Fifty and counting.

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Shaw
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Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:13 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the 'self' we know is a narrative we have created. It is like a character in a film. If we step back sometimes we can witness this character behaving in a certain way and reacting to thoughts and emotions.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have heard that you offer a guide to help one realise the illusion that we are living in. I have undergone an increase in the yearning for "enlightment", possibly due to it being my 50th year and the feeling of mortality growing stronger. I have also stopped drinking for 15 months now. I was a heavy drinker and suffer anxiety. I have been to India to see Mooji for 3 weeks. I watch Rupert Spira on YouTube a lot and Francis Lucille and have been on silent retreats and a couple of talks by Paul Hedderman in Dublin. I am sincere in my search, but may be a tad impatient and get frustrated with the lack of "presence" felt.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To know what to look for. To be shown the error of my ways. Perhaps, to streamline my practices. To show me what to do, really. To bear witness to the fact that the search is worth it. To help me lose my ego.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Over thirty years ago I began to practice TM. I dabbled in it for a few tears, but it frustrated me. I stopped. I drank heavily all of my adult life. I have always suffered from chronic anxiety and have undergone psychiatric treatment twice. Once for over a year in my early thirties and for the past 6 years. I was introduced to Mooji after practicing mindfulness for a few years on and off, unsuccessfully. I liked Mooji and travelled to India to see him in Satsang for 3cof his 4 weeks in Rishikesh. It was OK, but the earth didn't move. Prior to this I saw Paul Hedderman twice, in Dublin. I am contemplating going on a retreat by Rupert Spira, whose Videos I watch now.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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forgetmenot
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:42 am

Hi Shaw,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Thank you for mentioning that you may become impatient and frustrated. I would like to mention that I may bring out the zen stick if you are not actually LOOKING diligently. I can only point...it is you who must do the LOOKING. If my questions are not clear, to ask for clarification is fine...however, LOOKING must take place for you to be able to answer said questions.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Shaw
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:11 pm

Hi Kay, thank you for your assistance. I have read the items that you requested I read.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:11 am

Hi Shaw,

What can I call you?

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Shaw
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:31 am

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?





How will life change? Things will become easier. I find it hard to differentiate your questions , as I find them all inextricably linked. But yes, life will become easier due to me realising that the self that I know is an illusion which I have constructed.
How will you change? The "you" being the "I" reading this. I will be subjected to a consumption by the reality that I am that that knows that I am one with all. I will become aware that my thoughts and feelings are not really who or what I am.
What will be different? Perception will be different , I think. I will abide in a new or different reality.
What is missing? Realisation. The intellectual knowledge that another reality exists for me, but I feel totally blocked off from experiencing it .

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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:11 am

Hello Shaw,

Can you please learn how to use the quote function. You do not need to put your answers in blue text. I use blue text for questions I want you to answer, but I do want you to highlight each question you are answering with the quote function...just as I am doing below.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

The purpose of the questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and can even blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. When desired outcomes to expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration can arise. Also note that these emotions will arise during our exploration as well. When they do, please let me know so that we can look at them together.
How will life change?
Things will become easier. I find it hard to differentiate your questions , as I find them all inextricably linked. But yes, life will become easier due to me realising that the self that I know is an illusion which I have constructed.
Life is simply lifing and is not happening to anyone or anything. The ‘me’ you are referring to is the illusion. How can an illusion be constructed by another illusion? That make for a you and another illusion and life = 3. There is no separation in any shape or form.
How will you change?
The "you" being the "I" reading this. I will be subjected to a consumption by the reality that I am that that knows that I am one with all. I will become aware that my thoughts and feelings are not really who or what I am.
They are not your thoughts and feelings. First, there would have to be a you who is thinking and feeling…and that points to separation. Second I have no idea what you mean when you say “I will be subjected to a consumption by the reality that I am that knows that I am one with all”! Sounds like you are expecting to be swallowed up by something to become one with it. How does that look and feel exactly?
What will be different?
Perception will be different , I think. I will abide in a new or different reality.
Hmmm. There has never EVER been a separate self…and reality is as it has always been. Perception changes on what you think reality is…but reality stays the same. It never changes.
What is missing?
Realisation. The intellectual knowledge that another reality exists for me, but I feel totally blocked off from experiencing it .
There is no ‘you’ blocking off anything. Thoughts appear that veil the actuality of what IS…but what IS, is always here and known and always has been. It is only thoughts that seem to obscure the simplicity of it all.

