Plangent Noise

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:11 am

hey Zoe,
I would kindly remind you that we advise to write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and build a momentum.
Thank you.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:54 pm

where is it coming from and where is it going?
The thoughts just pop in. often they are generated by a prompting. if there is a question it gets answered
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
There is no knowing what the next thought is. Like in a dream things just appear in the visual and mental and hearing field.
Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another thought :)
There is no me to stop thoughts from coming. there can be a random song or an echo from the past that just gets burped up. it seems random but there are sometimes associations sometimes from things triggered by what is seen, smelled heard etc.
Is there a thinker?
there is no thinker, there are just things appearing. thoughts appearing
Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
thoughts just pop in automatically dependent upon patterns from the past or things seen heard felt smelled, etc in the present moment. thoughts are associative and repetitive
Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?
No, you can have a thought that has sounds smells, visual portions. there are a variety of types or forms it can take but the point of view or focus is always on one thought-form at a time.

Code: Select all

Do you really have control over thoughts?
There is really no you to have control over thoughts. it can be suggested that you think a certain thought but that is another trigger so the affirmation thought is being generated due to a thought cue.
It is like controlling breathing. you can take conscious control for a little while if it is suggested to do so. but then it goes back on autopilot as soon as you take the attention off of the breathing.

Thought is another "bodily function" like breathing only it is compulsive, unnatural, on overdrive. Thought happens automatically. It seems that it is what the brain does once it learns to form language and symbols and abstractions. Thought makes patterns and meaning out of everything it sees. that is the brain's job, to make sense of things, label things, evaluate things. is this good for "me" or bad for "me"? Am I safe?
Once language/symbolism is thrown into it the human brain does this compulsively.
Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
The "I" thought is another story coming from the same place as the other thoughts. no one really knows where the thoughts are coming from, or how they are generated though there are tons of stories about where the thoughts are generated. I have no idea what thought is or where it comes from.



Can a thought think?

A thought cannot do anything. it just is. it floats in or pops in and then disappears or dissipates and another thought comes in.

What can a thought (me thought) do ?
A me thought just creates confusion, disorientation, a sense of something that is false. it cannot do anything but it appears to be doing everything. it thinks I am doing this, I am thinking that. but really "me" is an afterthought. it jumps in after the other thoughts and claims that it did them.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:38 pm

Brilliant looking Zoe, i see that you see what's going on here ;)
Thank you..


Let's look deeper for these;
seems that it is what the brain does once it learns to form language and symbols and abstractions. Thought makes patterns and meaning out of everything it sees. that is the brain's job,
What is the actual experience of a "brain" ? ,
Is there a ‘brain’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored ?

What can a thought (me thought) do ?
A me thought just creates confusion, disorientation, a sense of something that is false. it cannot do anything but it appears to be doing everything. it thinks I am doing this, I am thinking that. but really "me" is an afterthought. it jumps in after the other thoughts and claims that it did them.
"Appears to be" is your key word here..
As you said "Me thought" absolutely can't do anything..
It is again another thoughts saying "This confusion disorientation, sense of something false is created by "me thought".

Where is the "I" when there is no thought about it?

Can you say clearly that "i", "self" "Zoe", is just a thought ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:40 pm

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an insde or an outisde? If there is an inside - the insde of what exactly? If there is an outsde - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last queston. Take your time, don’t rush.
You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washng hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:13 pm

Where is the "I" when there is no thought about it?
The I doesn’t exist without the I thought. It comes into existence when it is thought.
Can you say clearly that "i", "self" "Zoe", is just a thought?
It is only a thought. You cannot find the “self” anywhere it is like a story. Not reality
Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
There is no real sense of the body with eyes closed. There are a few sensations at times but a lot of the body is nonexistent. It is like it disappears or becomes shapeless. The sensations of the body are very few. Breathing happens. Some type of sensation of clothing in a few places, the feel of the bottom and thighs against the seat at times. But not much else.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?


