Feeling life intentfully

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Phil
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:28 pm

Hello Clare,


It is something I told myself.
It was a thought trying to make sense of the direct experience of dizziness.
From these quotes I see we are making progress. You are doing very good.
Yes it is becoming clearer to me, not totally - I will watch more for this so I do see it more clearly.
This was about you trusting your rational mind that being stuck in thought. You say it is clearer but not totally. Can you be more specific? What makes it clearer? And what makes it not totally clear? You will watch more for what exactly? I am trying to make you express yourself as concrete and specific as possible. Being vague leaves wiggle room.
Yes it makes sense - doing it in this way makes it clear that labelling is something that I do all the time.
it does show me that I get lost and involved in thoughts and labelling all the time. All the time.
Very good!! Thank you for all your effort and hard work Clare.
I am almost a little bit lost as to what you are wanting in terms of a description of my experience.
What I am trying to do, is have you report on your actual experience (raw sensory information, thoughts and emotions = the actual reality) and not on your thoughts about your experience (labelled information = your ideal reality, ideal as in made of ideas, thoughts).

In the labelling exercise, you only have actual experience (smell, color, taste, ...). When you report back, make sure that you report back from actual experience and not from reasoning and thought. We want to lift the veil to see what it is behind it. Your thoughts about reality are the veil hiding the actual experience. Does that make sense?

Love,

Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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clarinet
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby clarinet » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:31 pm

Hi Phil
From these quotes I see we are making progress. You are doing very good.
Thank-you, it is nice to be told - then my mind grabs a hold of it and thinks 'Oh great I'm getting somewhere'
This was about you trusting your rational mind that being stuck in thought.
You say it is clearer but not totally.
Can you be more specific?
It's clear to me and then I get involved in daily life again and I lose that perspective and I have
to remember and recognise how stuck in thought I am again.
What makes it clearer?
The perspective being fresh in my mind.
And what makes it not totally clear?
Getting involved in daily life and switching focus to what I need to do, essentially forgetting temporarily...
You will watch more for what exactly?
I'll watch more during daily life for how much I trust my rational mind and am stuck in thoughts.


In the labelling exercise, you only have actual experience (smell, color, taste, ...).
When you report back, make sure that you report back from actual experience and not from reasoning and thought.
We want to lift the veil to see what it is behind it.
Your thoughts about reality are the veil hiding the actual experience. Does that make sense?
Yes this makes sense, I understand that my thoughts about what is real is what is keeping my actual experience veiled.

Love,
Clare

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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:28 pm

Hello Clare,
It's clear to me and then I get involved in daily life again and I lose that perspective and I have
to remember and recognise how stuck in thought I am again.
Do you mean that it is clear when you look, but then you get caught up in daily life and your old behaviour kicks in? (If not, let me know what you did mean) If that is what you mean, then I would say that that is to be expected. These are automated responses that have been running like programms on your system for a very long time. Would it be possible for you to 'remember' and make it clear, every time you catch yourself getting too involved or resisting what's going on? Just keep noticing and keep coming back to what you have discovered?

You say it is clear to you when
The perspective being fresh in my mind.
Can you make it fresh in your mind every time you forget?

You say
Getting involved in daily life and switching focus to what I need to do, essentially forgetting temporarily...
makes it not totally clear.

Is it your expectation that because now you realize that you live in your world of thoughts rather than the real world, that you will always act upon it? That all old habits have gone? Check it and if it is, what is that expectation based on? Experience or is it based in thought? Why not accept that you are going to be lured back into your hamster wheel by your thoughts? And be grateful that you are begining to know better, and can now catch yourself doing it, and have an alternative?
I'll watch more during daily life for how much I trust my rational mind and am stuck in thoughts.
Being aware as much as possible is good exercise, like training a muscle. Doubt your every thought and check in direct experience if that thought has any basis in reality. You will get caught up in stories, and that's okay. Just be happy whenever you catch yourself doing it.
Yes this makes sense, I understand that my thoughts about what is real is what is keeping my actual experience veiled.
Yes! There is a big difference between 'knowing' and seeing. Here is on more example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!
Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your mother and ask.... or you could simply open the curtains and have a look.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Keep this in mind not only during our sessions but as much as you possibly can.

