I need to know the truth of what is

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sashajay
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I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:10 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The ‘self’ is an idea that comes about when experience appears to have an owner, a “me” that is choosing or participating in the experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to turn intellectual understanding of what is true into a deep realisation of the truth. I understand that I am not what I think I am! But it is a conceptual understanding, and there is resistance. Maybe because of conditioning. Hopefully I can break through this conditions and ignorance and if I work hard and with earnestness and intensity I can break the spell if the seperate self for good

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be pointed back to the truth I’ve rand over again. To be tripped up whenever I repeat a story that isn’t true and confuse it for the truth. I tend to think and theorise a lot and have formed sophisticated but useless models of what reality could be haha. I am ready to stop theorising and just accept what is. It will take a patient person to keep pushing against my ingrained belief system. That is my understanding of this process anyway but I’m open to whatever is required to get to the truth

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Several years of mediation to help quiet my monkey mind! It has helped and I feel as if I have moments of clarity. I had a brief experience of no self once in a vipassasna retreat. But it faded quickly and it didn’t stick. I have read ramana Maharishi and some other non-dual texts. Some of it helped but I struggle to go deep with self inquiry because my intellectual mind was easily distracted and possibly doesn’t like to accept the mundane nature of what is?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:00 am

Anybody here...???

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:26 am

Hi Sashajay,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

How would you like to be called?

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer, learned how to use the quote function and read the other links; then we can begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:51 am

Hi Kay,

You can call me Sasha

I have read all your links. I’ve been very keen to start this, so let’s get cracking :)

Many thanks
Sasha

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:23 pm

Hi Sasha,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:35 am

Hi Kay,

I'll do my best to answer honestly
How will life change?
I feel like these thing will happen once I realise there is no separate self:

- Life will flow around me and I won't have resistance to daily things
- Less stress / anxiety
- All this body tension will dissipate
- I will stop seeking
- Emotions and feelings will be more present in me; I feel like now there is many emotional blocks

I have experienced these things before. At one stage in my life about a year ago I experienced this after lots of meditation. There was a kind of spiritual crisis that was extremely difficult but very powerful and cathartic. It felt like part of me died and it was very pleasant for several months. There was a feeling of love eminating from my chest all of the time and I felt like Jesus (how embarrassing haha). But it has passed after a while, work and family stresses have built up and I feel like ego is in charge again. Seeking and seeking and seeking!

How will you change?
Part of me thinks that there will be no "me" and this will be the cure.
Another part feels like a new "me" will arise, a happier, stronger " me".
Another part of me knows this is a false thought, and something which is keeping me stuck.
Im aware of the paradox of this way of thinking but it keeps hooking me in, like an addiction or an unconscious process.
What will be different?
I imagine that life will be the same; I'll keep raising my kids, my wife will be cranky at me for doing silly things, I will still be forgetful, selfish (hopefully less so?), lacking in emotional depth and feeling, but acceptance will make it easier to deal with the daily stresses. The change will be within, not outside.
What is missing?
I feel like I need to realise "something" that I cant realise. I feel like it it is right infront of "me" but I cant reach it. I feel like if I stop seeking it it will move further away and another part of me knows that the more I seek, the further I get from what I am seeking. It is confusing. It is like I am driven by unconscious processes. Whenever I feel most at peace I start to question things again and move into the stressed out seeker mode.

I seem to oscillate between these two states, like a pendulum, usually over week or months

I also feel guilt about being pushy in this forum and towards you. I fee like it shows that i'm not ready to be free, like a kind of immaturity. I feel like guides have skipped me because they see something that I don't see, like there is a blind spot that is obvious to everyone but me that will keep me stuck forever.

One minute I feel like there is something special in me, that will help me achieve realisation quicker than others; like a kind of spiritual superiority. The next minute I realise that this a fantasy, and feel deflated and silly. And then I feel like i'm alone and abandoned by the world because there is something broken or unworthy in me, and people can see it.

I also feel like time is running out. There is fear that I am not able to realise no-self before I die

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:34 am

Hello Sasha,

The purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what the realisation of ‘no self’ may look and feel like and how you think life should then look like and how you should or shouldn’t be like or feel. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of this exploration and can also blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There are no trumpeting angels, sky lighting fireworks or huge signs letting you know that you have had the realisation. It is more than likely a very subtle shift that can be missed, especially if there are expectations, as well as comparisons to how others have experienced the realisation.

There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this guiding. Just also be aware that when desired outcomes to expectations are not met, then fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration etc can arise. These reactions/emotions will arise during our exploration as we investigate and question beliefs that seem to point to the idea of there being an “I”. When they do appear, please let me know so that we can look at them together.

