What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:50 am

Hi Gwen,
I play back the scenario in my mind. Thoughts appear, one after the other. When I remember, there is no predicting which thought will come next, or what it will be. I could not find a choose. The conversation lightened and so did the thoughts in my head. Thoughts appeared.
And how does it feel to see this?

Please go to the fridge and take out some food or drink. Watch like a hawk.
Look for the choice-point. Is there one?

During the day when there is a seeming choosing or decision making is happening, look for the exact moment when choosing happening.
Is there a chooser at any time?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:28 am

Good evening Vivien!

Thank you for your reply. It's nice to be connected. Things happen. Not sure why. ;-)

I play back the scenario in my mind. Thoughts appear, one after the other. When I remember, there is no predicting which thought will come next, or what it will be. I could not find a chooser. The conversation lightened and so did the thoughts in my head. Thoughts appeared.
And how does it feel to see this?
I'm going to answer this one on a feeling level, as that is how the question is worded.
I feel somewhat confused, as all of my life I had been taught to choose to do the right thing. When faced with a moral dilemma, if "I" am conscious of what is occurring, I try and do what is kind and loving. I want to see the truth. What is the truth here? What is the movement that is love? My thoughts are limited. They are not me. They cannot understand love. They cannot understand anything - they are just thoughts. I seem to keep tripping over this same question.

Please go to the fridge and take out some food or drink. Watch like a hawk.
Look for the choice-point. Is there one?
I could not find a choice point. My thoughts didn't even seem that involved in the process. I looked and looked and could not find a moment where I chose. In some ways it seems hilarious.

During the day when there is a seeming choosing or decision making is happening, look for the exact moment when choosing happening.
Is there a chooser at any time?
I have never ever found a chooser. It might be easier if I could turn off this incessant stream of verbiage that keeps talking in the head.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:18 am

Hi Gwen,
I feel somewhat confused
Confusion is very good. It comes in because what is found in Reality is very, very different than expected and goes against all convention.
as all of my life I had been taught to choose to do the right thing. When faced with a moral dilemma, if "I" am conscious of what is occurring, I try and do what is kind and loving. I want to see the truth. What is the truth here? What is the movement that is love? My thoughts are limited. They are not me. They cannot understand love. They cannot understand anything - they are just thoughts. I seem to keep tripping over this same question.
What questions are you talking about?
I have never ever found a chooser. It might be easier if I could turn off this incessant stream of verbiage that keeps talking in the head.
WHAT has the problem with the stream of thoughts?
My thoughts are limited. They are not me.
‘MY thoughts’, ‘not ME’.
WHAT is owning thoughts?

Please don’t come up with speculations. And also don’t just say that you cannot find the me. But ACTIVELY search for it, again and again and again…. and even more….

You have to be certain with your reply.

This is very simple
. I cannot emphasize the simplicity enough, actually. Have you heard phrases like, "It's right here" or "It's so simple"? It's a good idea to take that very literally.

And remember, like a child….

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:20 pm

Hi Vivien -

I realize that I need to slow down this process and get the answers more solidly grounded. I am having a lot of insistent thoughts and beliefs come up that say "I am never going to get this" and "I can't get rid of the idea that it's in my head", thoughts of "these thoughts are so distracting". I realize that they are all thoughts, but I think that they are coming up because of fear of awakening. I am spending time looking at this so that I can go forward.

I am not backing off, nor taking a breather. I'm doing what I feel is necessary to proceed.
What questions are you talking about?
I was talking about the belief that there is a chooser in my head.

Thank you very much for your continued support. I am using the book "Awakening True" by Lisa Kahale to assist me as well. I'm not leaving the forum, and am still asking for your guidance. I just wanted to communicate with you what is going on.