So, let’s say you have had the realisation that there is no separate self. How would that be experienced exactly? How would that look and feel exactly?



Just so that you are aware of what is required of you, for your own benefit, I thought I would post the following as it gives an idea of what commitment you need to make to yourself.

To see This, first, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice.

Second, you must be open with a willingness to set aside your current beliefs about how things are and engage in rigorous inquiry. No-one can give this to you.

Your beliefs might rush in saying, “Yeah, but…”, “OK, but what about…?”, “I was taught that…”, “My other teacher or the book I read said…” All this must be pushed aside and sometimes quite aggressively.

Third, you must engage in active listening. Listen carefully to the words your guide is using. Be sure you are clear on the context within which the words are being used. Sometimes, when you review what was asked or said, you realize that what you thought you heard versus what was actually said are two different things.

Fourth, this ties in with number 2… practical application… You can’t just sit and ponder, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action. Do the work.

Fifth, be 100% honest with your guide and with yourself. You can’t cheat your way through this. Wherever you are in your understanding or lack thereof is fine, but your guide can’t help you if you are withholding. Withholding is unfair both to the guide and yourself.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Shaw
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:51 pm

Hi Kay, I am doing a weekend course . Please excuse my delay in responding.

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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:19 am

Hey Shaw....thank you for letting me know

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:13 pm

So, let’s say you have had the realisation that there is no separate self. How would that be experienced exactly? How would that look and feel exactly?
Strange. I submitted a reply last night.

Ok. In it I apologised for not responding . I have a virus which has gone into my chest and have had a vertebrae damaged in my upper back during a rib manipulation. I also expressed a thought that this may be a manifestation of self sabotage as performance anxiety sets in due to the pressure of your probing. You may respond that the "me" feeling the pressure is just an illusion. Sometimes I get frustrated with that statement, as it is that illusion that I am trying to eliminate. I know it's an illusion . That is part of my problem. To try to answer your question, I will also refer to one of my answers earlier. You stated that you didn't know what I was talking about , when I mentioned "consumption" ,yet accurately questioned , did I mean being "swallowed" by something? Ironically enough, this is what I experience. That which I experience as I does seem to get swallowed up. "i" disappear temporarily only to reappear. This is how it both looks and feels to me. I have only experienced this feeling of nothingness a few times . May I ask you a question , Kay? Would you put yourself in the Tony Parson's side or the RUpert Spira/ Francis Lucille side of trying to explain all of this . Sorry to be crude, but Tony Parsons frustrates me.

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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:28 am