When you read my responses...be aware of what arises ie sadness, anger, resistance, fear and so on and share this with me please.
How will life change?
I feel like these thing will happen once I realise there is no separate self:

- Life will flow around me and I won't have resistance to daily things
- Less stress / anxiety
- All this body tension will dissipate
- I will stop seeking
- Emotions and feelings will be more present in me; I feel like now there is many emotional blocks
The words “I feel” are thought based as they are not actual body sensations, however, life is already lifing and does not need a resistant or non-resistant you to do so! Secondly, there would have to be a you who is resisting life, for this to be possible! How can something be resisted when it is already happening? The idea of resistance is appearing, but it is not happening to a someone. Ideas about emotions and ‘body tension’ will continue to appear. There has NEVER ever been a separate self and yet those ideas have always appeared, so why would that change? Perception is what changes and a knowing arises that these ‘things’ are not happening to a ‘me’. Nothing in life is personal!

Thoughts can have a stuckness if they are habitually associated with recurring sensations in the body. When this kind of association appears, it is a good time to start digging! Usually the sensation in the body is being accepted as proof that the associated thoughts and ideas are correct. The association can be disrupted by carefully examining the body sensation and the thoughts, and seeing clearly that they are unrelated phenomena that happen to arise at the same time. This takes patience, the first few times it may not happen quickly, though over time it will become easier and quicker.
I have experienced these things before. At one stage in my life about a year ago I experienced this after lots of meditation. There was a kind of spiritual crisis that was extremely difficult but very powerful and cathartic. It felt like part of me died and it was very pleasant for several months. There was a feeling of love eminating from my chest all of the time and I felt like Jesus (how embarrassing haha). But it has passed after a while, work and family stresses have built up and I feel like ego is in charge again. Seeking and seeking and seeking!
Yes, seeking happens instead of LOOKING! Looking is not the same as seeking. Seeking is always towards something that is not present; or trying to get away from something that is present. Looking is investigating what is present; it's for no reason other than itself. It's done for its own sake. If you're expecting something from looking, then you're not looking, you're seeking what you expect looking will give you.
How will you change?
Part of me thinks that there will be no "me" and this will be the cure.
Another part feels like a new "me" will arise, a happier, stronger " me".
Another part of me knows this is a false thought, and something which is keeping me stuck.
Im aware of the paradox of this way of thinking but it keeps hooking me in, like an addiction or an unconscious process.
Yep, and this is part of the whole process. There will be clear seeing and then the clear seeing will become muddied. Everyone goes through this. I call it yo-yoing. Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up into a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This also is what seemingly happens in life. There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment.
What will be different?
I imagine that life will be the same; I'll keep raising my kids, my wife will be cranky at me for doing silly things, I will still be forgetful, selfish (hopefully less so?), lacking in emotional depth and feeling, but acceptance will make it easier to deal with the daily stresses. The change will be within, not outside.
Perception changes but that doesn’t always equate to desired changes in the character…but yes, in the story of the character, it seems the character is more accepting of itself!
What is missing?
I feel like I need to realise "something" that I cant realise. I feel like it it is right infront of "me" but I cant reach it. I feel like if I stop seeking it it will move further away and another part of me knows that the more I seek, the further I get from what I am seeking. It is confusing. It is like I am driven by unconscious processes. Whenever I feel most at peace I start to question things again and move into the stressed out seeker mode.
Everything you wrote are thoughts…and thoughts know nothing and cannot “realise” anything either. What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectations'. Everything, ie actual experience, is already known and doesn’t need thought to be known. Actual experience (AE) is raw experience that is labelled as sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought.
I also feel guilt about being pushy in this forum and towards you. I fee like it shows that i'm not ready to be free, like a kind of immaturity. I feel like guides have skipped me because they see something that I don't see, like there is a blind spot that is obvious to everyone but me that will keep me stuck forever.
Oh Sasha….that is really funny. I don’t mean to make light of what you are sharing here…but no guide would think that! We have all been where you are and desperately want the seeking to stop and to just BE with life. Just remember that this exploration is just the beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
One minute I feel like there is something special in me, that will help me achieve realisation quicker than others; like a kind of spiritual superiority. The next minute I realise that this a fantasy, and feel deflated and silly. And then I feel like i'm alone and abandoned by the world because there is something broken or unworthy in me, and people can see it.

