What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

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Vivien
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:36 am

Hi Gwen,
Sometimes it looks like a big joke, something that we bought into, is SO sticky, but doesn't stand up to any scrutiny! Sometimes it makes me giggle when you ask me these questions, like the joke is seen.
Great! :)

And when it seems to be sticky, what is the illusion of the self is sticking TO?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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GFree
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:11 pm

And when it seems to be sticky, what is the illusion of the self is sticking TO?
Good question. What I mean is that there are still many times throughout the day that awareness turns to and is lost in thought. Then, a thought will appear "what is actually happening here?" or something similar and I again look and try to see if there is an "I" involved. Sometimes the thoughts are very loud and repetitive and it is hard to believe that there is no "me". There is nothing for the illusion of the self to stick to, but those thoughts still appear, and it shows me that I still have not seen 100% through the illusion.

I hope that this is clear.

Thanks!

Gwen

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Vivien
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:08 am

Hi Gwen,
There is nothing for the illusion of the self to stick to, but those thoughts still appear, and it shows me that I still have not seen 100% through the illusion.
Ohh.. so you think that seeing through the self means to no more thoughts about ‘me’?

That seeing through the self should happen 24/7?

Is seeing through the illusion is a different experience or state that normally happening?

V: And when it seems to be sticky, what is the illusion of the self is sticking TO?
G: Good question. What I mean is that there are still many times throughout the day that awareness turns to and is lost in thought. Then, a thought will appear "what is actually happening here?" or something similar and I again look and try to see if there is an "I" involved. Sometimes the thoughts are very loud and repetitive and it is hard to believe that there is no "me". There is nothing for the illusion of the self to stick to,
OK. You gave an intellectual explanation what is happening.

But please look now.

Is there ANY-thing here in this very moment that the illusion of the self could stick TO?

Please look very carefully many times before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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GFree
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:30 am

Ohh.. so you think that seeing through the self means to no more thoughts about ‘me’?
Yes - I though that seeing through the self, if I no longer believe that there's a "me" would mean that I would no longer have those thoughts around "me".
That seeing through the self should happen 24/7?
Well - I kind of thought that it would like believing in a Santa Claus. Once I saw that there was no Santa, I didn't have to look again and again to see that, yes, there really was no Santa.
Is seeing through the illusion is a different experience or state that normally happening?
It has been looking again and again. And every time I look, it has been just like "where is the Gwen that doesn't want this to happen (for example), and the answer is always - there is no Gwen. There is just an idea of Gwen. There is no difference in my state. My experience? When I see through the illusion, when I stop and ask "what is truly here, what is truly happening?", the focus goes away from the mind, and my experience seems to be one of relief and peace.
Is there ANY-thing here in this very moment that the illusion of the self could stick TO?
No - since the illusion of the self is just a thought. It just comes and goes. The thoughts about stickiness are just other thoughts. Yeah.

Gwen

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Vivien
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:54 am

Hi Gwen,
Yes - I though that seeing through the self, if I no longer believe that there's a "me" would mean that I would no longer have those thoughts around "me".
This is a very unrealistic belief, which definitely won’t happen.

There has never ever been a self/me, and yet, thoughts of me/I has been there almost constantly.
So why would this change, just because of the self is as an illusion?
This won’t change.
V: That seeing through the self should happen 24/7?
G: Well - I kind of thought that it would like believing in a Santa Claus. Once I saw that there was no Santa, I didn't have to look again and again to see that, yes, there really was no Santa.
Just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that the illusion will be seen through 24/7. Not even close. Many people have the belief that seeing through the self means that the illusion will be seen as an illusion all the time, or at least most of the time. But this is not how it is.

So this won’t happen for a while. Realising that there is no inherent self is just a BEGINNING (just the first step) and not an ending. There are still many beliefs, patterns and emotions that will need clearing as not everything is rewritten in one fowl swoop. So please put aside all expectations that by the end of this exploration you should be seeing/feeling this 24/7. There has never been a separate self….ever…so things aren’t going to change. The only thing that changes is how life and the idea of a separate self are perceived.

