Plangent Noise

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Zoe
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Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:04 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What we think of as a separate self is an illusion created when we learn concepts and language. It creates and is the ego itself. As infants and,toddlers we don't have this concept of separation. The separate self leads to lot of fear, confusion, losing touch with the natural flow of life. cultures are able to blindly destroy things for profit.

What are you looking for at LU?
Getting out of the box, waking up. I have had glimpses where I spontaneously saw a different perspective free from a sense of a private self. The only lasted a few hours and then the old perspective came back. It was,a clear delineation between the two ways of seeing. No doubt or confusion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
It is hard to do it yourself. Sometimes another person can help you see the obvious. I dont think everyone needs help. Some people just get it spontaneously and never revert back. It is crystal clear to them.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation on my own,-going to satsangs, online courses, reading about consciousness. Listening to podcasts. Found this,site through hearing about it on batgap.com

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:48 pm

Hello Zoe..

Welcome to Libeation Unleashed.

My name is Adil and i am a guide here.

We can start a journey if you like.

What shall i call you ? Is it Zoe ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:40 am

Hi Adil,
Yes, my name is Zoe. thanks for working with me!

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:23 am

Hello Zoe
Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

If all ok let's start..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:25 am

What's missing Zoe ?
What do you think will happen in our conversation ?
Tell me more about your expectations please..


And please tell me what comes when i say to you:

THERE IS NO YOU! YOU NEVER EXISTED! IN ANY FORM! YOU ARE ONLY A THOUGHT! YOU EVEN DON'T HAVE A BODY!

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:26 am

What's missing? that is a good question.
There is something hidden in plain sight I think.
I sense that this is not what is really happening or it is only a little piece of what could be experienced,
Not that I think it is necessary to"know more" more information. that is not what I am here for.
I am not here for some "flashy experience" of light shooting out of my head or any of that kind of dramatic story.

It is much simpler. Just to take away the film that covers the direct experience of life.
When that film is gone it is very good, peaceful, simple not some fancy thing added on. just taking away the story of how it is a separate thing.

What do I think will happen in our conversation?
I am not sure what will happen but I think it might help me uncover or take away the film or the screen that is blocking a direct view of what is really here.

Kind of like seeing the convex instead of concave, suddenly or gradually the picture flips.

They were both there all along but I got stuck just seeing one view.

Like that classic visual drawing exercise where you see a young woman or an old woman. and it takes a while to see the other picture within the picture. Those optical illusion exercises. a rabbit and a man with a beard in the same drawing, etc. the vases and the face profiles. if you know what I am referring to. most people see only the vases and then someone points out "see how the vases are white but the black negative space around them is actually two faces in profile."

"Oh yes, now I see them, it was there all along. I just needed someone who already saw them, to point them out.
hey! now I can switch back and fort hand see the vases and the faces."

That is what I am expecting. I already know there is a second reality hidden in plain sight because I have gotten a really good peek a few times. but now I can't remember how to get there. I just need you to point out a few things so I can see what is already here.


THERE IS NO YOU! YOU NEVER EXISTED! IN ANY FORM! YOU ARE ONLY A THOUGHT! YOU EVEN DON'T HAVE A BODY!

this is an interesting statement because I often notice that this isn't what it appears to be.

It flickers if one pays attention. the sight and sound are not continuous. the experience only seems continuous. But if one looks carefully there is a lot of flickering. I don't know how else to describe it, jittering. recapitulation of the thing over and over. like a thought. it keeps getting resaid it comes in and out in little chunks really.

If one focuses the eyes on something it begins to be noticeable that it is refocusing over and over. it cannot really ever stare or fixate on any one thing. not really.

I always have felt awkward about using a name for instance. it has always seemed like a strange setup or formality. and I always wonder when people apologize for forgetting my name or get insulted if someone miss spells or miss pronounces their name. How can they actually think they have a name for real? or that it matters if someone forgets it?

The body is not "it" but it is a clue I guess. when you feel around it it is mostly not there unless you go to place on the body and focus. like pick the feet and focus on them or the hands. or different parts. but mostly it is numb or not really there unless you focus on it. If you close the eyes and hold out the arm you just feel the fingertips on the end, not the middle part, the arm part isn't really there when the eyes are closed, etc. lots of little experiments like that can be played with closing the eyes and trying to find a body.

Mostly I experience being a separate body with the "sense of a self" behind the eyes in the forehead area. I think that is how most people learn to do it. It's hard tp talk about because the language is set up for subject-object, a "me" and a "you" having a talk.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:13 am

Thank you very much for your explanations Zoe.
It is good to read what you have in your mind.

Now we have to put aside what we know, or think about whats going on and start to look!
Our main focus here is seeing through the illusion of what we call "I," "me," or "self."
And we will be making this investigation by focusing to our direct experience. We will always be looking to the actual experiences. This looking and not finding will bring the realization.

It is simple and plain. Like looking for your keys in your pocket.

Imagine you lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your pocket. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty out all your pockets, still no keys. You feel very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there.

In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are feeling. This happens all the time.
The problem is that believing in your feelings and not your direct experience will keep you from understanding clearly.

It is important to understand that just because you feel something is true, does not mean that it is. You can simply look and see what is true and what is not.