Love,

Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:43 pm

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile. Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

Give it some time. Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

While doing the second part of the exercise try to pin point:

- where does the seer stop and the seeing begin?
- where does the seeing stop and the seen begin?

Can you find any borders in your direct experience?

Love,

Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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clarinet
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby clarinet » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:30 am

Hi Phil
Would it be possible for you to 'remember' and make it clear, every time you catch yourself getting too involved
or resisting what's going on?
Yes it is possible to remember, not necessarily to stop the resistance though and then I feel super disappointed with myself
but I don't very often remember and continue to resist.
Just keep noticing and keep coming back to what you have discovered?
Ok
Can you make it fresh in your mind every time you forget?
Yes, depending on how much time there is between the next everyday interaction.
Is it your expectation that because now you realize that you live in your world of thoughts rather than the real world,
that you will always act upon it?
Yes it was and now I can shift that expectation.
That all old habits have gone? Check it and if it is, what is that expectation based on?
The experience is based on an expectation/thought of learning from experience and not being too stupid.
Experience or is it based in thought?
Just a thought.
Why not accept that you are going to be lured back into your hamster wheel by your thoughts?
Ok I will accept the lure of the hamster wheel!
And be grateful that you are begining to know better, and can now catch yourself doing it, and have an alternative?
Yes and be grateful that I am seeing true when I do.

While doing the second part of the exercise try to pin point:
- where does the seer stop and the seeing begin?
- where does the seeing stop and the seen begin?
There is no beginning - there is only labeling / langage that differentiates and thoughts that identify the difference but there isn't a difference.
Can you find any borders in your direct experience?
There are no borders just the experience of seeing.

Love,
Clare

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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:03 pm

Dear Clare,

Yes it is possible to remember, not necessarily to stop the resistance though and then I feel super disappointed with myself but I don't very often remember and continue to resist.
Why so hard on yourself? Can you see this is what causes suffering? Let's focus on what is happening: you seeing the difference between a fictional world made of mindstuff and the actual world that you can perceive only in the present moment, the raw, unlabelled intel from your outer world (the five senses) and your inner world (thoughts and emotions).

Can you be happy about that?
Yes, depending on how much time there is between the next everyday interaction.
Try to catch yourself as often as you can, believing what you think. And then question it. Suffering is the product of someone thinking she knows what's going on. This creates a story of how it is and how it should be. When you can go back to realizing you do not know who you are and what's going on, the suffering will get less and make way for curiosity.
Yes it was and now I can shift that expectation.
Expectations are also a source of suffering. When we don't know who we are and we don't know what's going on, we are not bothered by expectations. It's the me and the story of me that create these expectations of how things are and how they should be.
The experience is based on an expectation/thought of learning from experience (...)
So it's all based on second hand information: thought/expectations and experience which is memory. Non of these are direct experience of reality but thoughts about reality. And we don't do second hand information. Only first hand information: that which you can check in the present moment, using the 5 senses.
(...) and not being too stupid.
That's a judgement, we also don't do judgements. They're just thoughts, and not very helpful.
Ok I will accept the lure of the hamster wheel!
I like that! Being gentle with yourself is very important. You can't learn if you don't make mistakes, over and over again. The moment you catch yourself, don't be mad. Instead be glad you did. It means you are making progress. By not accepting where you are, you can not make progress. You will just get frustrated.
There is no beginning - there is only labeling / langage that differentiates and thoughts that identify the difference but there isn't a difference.
Isn't that bizar? That we divise experience in our thoughts in seer - seeing - and seen, but when we go and look for the parts and their borders, we can not find them? Why do you think this is? Sit with the question, don't try to answer it with your rational mind. Just sit with it and tell me what comes up.

