Frihet

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pia
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Frihet

Postby pia » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:29 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is a construction by the mind. In reality there is just awareness and no separation.

What are you looking for at LU?
To liberate myself from wrong views. To see things as they are clearer and in this way be able to be more alive. When I can see the wold in this way I can contribute to lessen suffering both for myself and for others.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To get help from someone more experienced. Having a counterpart will also discipline and motivate me to be more consistent in deepening my practise and pointing on the right track when meeting resistance and fear on the way.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been part of a Buddhist movement for 13 years meditating and going on reiterates working with the three lakshanas ( there is no inherent substance, everything is impermanent and there is suffering). I find the experiences in the body as a core practise and wish to deepen my practise looking at the I wit help of someone more experienced.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:36 am

Hello
My name is Adil and i am a guide here.
We can start the journey if you like..
What shall i call you ? Pia ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:53 am

Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

If all ok let's start..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:04 pm

deepening my practise and pointing on the right track when meeting resistance and fear on the way.
Can you talk about this expectation more ?
What do you think will happen ?
Why there should be a fear ?
Did you have any fear when you realized Santa is not real ?
I have been part of a Buddhist movement for 13 years meditating and going on reiterates working with the three lakshanas
That's ok but now we will start a journey of unlearn and focusing on direct experiences.
No more teachings :)

We will look and see.

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.

You can simply LOOK and see what is true and what is not.
Actual experience is the raw experience of direct experiences
colour
sound
smell
sensation
taste
and the simple knowing of thought at face value.
NOT the content of thought.

Can you tell me what comes when i tell you
YOU DONT EXIST! NEVER EXISTED NEVER WILL BE! THERE IS NO YOU!


Waiting to hear from you.

Sending much love.


Remember blue marked places are my questions for you..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

pia
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:11 pm

Hi Adil!
Happy to get a guide so quickly! Is it a point in itself that i should not know anything about you?
You can call me Pia.
I will try to post you everyday but some days I have no access to internet between 29th of July to 2nd of August. English is not my first language so you have to say if you do not understand what I mean.

Here comes my answers to the first questions;


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Re: Frihet
by adilerten » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:04 pm

deepening my practise and pointing on the right track when meeting resistance and fear on the way.
Can you talk about this expectation more ?
I find that there are many escape ways when something unpleasant is in the body and I avoid to feel it in my body and stay with it. The fear is created in my mind. It is going in a direction of the unknown in terms of habits When I do stay with things the fear is not there and I feel relieved.
What do you think will happen ?
My mind tells me that I will go to pieces or get stuck in a passive dark hole but it has never happened when I stay with the unpleasant.
Why there should be a fear ?
It is an illusion having this habit used to avoid bodily sensations since childhood.
Did you have any fear when you realized Santa is not real ?
No



I have been part of a Buddhist movement for 13 years meditating and going on reiterates working with the three lakshanas
That's ok but now we will start a journey of unlearn and focusing on direct experiences.
No more teachingsth :)

We will look and see.

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.

You can simply LOOK and see what is true and what is not.
Actual experience is the raw experience of direct experiences
colour
sound
smell
sensation
taste
and the simple knowing of thought at face value.
NOT the content of thought.
Can you tell me what comes when i tell you
YOU DONT EXIST! NEVER EXISTED NEVER WILL BE! THERE IS NO YOU!
Thoughts comes telling me that it will be boring and that I might get stuck loosing the possibility to make my own choices, for ex in food and in pleasures, that I will be invaded and low in energy. I feel a bit heavy in my stomach. At the same time I know that it has the taste of openness and freedom with creativity and greater contact with myself and others So the response is very ambivalent wanting to go there and hook of “me” and not wanting to go there in the land of letting go of my illusions. But since I have started this process and feel curious and grateful of the opportunity and support I hope to be able to loosen this “me” which is my wish but I am hesitating.

So with some worry of having started this process I send you my first response,
Love
Pia

Waiting to hear from you.

Sending much love.