Much love,

Gwen

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:11 am

Hi Gwen,
I am using the book "Awakening True" by Lisa Kahale to assist me as well. I'm not leaving the forum, and am still asking for your guidance.
We agreed at the beginning that you will put aside all books and teachings during our investigation. So I would like to ask you not read or listen to any teachers, since reading and listening is contradictory with looking. Yes, Lisa was a guide in LU, and yet I would like to ask you to focus on this investigation only. After we finished you can read and listen to anything you want to. This is for your benefit. If you put your focus somewhere other than this investigation, you lessening your chances to see through the self.
I realize that they are all thoughts, but I think that they are coming up because of fear of awakening. I am spending time looking at this so that I can go forward.
Let’s focus on this fear. Since this fear is in the way. Maybe that’s why you resort to read about this topic, rather than stay with this investigation.

So let’s put looking aside for a bit, and just investigate this fear.

Fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as if it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?


Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:32 am

Hi Vivien -

I think that there are a few things that I need to clear up with you as I'm feeling a little upset by your answers.

"We agreed at the beginning that you will put aside all books and teachings during our investigation. So I would like to ask you not read or listen to any teachers, since reading and listening is contradictory with looking. Yes, Lisa was a guide in LU, and yet I would like to ask you to focus on this investigation only. After we finished you can read and listen to anything you want to. This is for your benefit. If you put your focus somewhere other than this investigation, you lessening your chances to see through the self."

You mention in your reply that "reading and listening is contradictory with looking", but you do not know that I was only reading and listening. I am in a sincere search, and when I did read Lisa's book, I spent a lot of time looking as well. I had read it before, went back to review the paragraphs that she had written on fear, and spent a good deal of time looking and writing which was quite valuable to me.

I do value your knowledge and your guidance, and I also value my inner gut. I was not wandering away. I am familiar with my coping patterns and felt that I needed to relax a bit and take care of this fear. I would like to move forward with you now.
What do you want to protect me from?
There is fear of change, something will be different which cannot of course be defined, and there is a fear of that. I just dug up a gem: Fear of loss of control. I need to look at this one more. This feels bigger. How can fear protect me from perceived loss of control?

There is an image of myself that "I" like. It's a Gwen that's friendly and well-liked, and is a "nurse" and is funny and funky and lives in a nice home. There are thoughts that I fear loosing this Gwen. When I sit with this image, when I look, I can see that the whole image is false, is dust, is nothing, is changeable, is not even true. It's a series of thoughts, a collage or construct. There is no Gwen actually there in those images. Nothing to be lost there. Okay - that was good and helpful.
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?
I can't actually come up with anything at the moment. I am looking, but perhaps my thoughts about this have gone stealth. I will keep looking.

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?
Nothing is coming up for me with the last question either. I want to do more looking. I don't find anything behind the fear. There is silence.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:05 am

Hi Gwen,
You mention in your reply that "reading and listening is contradictory with looking", but you do not know that I was only reading and listening. I am in a sincere search, and when I did read Lisa's book, I spent a lot of time looking as well. I had read it before, went back to review the paragraphs that she had written on fear, and spent a good deal of time looking and writing which was quite valuable to me.
All right.
I think that there are a few things that I need to clear up with you as I'm feeling a little upset by your answers.
You can use this feeling of upset for looking.

Yes, there is an upset, but is there a person/self/me that is upset?
Or upset is just happening on its own, without anything or anyone doing it?
There is fear of change, something will be different which cannot of course be defined, and there is a fear of that. I just dug up a gem: Fear of loss of control. I need to look at this one more. This feels bigger. How can fear protect me from perceived loss of control?
This fear comes up because there is an underlying belief that is a me/I which could lose control.

But it’s not about a self/me losing control, but rather that there is no self/me/I at all, which could have control.
So there is no control not because ‘I can lose control’.

There is no control since there is no I/me/self what could control anything.
So you/Gwen cannot lose control, since there is no you/Gwen at all that could lose anything.
Can you see the difference?

So, while observing that there is no control anywhere, did you also notice that there never has been any control, and yet the world has continued on just fine?

Does the fear of losing control of life have a foundation if life has always continued without a controller? Does it not take care of itself?