It feels as if there is just a sensation without differentiating what is felt as chair or clothing. none of it is separate.
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
With eyes closed the idea of inside and outside disappears there is just awareness that is not differentiated by inside and outside. There is a memory of what that is, an idea or thought about the room around the body. But it is just an idea not a real inside or outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
It seems to refer to an idea that I can remember but that with eyes closed I don’t really experience a body. There are just some sensations and there is an awareness but the awareness is not a body.

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:31 pm

What is the actual experience of a "brain"? ,
Is there a ‘brain’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored?
Brain too is just an idea. there is no experience that is connected with the idea of "brain" it is all just happening and there is no brain involved.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:25 am

Where is the "I" when there is no thought about it?
The I doesn’t exist without the I thought. It comes into existence when it is thought.
Can you say clearly that "i", "self" "Zoe", is just a thought?
It is only a thought. You cannot find the “self” anywhere it is like a story. Not reality
Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
There is no real sense of the body with eyes closed. There are a few sensations at times but a lot of the body is nonexistent. It is like it disappears or becomes shapeless. The sensations of the body are very few. Breathing happens. Some type of sensation of clothing in a few places, the feel of the bottom and thighs against the seat at times. But not much else.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?


It feels as if there is just a sensation without differentiating what is felt as chair or clothing. none of it is separate.
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
With eyes closed the idea of inside and outside disappears there is just awareness that is not differentiated by inside and outside. There is a memory of what that is, an idea or thought about the room around the body. But it is just an idea not a real inside or outside.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
It seems to refer to an idea that I can remember but that with eyes closed I don’t really experience a body. There are just some sensations and there is an awareness but the awareness is not a body.
Thank you Zoe. Very good looking..

Do you experience "a body" when eyes are open?
What is actually experienced when eyes are open?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:46 pm

Do you experience "a body" when eyes are open?
What is actually experienced when eyes are open?
Thank you for the wonderful question: In actuality, I experience the same thing when eyes are open as when eyes are closed.

But this is trickier to notice with the eyes open. The entire "hologram" (or whatever it is) seems very convincing with the eyes open.

The illusion of a body is much stronger when there is a visual stimulus to back up the "idea" of a body. The "mind" or "awareness" (whatever that is), fills in the "details" making the illusion of having a body more concrete.

I experience much more sense of being a body in "space" with the eyes open. There is a stronger sense of directions, being in a body that is upright, there seems to be an above, and a below. There is a sense of the environment reinforcing the idea of a body. I know this is not what is really happening but this is what appears to be happening with the eyes open.

It really is quite an amazing show or trick! There is probably no way to see how it is done, and that is beside the point. I don't need to "know".

(sorry, had to use the words: body, mind, awareness hologram, details, you will be right to object to the inaccuracies, sloppiness, and lack of exactitude, as they are not accurate. Hey, I'm typing here and using words. these are the limitations of using language.)

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:35 pm

Do you experience "a body" when eyes are open?
What is actually experienced when eyes are open?
Thank you for the wonderful question: In actuality, I experience the same thing when eyes are open as when eyes are closed.

But this is trickier to notice with the eyes open. The entire "hologram" (or whatever it is) seems very convincing with the eyes open.

The illusion of a body is much stronger when there is a visual stimulus to back up the "idea" of a body. The "mind" or "awareness" (whatever that is), fills in the "details" making the illusion of having a body more concrete.

I experience much more sense of being a body in "space" with the eyes open. There is a stronger sense of directions, being in a body that is upright, there seems to be an above, and a below. There is a sense of the environment reinforcing the idea of a body. I know this is not what is really happening but this is what appears to be happening with the eyes open.

It really is quite an amazing show or trick! There is probably no way to see how it is done, and that is beside the point. I don't need to "know".

(sorry, had to use the words: body, mind, awareness hologram, details, you will be right to object to the inaccuracies, sloppiness, and lack of exactitude, as they are not accurate. Hey, I'm typing here and using words. these are the limitations of using language.)
Thank you for your reply Zoe :)
It really is quite an amazing show or trick!
yeah. you can sure say it is a trick thought plays.
Some call it cosmic joke.
A constant auto labeling made by thought make it look like something :)

(sorry, had to use the words: body, mind, awareness hologram, details, you will be right to object to the inaccuracies, sloppiness, and lack of exactitude, as they are not accurate. Hey, I'm typing here and using words. these are the limitations of using language.)
No need to be sorry :) All is ok.
yes as you say language creates this sense of doer.