Love,

Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:05 pm

Clare,


Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. If not, here's an image of an apple from the Internet. http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... /fruit.gif

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known. What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something...because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation. (the 5 senses)

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience. This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched) Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Looking forward to your comments,

Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby clarinet » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:38 pm

Hi Phil
Let's focus on what is happening: you seeing the difference between a fictional world made of mindstuff and
the actual world that you can perceive only in the present moment, the raw, unlabelled intel from your outer
world (the five senses) and your inner world (thoughts and emotions).

Can you be happy about that?
Yes that needs to be my focus - that I am shifting to seeing more what is in the present moment via actual
experience. Freely switching to this is something to feel happy about.

Isn't that bizar? That we divise experience in our thoughts in seer - seeing - and seen, but when we go and
look for the parts and their borders, we can not find them? Why do you think this is? Sit with the question,
don't try to answer it with your rational mind. Just sit with it and tell me what comes up.
They don't exist. Direct experience is hard to put into words and putting it into words actually takes you to
another experience, the experience of trying to articulate a previous direct experience.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Apple can be found in actual experience through sensation - holding apple.
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience. This is what is meant
by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched) Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
No - how can you know an apple? Like you say you know things about an apple but not the apple.

Love,
Clare

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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:39 am

Hello Clare,

Yes that needs to be my focus - that I am shifting to seeing more what is in the present moment via actual
experience. Freely switching to this is something to feel happy about.
Totally on the same page.
They don't exist. Direct experience is hard to put into words and putting it into words actually takes you to
another experience, the experience of trying to articulate a previous direct experience.
Very good Clare. There are no borders between subject - the activity of seeing/feeling/hearing/smelling/tasting - object.

It is interesting to play around with this in actual experience. You can take any of the five senses. Say you listening to a piece of music. Where do you hear it? In your head? In your ear? Coming out of the speaker? In the room? Can you localize it? Where does the listener end and the listening being?
Apple can be found in actual experience through sensation - holding apple.
But what if, upon biting in it, you discover it is a very convicing replica of an apple made of plastic? The shape and color can point to it being an apple, but appearances can be deceiving. It's like the painting by René Margritte: this is not a pipe, it is a painting representing pipe. But in actuality, it's just paint on canvas, but your brain makes it into a pipe. And reading the texte underneath saying this is not a pipe is confusing yet accurate when you think about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treac ... tePipe.jpg

So again: can an apple be found in direct experience through sensation? Or is it the shape, color, smell,taste and touch that are found in direct experience? And is it the brain that concludes there must be an apple in front of you?

This exercise is again showing you how fast you conclude something is direct experience while it is not.

Tell me what you think, feel.

Love Phil
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:42 am

Clare,


I want you to get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Phil
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby clarinet » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:34 pm

Hi Phil,
It is interesting to play around with this in actual experience. You can take any of the five senses. Say you listening to a piece of music. Where do you hear it? In your head? In your ear? Coming out of the speaker? In the room? Can you localize it? Where does the listener end and the listening being?
No it's not really possible to localise it - it is not any of those places but somehow it is. Perhaps it is actual experience rather than a sound that is listened to by a listener listening.

So again: can an apple be found in direct experience through sensation? Or is it the shape, color, smell,taste and touch that are found in direct experience? And is it the brain that concludes there must be an apple in front of you?
Yes it is all/ a combination of those experiences found only in direct experience. The brain can be tricked into thinking it is an apple if it was an extremely good replica whereas direct experience would not be fooled.

I notice, I do have resistance to these sentences, when I read it the first time - I react with a sigh and a thought that this is just all super pedantic. Reading it the second and subsequent times I feel no annoyance just more understanding of what is being said / shown.

The painting being in french made it a bit less confusing for my brain as even though I understand some french including what was written - I find that I am translating it rather than understanding it straight out. Like when playing a game as a teen with exchange students - you had to say to someone of the opposite gender 'I love you' - the ones who could do it easily without issue were the ones where english was not their mother tongue, whereas us english speakers struggled.