Hello Shaw,

Sorry to hear about your health issues and that you are feeling much better.
I also expressed a thought that this may be a manifestation of self sabotage as performance anxiety sets in due to the pressure of your probing. You may respond that the "me" feeling the pressure is just an illusion. Sometimes I get frustrated with that statement, as it is that illusion that I am trying to eliminate.
Frustration is good…because it is frustration that motivates you to do this work and it is frustration that will motivate you to LOOK instead of to think. We have only just started this exploration, and so far all I have asked you about is your expectations.
I knowit's an illusion . That is part of my problem. To try to answer your question, I will also refer to one of my answers earlier.
Do you KNOW it’s an illusion or you think you know it’s an illusion? Semantics you may say. But if you actually KNEW that it was an illusion, you wouldn’t be here at LU, no matter how many times the illusory self seemingly appear...you would still know that it was an illlusion!
You stated that you didn't know what I was talking about , when I mentioned "consumption" ,yet accurately questioned , did I mean being "swallowed" by something? Ironically enough, this is what I experience. That which I experience as I does seem to get swallowed up. "i" disappear temporarily only to reappear.
Yes, that is what all people experience and come here to LU to see through. But it does take patience. There is no you in control of when clear seeing happens, however you do need to have patience to participate in this exploration. It is the pointing and your LOOKING that brings about the clear seeing.
This is how it both looks and feels to me. I have only experienced this feeling of nothingness a few times .
Having clarity and realising no self has nothing to do with having a permanent change in experience. It has nothing to do with “feeling nothingness’ 24/7, or having no thoughts appear, or having no emotions such as frustration appear, or feeling bliss 24/7 and so on. Realising no self is a simple recognition that when you LOOK there is an absence of what is called ‘me/I/Shaw’. As I said, it is a simple recognition and cannot be UNSEEN. There are period, after seeing, that I refer to as yo-yoing, as there seems to be re-identification with a separate self and then clarity again. This happens to everybody. You can’t expect 50 or so years of identifying with a self to change overnight. This exploration is a beginning and not an ending. There will still be other beliefs that will have to be seen through after the realisation, but here at LU we point to help you to see through a major/core belief of there being a separate self.
May I ask you a question , Kay? Would you put yourself in the Tony Parson's side or the RUpert Spira/ Francis Lucille side of trying to explain all of this . Sorry to be crude, but Tony Parsons frustrates me.
I have never listened to or read anything of Tony Parson’s…so don’t have a clue about him. I do, however, resonate with Rupert Spira and have never heard of Francis Lucille.

I don’t have a magic wand Shaw. This exploration is going to push your buttons and many emotions are going to appear….frustration, confusion, anger, resentment, resistance to name a few. You have to be prepared for that….this isn’t some lovely merry go round ride. It is a roller coaster trip. So you either buckle up and are ready for the ride…and if not…then it’s best not to continue. I will help you with the emotions that appear…if you are let me know when they are appearing. As I said…my job is to point, you however have to do the work of LOOKING and I will show you how to LOOK. But I will say this to finish this off….I am not here to debate or discuss anything. You either want to be clear and if not..then this exploration stops.

So, are you actually ready and willing to question all currently held beliefs about 'self'? Are you ready and willing to LOOK, no matter how many times I say something or point to the same thing...which by the way is for your benefit and not because I get some sort of perverse pleasure out of frustrating or torturing you! By reading your responses to my questions, I can ascertain whether any actual LOOKING has taken place or not. Sometimes what is being pointed at is hard to see....I am aware of that, and sometimes the reliance on memory, and what is thought to be already known is used...and I will pull you up on those. So do you want to continue or not?

Said and sent with love,
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Shaw
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:19 pm

So do you want to continue or not?
Yes, Kay. Thankyou. I would like to continue.

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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:04 am

Hi Shaw,

Lovely to hear from you. You may need to practice the highlighting and quote function. You have to highlight the text that you want to put within the quote function.Before you press 'submit', I would suggest you click on 'preview' so that you can see if what you have done is correct and is an opportunity to rectify any errors. Once you have checked, then hit the submit button.

Okay, so we looked at expectations. We will see what other expectations appear as we move through this exploration.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Sending love,
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Shaw
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:23 am

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
Hi Kay. My apologies, I have been working away from home for the past week and wanted to do the practice at home.
I just want to point out that I find it very hard to shut up the mind doing this. I found some very infantile emotions and thoughts arising. I am even a bit unsure or insecure as to whether I "produced a result". To get to point, Kay, in the few moments of quiet, on the surface there was the traffic, but below this there was a a low volume but high pitched tone.

Just another question, if you don't mind, Kay, do you want/need to know all the "stuff" that is obstructing my search or is that illusory and therefore not necessary? (sincere question). I ask this because I don't want to overload with b/s , but I want to be vulnerable, honest and brave, but maybe am unsure as to what honesty means in this context. Is it ONLY "honesty" while actually looking that you mean?

Hope you're doing well. Thanks for your time, Kay.