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:15 pm

Hi Adil!
Happy to get a guide so quickly!
Hi Pia.
It is life's work sometimes people wait for months. That's good if you are happy :)

Is it a point in itself that i should not know anything about you?
No need for now Pia. Only focus on the answers to the pointers i'll give to you.
That will be enough for your realization.

will try to post you everyday but some days I have no access to internet between 29th of July to 2nd of August. English is not my first language so you have to say if you do not understand what I mean.
That's ok. I understand thanks for letting me know.
My mind tells me that I will go to pieces or get stuck in a passive dark hole but it has never happened when I stay with the unpleasant.
These are thought made assumptions totally not right.
Thoughts comes telling me that it will be boring and that I might get stuck loosing the possibility to make my own choices, for ex in food and in pleasures, that I will be invaded and low in energy. I feel a bit heavy in my stomach. At the same time I know that it has the taste of openness and freedom with creativity and greater contact with myself and others So the response is very ambivalent wanting to go there and hook of “me” and not wanting to go there in the land of letting go of my illusions. But since I have started this process and feel curious and grateful of the opportunity and support I hope to be able to loosen this “me” which is my wish but I am hesitating.
Enlightenment is nothing more than seeing that self is an illusion. No angels, no magic wand erasing all your troubles, no people around you seeing a halo around your head and respecting you..
It is so simple. The thing changes nothing but a perceivement.
Experience will always be here.
When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, you will laugh.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1270
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:17 pm

Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function better dear :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:22 pm

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.

You can simply LOOK and see what is true and what is not.

Actual experience is the raw experience of direct experiences ,

Color
Sound
Smell
Sensation
Taste

and the simple knowing of thought at face value.

NOT the content of thought.

IF you ask why content of the thought has not an actual experience, i will ask: "Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish ?"


So you will be focusing on your actual experiences while giving your answers.

So Pia.

Can you tell me where the finger goes when you say "i" "me" "self" "pia" ?
Chest ?
Head ?

Then can you ACTUALLY look and see what is REALLY there ?
Is it a me ? A self ? Or a chest ? Or a head ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

pia
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:05 pm

Hi Adil!
Thanks for your reply. Ok I try to put my thoughts away from the answers;

IF you ask why content of the thought has not an actual experience, i will ask: "Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish ?
No i cant.
So you will be focusing on your actual experiences while giving your answers.

So Pia.

Can you tell me where the finger goes when you say "i" "me" "self" "pia" ?
Chest ?
Head ?
The finger points in the middle of my chest
Then can you ACTUALLY look and see what is REALLY there ?
Is it a me ? A self ? Or a chest ? Or a head ?
It is a chest- a part of the body that is alive and contains energy. Visually the body has boundaries but not with closed eyes.There are felt senses of contractions at the moment in the chest a upper stomach after a recent talk with my son on the phone. But there is no me there and no self but only the felt sense from finger contact with the bone from chest
Love
Pia

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adilerten
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Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:24 am

Hi Adil!
Thanks for your reply. Ok I try to put my thoughts away from the answers;

IF you ask why content of the thought has not an actual experience, i will ask: "Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish ?
No i cant.
So you will be focusing on your actual experiences while giving your answers.

So Pia.

Can you tell me where the finger goes when you say "i" "me" "self" "pia" ?
Chest ?
Head ?
The finger points in the middle of my chest
Then can you ACTUALLY look and see what is REALLY there ?
Is it a me ? A self ? Or a chest ? Or a head ?
It is a chest- a part of the body that is alive and contains energy. Visually the body has boundaries but not with closed eyes.There are felt senses of contractions at the moment in the chest a upper stomach after a recent talk with my son on the phone. But there is no me there and no self but only the felt sense from finger contact with the bone from chest
Love
Pia



Brilliant looking. Thank you.
Sure there is only a chest there and there is no me there. Even if we cut open we wont be finding anything like that.
If we put this better "it is just a sensation when finger is pressed, and when it is seen it is color".

As you see Actually there is no "me" there.. Thought says "it feels like i am here".
But we will always be looking for certainty. In actual experience everything is certain.

Let's make more exercises to focus the mind (thought) on the actual experiences (what is REALLY here and now)

Sending Love.

(Use can use the preview button to check before sending Pia.)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:26 am

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories like i did above (which are all actual experience) and write to me back some examples that you did.

This will help you see what things really are!