I also feel like time is running out. There is fear that I am not able to realise no-self before I die
These are all thoughts that SEEM to be appearing to an illusory self…but there is no author of thoughts! Thoughts either point to actual experience (AE) or they point to thoughts about thought. We will be having a good look at the nature of thought soon. But first off we look at expectations, then we learn what actual experience (AE) is and how to LOOK.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:23 am

When you read my responses...be aware of what arises ie sadness, anger, resistance, fear and so on and share this with me please.
The words “I feel” are thought based as they are not actual body sensations, however, life is already lifing and does not need a resistant or non-resistant you to do so! Secondly, there would have to be a you who is resisting life, for this to be possible! How can something be resisted when it is already happening? The idea of resistance is appearing, but it is not happening to a someone. Ideas about emotions and ‘body tension’ will continue to appear. There has NEVER ever been a separate self and yet those ideas have always appeared, so why would that change? Perception is what changes and a knowing arises that these ‘things’ are not happening to a ‘me’. Nothing in life is personal!

Thoughts can have a stuckness if they are habitually associated with recurring sensations in the body. When this kind of association appears, it is a good time to start digging! Usually the sensation in the body is being accepted as proof that the associated thoughts and ideas are correct. The association can be disrupted by carefully examining the body sensation and the thoughts, and seeing clearly that they are unrelated phenomena that happen to arise at the same time. This takes patience, the first few times it may not happen quickly, though over time it will become easier and quicker.
This all sounds logical and reasonable!
Yes, seeking happens instead of LOOKING! Looking is not the same as seeking. Seeking is always towards something that is not present; or trying to get away from something that is present. Looking is investigating what is present; it's for no reason other than itself. It's done for its own sake. If you're expecting something from looking, then you're not looking, you're seeking what you expect looking will give you.
Wow, yes, that last line really resonated. I'm not sure if I have ever looked without seeking at the same time.
Yep, and this is part of the whole process. There will be clear seeing and then the clear seeing will become muddied. Everyone goes through this. I call it yo-yoing. Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up into a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This also is what seemingly happens in life. There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment
OK, good to know that this is part of the process!
Perception changes but that doesn’t always equate to desired changes in the character…but yes, in the story of the character, it seems the character is more accepting of itself!
Everything you wrote are thoughts…and thoughts know nothing and cannot “realise” anything either. What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectations'. Everything, ie actual experience, is already known and doesn’t need thought to be known. Actual experience (AE) is raw experience that is labelled as sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought.
This sounds a bit dry but im not concerned about that too much. Im ready to accept whatever arises from this process. I want the truth!
Oh Sasha….that is really funny. I don’t mean to make light of what you are sharing here…but no guide would think that! We have all been where you are and desperately want the seeking to stop and to just BE with life. Just remember that this exploration is just the beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
"I'm" looking forward to the beginning and the "ending" ;)
These are all thoughts that SEEM to be appearing to an illusory self…but there is no author of thoughts! Thoughts either point to actual experience (AE) or they point to thoughts about thought. We will be having a good look at the nature of thought soon. But first off we look at expectations, then we learn what actual experience (AE) is and how to LOOK.
All good, nothing of what you said gives any negative feelings. It is all quite logical and well explained!

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:58 am

Hi Sasha,

Okay...so let's begin! Please read the first two paragraphs very carefully, several times.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to LOOK.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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sashajay
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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:27 am

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
Okay, understood
I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I can hear the sounds of the fish tank bubbling away in the background...

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:38 am

Hello Sasha,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I can hear the sounds of the fish tank bubbling away in the background...
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is "fish tank bubbling"? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is "fish tank bubbling"?
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "fish tank bubbling" or is it thought that suggests it?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘fish tank bubbling’? Is it smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:15 am

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is "fish tank bubbling"? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is "fish tank bubbling"?
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "fish tank bubbling" or is it thought that suggests it?
It is thought only, retrieving a memory that is matched to the sound. It is obvious but there is some resistance to the answer. Not sure why!

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:36 am

Please answer the last question in my post.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby sashajay » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:39 am

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘fish tank bubbling’? Is it smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
It is thought. There is sound but the sound is just a sound, the thought turns the sound into “fish tank bubbling”

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Re: I need to know the truth of what is

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:42 pm

Hello Sasha,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is "fish tank bubbling"? In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is "fish tank bubbling"?
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it is "fish tank bubbling" or is it thought that suggests it?
It is thought only, retrieving a memory that is matched to the sound. It is obvious but there is some resistance to the answer. Not sure why!
Yes, it is only a thought that suggests the sound heard is a “fish tank bubbling”.

How does a thought go about retrieving a memory? Is a thought an entity, is it aware?
What is AE of ‘memory’?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘fish tank bubbling’? Is it smell, taste, sensation, sound, colour or thought?
It is thought. There is sound but the sound is just a sound, the thought turns the sound into “fish tank bubbling”
The actual experience of what is ‘heard’ is AE of sound. Thought points to raw experience ‘sound’ and further overlays the raw experience with stories about sound being a “fish tank bubbling”. Can you see this?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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