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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:44 am

Hello Shaw,
My apologies, I have been working away from home for the past week and wanted to do the practice at home.
I would really appreciate it, if in future, you would let me know if you are unable to post within a day or two please. I no longer chase people if they don’t respond to their thread, and move on and take on other people who are waiting for a guide. The forum has been extremely busy and there were many waiting for a guide.

I posted “housekeeping guidelines” when I picked up your thread, and the first guideline is:-

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

I will also give you the same courtesy if I am unable to respond to your thread within a day or two. Okay…moving on.
Just another question, if you don't mind, Kay, do you want/need to know all the "stuff" that is obstructing my search or is that illusory and therefore not necessary? (sincere question). I ask this because I don't want to overload with b/s , but I want to be vulnerable, honest and brave, but maybe am unsure as to what honesty means in this context. Is it ONLY "honesty" while actually looking that you mean?
Okay, it might be helpful for me to know what is going on for you, that way we can LOOK at them together and see the truth of what IS, as opposed to thought stories. Please keep it succinct though :)
I just want to point out that I find it very hard to shut up the mind doing this. I found some very infantile emotions and thoughts arising. I am even a bit unsure or insecure as to whether I "produced a result". To get to point, Kay, in the few moments of quiet, on the surface there was the traffic, but below this there was a a low volume but high pitched tone.
Okay…so let’s do the following exercise instead. This form of guiding means that you have to LOOK at what is being pointed at…and with LOOKING you will have to be able to go under the din of thought (ie mind), ignore it or quieten it. This is important.

I would like you to do the following exercise for the next several days, several times per day please. This exercise can be done anywhere, at any time and as many times as you like. If thoughts start to intrude – just notice this and then bring your attention back to what you are paying attention to.

This exercise is great to do when the mind is very busy, or even when emotions become overwhelming as it has a grounding affect. Just NOTICE thoughts and mental images as they appear, but let them pass on by. Observe thoughts as if you are observing a movie or observing clouds passing in the sky.

1. Slowly take in 3 deep breaths. Breathe in deeply through the nose, as if you are breathing into the tips of your toes, and then slowly breathe it out through the mouth.

Then place your attention on your feet and slowly wriggle and scrunch the toes - really feel and notice the sensation as you wriggle and scrunch.

2. Place your feet flat on the floor and notice for a few moments how solid the floor is under your feet and how that feels. Notice the sensations at the bottom of the feet.

Then notice how your backside feels in the chair you are sitting on. Notice how the chair is supporting your body and really pay attention to the sensation of the backside on the chair and your back against the chair. Take your time and really notice this. Remember just NOTICE any labels/thoughts or mental images that appear and let them pass on by.

Notice where your hands are placed and really notice the sensation of them wherever they are lying.

3. Take in a couple more deep breaths and start to pay attention to what is in the room. Very very slowly start to look around the room, noting the colour of the walls, the furniture, the floor. Then choose one object.

Really look at the object carefully noting its shape and colour, and just notice the labels/thoughts appearing about the object and let them pass on by. Bring your attention back to the object and simply notice the colour/shape and texture before moving onto the next object.

Do this with another 4 objects.

4. Listen carefully to what sounds you hear, both inside and outside of the room, and pay close attention to each sound for a few moments. Just notice the labels/thoughts appearing about the sound and let them pass on by like clouds in the sky and bring your attention back to the sounds.

5. Notice if there are any smells and taste - if any, do the same with them.

6. Scan the body and notice if there are any sensations happening anywhere and pay close attention to them for a while. Again just notice labels/thoughts and then bring your attention back to the sensations.

7. When you have done this, take in a couple more deep breaths and once again feel the firmness of the floor underneath your feet and your bum on the chair.

By doing this, it takes your focus off thoughts and onto actual experience...with the noticing of thought.
Let me know how you go.[/color

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Shaw
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Re: Fifty and counting.

Postby Shaw » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:46 pm

I would like you to do the following exercise for the next several days,
Thank you , Kay. So....I will get back to you after "several days"?

Shaw.


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