Perception changes and with that some reactions may change. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
When I see through the illusion, when I stop and ask "what is truly here, what is truly happening?", the focus goes away from the mind, and my experience seems to be one of relief and peace.
But this is just a temporary state. Every emotion let be pleasant or unpleasant is just a fleeting state.

Seeing that the self is just an illusion, is NOT a state.
It’s not about being in a state of constant peace and relief.
Seeing through the self is NOT about not having half of the emotions (the unpleasant ones).
And it's also not a state where there are no more thoughts, or focus on thoughts/mind.

It’s simply about the RECOGNITION that there has never been a self (regardless what emotion is present or not).

Remember... we are looking for the FACTS, not for an experience/state.

All expectations, no matter what you expect is not what it is going to be like. Anytime you feel stuck, come back to expectations, if there is something that you think that should be happening, but it isn't- there is an expectation behind it. They are not useful but in the way.
And every time I look, it has been just like "where is the Gwen that doesn't want this to happen (for example), and the answer is always - there is no Gwen. There is just an idea of Gwen. There is no difference in my state.
Could you please tell me where do you look for the self, and how do you do the looking itself exactly?
My experience?
This is a good question.

Stop now, and just observe what is happening.

WHAT is it exactly that is having this experience (whatever is happening now)?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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GFree
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:14 pm

Hi Vivien!

Thanks again for this line of questioning. It's been very helpful. I actually answered most of these questions, then moved the cursed curser too far to the left on my screen and the whole thing disappeared! Okay. Questions for the day, take 2:
So why would this change, just because of the self is as an illusion?
There is no reason that it would change, if one looks at lit logically, but I apparently I had a romanticized idea that it would change. That's okay. It's actually really good information, and I noticed that I was using it as a measuring stick once you pointed it out.
Could you please tell me where do you look for the self, and how do you do the looking itself exactly?
Good question. I get very quiet and start to observe. I observe thoughts and see if there's a Gwen that's generating these thoughts. I observe the body, as as we did the exercises, to see if I can move the body. It still seems as though it's moving of it's own wisdom and accord. I look at the content of the thoughts that happen. Most of them are self-referencing. If they are past thoughts about something that just happened, I ask: where is that Gwen? That Gwen is not. That Gwen is just a thought. Future thoughts, same thing. Where is Gwen? There is no Gwen in the future either. The same thing with all of the people that appear in thoughts - they actually don't exist, except as thoughts. Right now, when I look for Gwen same thing. The thoughts that I am having are actually in the past by the time that I look at them. It's weird. What is here? It's an aliveness.
WHAT is it exactly that is having this experience (whatever is happening now)?
Now that is the million dollar question. I need to go way way back and look at this one. Wow. What exactly . . . .


I want to really look at this one.

In gratitude,

Gwen

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Vivien
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:28 am

Hi Gwen,
There is no reason that it would change, if one looks at lit logically, but I apparently I had a romanticized idea that it would change. That's okay. It's actually really good information, and I noticed that I was using it as a measuring stick once you pointed it out.
It’s great that you can see this. And exactly this is the problem with all expectations. That they become a measuring sticks.
V: WHAT is it exactly that is having this experience (whatever is happening now)?
G: Now that is the million dollar question. I need to go way way back and look at this one. Wow. What exactly . . . .
I want to really look at this one.
Yes, please be very thorough.

WHAT is it exactly that is having this experience (whatever is happening now)?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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GFree
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:38 pm

Vivien -

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your wonderful support. It has been very helpful to look with your pointing questions.

I have decided not to pursue this way of looking any longer. It is not my path at this time.

Kind regards,

Gwen

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Vivien
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Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:35 pm

Hi Gwen,

Thank you for your honesty. If any time you change your mind and would like to continue, this thread will be open for you, you just have to post here.

All the best,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:38 pm

Thank you Vivian.

Gwen


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