM SEPARATE THEN THEM"
9-THERE IS A FEELING Of ME AND IT IS A PROOF OF A SEPERATE I / SELF / ME
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:01 pm

1-I AM MY NAME
2-I AM THIS IMAGE IN THE MIRROR I HAVE A BODY, I AM IN THIS BODY OR MIND,
3-THERE IS A CENTER EXPERIENCING LIFE,
4-THERE IS CONTROL, I CAN CONTROL THINGS
5-I HAVE FREE WILL,
6-I CAN DECIDE - CHOOSE THINGS,
7-YESTERDAY, TOMORROW, NOW, PAST FUTURE HISTORY ETC. IS REAL
8-THERE ARE OTHERS AND I AM SEPARATE THEN THEM"
9-THERE IS A FEELING Of ME AND IT IS A PROOF OF A SEPERATE I / SELF / ME
None of these are real or applicable. Clearly, this is true

there is a "feeling of me" but it is not proof that there actually is a "me". it is just sensations and thought/feelings arising.
I have no idea how any of it is happening and it isn't really important.
Just knowing there is no "i" that is responsible for all of this or had to "try to control" is freeing.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:54 am

1-I AM MY NAME
2-I AM THIS IMAGE IN THE MIRROR I HAVE A BODY, I AM IN THIS BODY OR MIND,
3-THERE IS A CENTER EXPERIENCING LIFE,
4-THERE IS CONTROL, I CAN CONTROL THINGS
5-I HAVE FREE WILL,
6-I CAN DECIDE - CHOOSE THINGS,
7-YESTERDAY, TOMORROW, NOW, PAST FUTURE HISTORY ETC. IS REAL
8-THERE ARE OTHERS AND I AM SEPARATE THEN THEM"
9-THERE IS A FEELING Of ME AND IT IS A PROOF OF A SEPERATE I / SELF / ME
None of these are real or applicable. Clearly, this is true

there is a "feeling of me" but it is not proof that there actually is a "me". it is just sensations and thought/feelings arising.
I have no idea how any of it is happening and it isn't really important.
Just knowing there is no "i" that is responsible for all of this or had to "try to control" is freeing.
None of these are real or applicable. Clearly, this is true
This is good news :)
Means that final questions are on the way ;)

there is a "feeling of me" but it is not proof that there actually is a "me".

Try to observe this feeling of me a bit more throughout your day.
See how this feeling moves from here to there depending on what task you perform.
Where is it when you are reading these words?
Where is it when you drive a car?
Where is it when you go to sleep, brush your teeth, eat lunch or watch TV?
Aren't there many times when you are simply not aware of it at all?
Maybe it only shows up when you think about it?
If so, can it really be "you" or is this just a certain support system to the belief of there being a separate me, a physical support to the thought-story?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:58 pm

Try to observe this feeling of me a bit more throughout your day.
See how this feeling moves from here to there depending on what task you perform.
Where is it when you are reading these words?
Where is it when you drive a car?
Where is it when you go to sleep, brush your teeth, eat lunch or watch TV?
Aren't there many times when you are simply not aware of it at all?
Maybe it only shows up when you think about it?
If so, can it really be "you" or is this just a certain support system to the belief of there being a separate me, physical support to the thought-story?
It seems that the "sense of a self" is part of the story, it is set up that way to seem plausible or "believable" somehow.
But a lot of the time it just isn't there. You have to keep recreating it over and over, reminding yourself that you are a separate being. When I am most content it is not there at all. there is just doing or being without any though of a "me"

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:31 am

Ok Zoe.
I see that you are clear on almost everything..
If you have questions please ask...
Meanwhile let's look at the idea of others...

Please bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend". Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts? Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend". After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference? Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?

What is the actual experience of others ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:36 am

by the way can you please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works ?

Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:26 pm

Is there a difference in these thoughts? Is there a true difference or is it just different content?
It is really just different content.

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend". After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference? Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?
No it is all one thing being labeled as different things
What is the actual experience of others ?
The only difference is their “thoughts” seem to be concealed, there is mystery. I don’t have access to their thought bubbles from “here” things just happen.
But other than that it is all the same thing
by the way can you please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works ?
It seems like there is hidden knowledge or secrets that other separate beings know that I don’t know. It just appears that things are cordoned off.
It is probably part of some game we are playing with “ourself” like hide and seek. I don’t think I am supposed to know.
I can’t really explain or know it got started originally. I can make up a story about language and labels. I can assume that as babies and small children it isn’t there. I can remember learning language and how that felt. How I felt whole and part of everything. I remember that feeling early in life.
I have an inkling of how it got started but I don’t have a clear specific proof of anything. Those are just more thought-feelings which are more labels.


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