I want you to get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes.
Let me know how you go and what you notice.
I mainly thought about myself - 15 versus 5... most of it was obsessing about thinking about myself and me. The 5 thoughts not about me were noises I heard, the fire crackling, traffic outside and sudden humming. I was amazed I obsessed so long about reporting back to you on my thoughts.

Love,
Clare

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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:06 pm

Hello Clare,

No it's not really possible to localise it - it is not any of those places but somehow it is. Perhaps it is actual experience rather than a sound that is listened to by a listener listening.
Everything we focus on is actual experience, which is either sensory information coming from the senses or thoughts and emotions, perceived in the present moment. See how when you say
Perhaps it is actual experience
you are generalizing and creating a vague concept that has no counterpart in actual experience?
rather than a sound that is listened to by a listener listening
In the case of listening to music, it is sound. But who hears it? Can you find this listener? Are you listening or is listening happening?
I notice, I do have resistance to these sentences, when I read it the first time - I react with a sigh and a thought that this is just all super pedantic. Reading it the second and subsequent times I feel no annoyance just more understanding of what is being said / shown.
Interesting observation. Whenever I feel resistance when trying to understand something, I know I am doing something important. It is a sign for me to be even more attentive to what is being shown.
I mainly thought about myself - 15 versus 5... most of it was obsessing about thinking about myself and me.
15 thoughts about yourself versus 5... Do you see how central the 'me' thought is in your experience?
The 5 thoughts not about me were noises I heard, the fire crackling, traffic outside and sudden humming.
The other 5 thoughts were about noises YOU heard. Same question applies: who hears the noices? Can you find the listener? Are you listening or is listening happening?
I was amazed I obsessed so long about reporting back to you on my thoughts.
I am not sure I understand this last line. Can you elaborate on it a bit more?

Love,

Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:11 pm

Clare,


In addition to my question 'can you find the listener?', I would like you to try this exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?

Phil
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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby clarinet » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:49 pm

Hi Phil
In the case of listening to music, it is sound. But who hears it? Can you find this listener? Are you
listening or is listening happening?
No listener can be found. Listening is happening along with focus, because it is possible to not focus
and not hear, just as it is impossible to stop hearing something if focus is there. If I block my ears
I don't hear the sound, but the listener is not the ears.

15 thoughts about yourself versus 5... Do you see how central the 'me' thought is in your experience?
The other 5 thoughts were about noises YOU heard.
Yes all my thoughts were / are about the perceived me.

I am not sure I understand this last line. Can you elaborate on it a bit more?
I presumed that thoughts about the fact that I was doing this exercise at your rquest would simmer
down after the first minute. But I spent the entire time having this fact come in as thoughts
about the fact I was doing the exercise at your request.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
They are both true, the second is more pure - more true.
2. What is here without labels?
Just actual experience, without the perspective sensed separate self.

Love,
Clare

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Re: Feeling life intentfully

Postby Phil » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:02 am

Hello Clare,


Thank you for all the hard work and honest work! I like working with you.
No listener can be found.
Would you agree that this is the same for all the senses? No hearer, no smeller, no taster, no seer? Can you find a 'me' at all behind these perceptions? Who is having them? Or are these perceptions just happening? What is the further implication of this? Just ponder it, effortlessly, without getting a headache, just let this idea fill you and reflect on it. Does anything else come up?
Yes all my thoughts were / are about the perceived me.
Yet all your thoughts are about this 'me' and all perceptions are claimed by this me, would you agree? Claimed by a 'me' that is nowhere to be found?

When doing the exercise expressing your experience with/without 'I' you say:
They are both true, the second is more pure - more true.
Can you tell me why the second is more pure, more true to you? Describe what happens when you do it. Look deeper and find out why it feels like that and report back please!

Love Phil
Stop following the crowd. They're lost as fuck.
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