About the body let's look deeper..

What thought labels as a ‘body’ is actually the presence of sensation, image/colour and thought.

Does the label/word (thought) ‘body’ know anything about a body?
Does sensation know anything about a body?
Does colour know anything about a body?
Does sound know anything about a body?
Does taste know anything about a body?
Does smell know anything about a body?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:23 pm

After answering my previous pointers please make this exercise

Here s an even deeper investgaton of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental mages suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).


Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘gong through the room’; OR s there only an mage that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?


Waiting for your answers..

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:56 pm

Does the label/word (thought) ‘body’ know anything about a body?
No, it is just a label or symbol. It gives a sound and a picture that goes with it.
Does sensation know anything about a body?
The sensation is direct knowing of just sensation no label
Does colour know anything about a body?
Color is a direct experience without a label attached
Does sound know anything about a body?
Sound is just sound not a body label
Does taste know anything about a body?
Taste is a pure experience without a body label
Does smell know anything about a body?
Like the rest, it is a direct experience without a body-label

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?
There is really only a thought or habit of thinking “that is my body” but no actual connection between felt sensations and the image.
The only thing that seems related to the mirror image is the breathing sensation felt inside the body and the image are breathing at the same exact rate, but everything else is just thoughts that assume that the body is a representation of “me” or “my body”
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
Again there is no connection between the two
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
There are stories, assumptions, thoughts not an actual connection
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?


There are colors and shapes that I have learned to recognize as “my body” but really there are only colors and shapes.
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
Just mental images that suggest this.
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored or are there only sensations?
It is all purely sensation.
(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
The whole thing is a sensation. There is a thought that this is ”my body” walking around but in reality that is just a thought.
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR s there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
There is an idea or map of a room but that is just an abstract thought. I cannot find a location or room anywhere.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:31 am

Thank you for your brilliant direct looking Zoe!

Sure A sensation is not a body
A thought is not a body
A image is not a body
A sound is not a body
A smell is not a body
A taste is not a body

As you see there is thought (assumptions, stories, feelings) about a body but;
There is NO BODY!
Period.

Is this clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:05 pm

Remember you have said,
There is really no you to have control over thoughts. it can be suggested that you think a certain thought but that is another trigger so the affirmation thought is being generated due to a thought cue.
It is like controlling breathing. you can take conscious control for a little while if it is suggested to do so. but then it goes back on autopilot as soon as you take the attention off of the breathing.
So you have seen how thoughts appear automatic and there is no control.

You can clearly see that decision also is another thought and also it happens it self

Let's look


1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down. 2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
Why not the other hand but this ?
How is the decision made?

Tell me what comes
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:29 pm

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down. 2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
Why not the other hand but this?
How is the decision made?

Tell me what comes
It just happens
Why does it happen? following the storyline? who knows? there is no answer.
it just is...
It seems like magic
poof movement appears
Just like thought, movement comes about from no place, from emptiness
there is no "thought" before the hand raises
First "I" did the left hand because that is my dominant hand I guess
then "I decided" to do the right hand.
but really it just happens. movement happens.
Then thought rushes in to say "I did that" or "I thought of doing that and then I did it."

But really stuff is just happening without thought. like magic!

This happens with everything, not just movement. something is seen, felt, moved, etc
and then thought rushes in to tape it all together into some kind of coherent story.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:43 pm

This happens with everything, not just movement. something is seen, felt, moved, etc
and then thought rushes in to tape it all together into some kind of coherent story.
Wonderful seeing.
Thank you.

:)

So look back to the story of your life..
Any decision you made, can be anything..
Buying a house, phone, choosing you partner, profession..
Could it be any different? If yes how do you know?
Was there any free will involved?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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