Actual experience is the raw experience of direct experiences
colour
sound
smell
sensation
taste
and the simple knowing of thought at face value.
NOT the content of thought. Why not content ? Can you find an actual "bird" in the thought content "bird"?
I experience being a separate body with the "sense of a self" behind the eyes in the forehead area
Please see, touch, smell, hear, or taste the “I” behind the eyes.
How do you sense it? (i am not asking a thought story about it)
What is actually / really there
?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:19 pm

I experience being a separate body with the "sense of a self" behind the eyes in the forehead area
Please see, touch, smell, hear, or taste the “I” behind the eyes.
How do you sense it? (i am not asking a thought story about it)
What is actually / really there
?
[/quote]

When I try to find and feel the sense of self or I behind the eyes it slips away. I can't really pinpoint any one place that is the "i" there are sounds from the outside, cars going by, airplanes, the rushing sound of the circulating blood all the sound is kind of localized in the head area and thought sounds. I have no idea where the "thought sounds" come from, but they appear in the same "head area".

Then the vision area is also available. with eyes opened or closed. I see lots of light with the eyes closed, light on the eyelids and a general sense of seeing. images come in too. then there is the feeling of the body the head and neck and face. how the skin feels as the air brushes it. then more distance is a bodily sensation. feeling the seat and the floor.
But when I look for a someone who is experiencing it all there is no place to find it.
the sensation of the "me" behind the eyes moves around. it is further down toward the inside of the throat. then it is behind the eyes again. it is more like a point of view that sort of shifts around or floats around.
the idea of outside and inside the body becomes lost. the "sense of I" could be almost anywhere and nowhere!
There is sound and light and color and thoughts but I have no idea what it is or how it is all happening really.

It is all just happening
somehow it gets connected together into a concept or a story that makes senses and seems to be a "self" in an environment with a body. But if I look closely I can see that something else is going on.
If I look around at different things they come into focus, then I move on and that thing becomes blurry and is part of the "peripheral" vision, it's blurry and a new thing is in focus.
There is nothing here as "me" except a point of view that is always changing and shifting. some things, sensations, views, sounds are in clear focus while others are blurred, not noticed as much or completely forgotten.

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:44 am

Thanks for the detailed answer Zoe :)
You made a good investigation here.
There is nothing here as "me" except a point of view that is always changing and shifting. some things, sensations, views, sounds are in clear focus while others are blurred, not noticed as much or completely forgotten.
Yes. sensation exists. color exist. sound exist. smell exist.
But without labels they are just what is...

Ok so you can not touch smell hear or taste it.
I read lots of thought stories about what's going on there so we can say that there is no actual experience of a "i" behind eyes can we ?

the sensation of the "me" behind the eyes moves around.
How do you know that this is "sensation of me"
Does this sensation carry any information that it is a "me" ? Or is it only a sensation ?


Please answer without going to thought stories and just try to see what is really here and now!

Sending much love..

After you answer my blue marked pointers let's have a look at labels more..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:46 am

Here is a brilliant article from dear Ilona,

Please read this article and make the exercise given there and report me what comes...

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html


Thank you

Waiting to here from you
Sending love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Zoe
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Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:34 pm

How do you know that this is "sensation of me"
Does this sensation carry any information that it is a "me" ? Or is it only a sensation?


There is no information that there is a "me" there are only sensations in the body. any idea of a "me' or sense of a self is a storyline or words in the form of thought. but aside from the thought about the sensations, there are only the sensations themselves. very alive and relaxing and pleasant.

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Zoe
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby Zoe » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:38 pm

I read the article and did the exercise. I am starting to see that the labels are just labels that are convenient when speaking to another but they are not needed for direct experience. There is still an idea that I am a separate personality, but I am starting to see that it might be just an idea. It feels very strong. but when I look for a separate "me" I cannot find it. all that is there is what is happening. No "me". It is a weird feeling. sort of... disconcerting. like I misplaced something!

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adilerten
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Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:19 am

How do you know that this is "sensation of me"
Does this sensation carry any information that it is a "me" ? Or is it only a sensation?


There is no information that there is a "me" there are only sensations in the body. any idea of a "me' or sense of a self is a storyline or words in the form of thought. but aside from the thought about the sensations, there are only the sensations themselves. very alive and relaxing and pleasant.

Yes Zoe there is only sensation. Then thought labels the sensation as "this is back pain this is the location"
"this is head ache this is the location" "this is hot" etc.
Actually all is there is a sensatin+thought
So as you said it is not a "me". It is only a sensation.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:25 am

I read the article and did the exercise. I am starting to see that the labels are just labels that are convenient when speaking to another but they are not needed for direct experience. There is still an idea that I am a separate personality, but I am starting to see that it might be just an idea. It feels very strong. but when I look for a separate "me" I cannot find it. all that is there is what is happening. No "me". It is a weird feeling. sort of... disconcerting. like I misplaced something!
Beautiful..
I see that you got what i wanted you to get from this exercise..
As you said all that is there what is happening.
sort of... disconcerting.
can you talk about this more ?
What do you feel about it ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Plangent Noise

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:40 am

any idea of a "me' or sense of a self is a storyline or words in the form of thought
So let's look at the thoughts if we have any control on them..

Sit down relax for 10 mins. Drop any kind of distractions..

Focus on any kind of thought appearing and ask questions below one by one and answer please..

Wait for the next thought and look,

where is it coming from and where is it going?

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?

Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another thought :)

Is there a thinker?

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

Do you really have control over thoughts?

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

Waiting for your answers..
Sending much love.


Can a thought think?

What can a thought (me thought) do ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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