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

pia
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:53 pm

Hi again Adil!
I find it very stimulating with this kind of looking. Thank you for guiding in this way. I am off work so the examples are coloured by holiday and the summer season.
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories like i did above (which are all actual experience) and write to me back some examples that you did.
Seeing flowers=just contrasts, colours and forms,
Thoughts of seeing the flowers= thought
Smelling the flower=just the smell
Thought about the smell=just a thought.( Here I have to stop the thoughts of analysing the smell as being different etc)
Grass under feet= just sensations
Thought about the pleasant feeling of standing on grass= simply a thought
Noise of a boat and a cicada = just sounds
Thought of the sounds=just thoughts
Sensations of water= just sensations
Thought about being in water= just a thought
Seeing water and waves= simply colours and movements/changing forms
Wind on skin=just sensation
Thought about wind on skin (that it is pleasant)= just a thought
Hair in face=just sensations
Thought of how that too is pleasant= simply thought
Eating chocolate hearing the crunch=just a sound
Feeling chocolate in mouth=just taste
Drinking coffee watching the surfaces it=just colours/texture
Coffee in mouth=just taste
Thoughts about the taste of coffee=just thoughts
Lips in contact wit the cup=just sensations
Thinking what to do next=just a thought
Warmth from the sun=sensations
Itching from mosquito=just sensation
Pain in back=just sensation

Reflection; this makes the experience -for example looking -broader and richer with a wider horizon. When the me is hooked off I do not have to be sad when things end they are just there or not there in the moment. Almost every experience get thoughts as a reaction to evaluate it wether it is pleasant or not. How tiring and limiting the experience I it self!
I will keep doing this but send you you the above examples for now.
Love,
Pia

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi again Adil!
I find it very stimulating with this kind of looking. Thank you for guiding in this way. I am off work so the examples are coloured by holiday and the summer season.
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories like i did above (which are all actual experience) and write to me back some examples that you did.
Seeing flowers=just contrasts, colours and forms,
Thoughts of seeing the flowers= thought
Smelling the flower=just the smell
Thought about the smell=just a thought.( Here I have to stop the thoughts of analysing the smell as being different etc)
Grass under feet= just sensations
Thought about the pleasant feeling of standing on grass= simply a thought
Noise of a boat and a cicada = just sounds
Thought of the sounds=just thoughts
Sensations of water= just sensations
Thought about being in water= just a thought
Seeing water and waves= simply colours and movements/changing forms
Wind on skin=just sensation
Thought about wind on skin (that it is pleasant)= just a thought
Hair in face=just sensations
Thought of how that too is pleasant= simply thought
Eating chocolate hearing the crunch=just a sound
Feeling chocolate in mouth=just taste
Drinking coffee watching the surfaces it=just colours/texture
Coffee in mouth=just taste
Thoughts about the taste of coffee=just thoughts
Lips in contact wit the cup=just sensations
Thinking what to do next=just a thought
Warmth from the sun=sensations
Itching from mosquito=just sensation
Pain in back=just sensation

Reflection; this makes the experience -for example looking -broader and richer with a wider horizon. When the me is hooked off I do not have to be sad when things end they are just there or not there in the moment. Almost every experience get thoughts as a reaction to evaluate it wether it is pleasant or not. How tiring and limiting the experience I it self!
I will keep doing this but send you you the above examples for now.
Love,
Pia
Very good looking Pia..
Keep on focusing to the direct experiences..

You see how automatic labeling is made ?
Let's look closer to this labeling process shall we ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:47 pm

This is a wonderful article and pointer from Ilona,
Please read this article and make the exercise there for me and please tell me what comes..

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

Thank you

Waiting to here from you
Sending love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

pia
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Re: Frihet

Postby pia » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:09 pm

Hi Adil!
Thank you for sending me this exercises.

Please read this article and make the exercise there for me and please tell me what comes.
i did the writing and found that when using I and me; i get caught in thoughts some that I label worrying and planning. I get a narrow focus with contraction in upper stomach and more thoughts show up. The sensations also quickly jump to the next one.
When writing excluding I and me: there is more room and expansiveness. The contents of thoughts are more reflective and connected to the experience. The body briefs and there are less thoughts . The sensations in body seem richer and more vivid.The body relaxes and seem softer.
It is amazing how this shift in writing down experiences can make such a difference!
From tomorrow after lunch I will be away on a course until Sunday afternoon. I might be able to text you from my phone early mornings or at night.
Maybe you can give me something to work on not needing a lot of writing on internet during this coming week?
Or shall I continue with the latest two exercises that I found eye opening? Noting simply sensations and writing with and without I an d me?
Love,
Pia


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