Why wouldn't it continue to do so by bringing up new ideas, concepts, thoughts about goals, etc?
Hasn't it always done so? :)

There is an image of myself that "I" like. It's a Gwen that's friendly and well-liked, and is a "nurse" and is funny and funky and lives in a nice home. There are thoughts that I fear loosing this Gwen. When I sit with this image, when I look, I can see that the whole image is false, is dust, is nothing, is changeable, is not even true. It's a series of thoughts, a collage or construct. There is no Gwen actually there in those images. Nothing to be lost there. Okay - that was good and helpful.
Yes, but look at this a bit more.

What is it that would lose Gwen?

Are there two selves there:
- Gwen/you
- and another you that could lose Gwen?


And Gwen cannot be lost anyway.
Gwen has ALWAYS been just an imagination, a fictional character.
So the self that has never existed cannot be lost.

And just because no self has seen, it doesn’t mean the fictional character called Gwen will stop appearing.
Gwen won’t stop appearing.
The only difference will be that Gwen will be seen for what it is, only a fictional character.
But Gwen will still be a friendly and well-liked funny nurse :) That won’t change.
The only change is the recognition that you/Gwen has always been just a fiction.
And yet, the fictional character will continue do everything just as before.

Can you see that these fears are based on beliefs and assumptions that there is another you that could lose both control and Gwen?

Where is this other you that could lose both control and Gwen?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:56 pm

You can use this feeling of upset for looking.
Yes, there is an upset, but is there a person/self/me that is upset?
Or upset is just happening on its own, without anything or anyone doing it?
Thank you for this question Vivien.

I ran this by another upset, since I couldn't really access an upset feeling about our previous exchange after I wrote about it.
Thought appears: "I should phone Mom". I noticed that this became associated with guilt because another thought arose : "I don't want to spend an hour on the phone" and "But she won't be around forever". Associated sensations were noticed - tightness in the chest area.

Those were the the two things that I noticed.Thoughts were observed and sensations/feelings observed. It was all arising on it's own. Yes, I can see that. There was no Gwen, I/me that was causing it to happen. As I type this, I am observing a tight feeling in my solar plexus area, but again, there is no I/me which is making that happen. It is just happening on it's own.

But it’s not about a self/me losing control, but rather that there is no self/me/I at all, which could have control.
So there is no control not because ‘I can lose control’.

There is no control since there is no I/me/self what could control anything.
So you/Gwen cannot lose control, since there is no you/Gwen at all that could lose anything.
Can you see the difference
Yes I can see the difference. But this belief that there is a "me" seems to be a sticky one. Thank you for your support helping me to look again and again. I look and can't find a controller or a me, but then when I'm not looking, I seem to lapse into the dream again.
So, while observing that there is no control anywhere, did you also notice that there never has been any control, and yet the world has continued on just fine?
Yes, much to my chagrin, the world seems to have been operating just fine (or not) without any control on my part (haha).
So, while observing that there is no control anywhere, did you also notice that there never has been any control, and yet the world has continued on just fine?
Yes I can see that. This brings up thoughts of chaos, and images in the past/future of people saying "you should ......". Cultural conditioning. Catholic upbringing. In the now moment, I can see that there is just being. Again a sensation of tightness in my solar plexus. The thought "you're abdicating you're responsibility", but there is no "I".

I have a question for you Vivien. I have noticed that when I begin to question something that there may be some fear around, as in the above paragraph, that thoughts will just churn and come up with more questions and escape clauses and on and on and on. I have found it helpful to pause and feel into whatever sensation has come up in the body, and then just be present. When I notice the room, the breathing, the silence behind my thoughts, then I notice the thoughts, questions and postulations quiet down. It is just presence or whatever happening. Do you think that this is helpful? Otherwise it seems like my thoughts are taking me down a rabbit hole.
Why wouldn't it continue to do so by bringing up new ideas, concepts, thoughts about goals, etc?
Hasn't it always done so? :)
I think it would continue to do so as it has always done.
What is it that would lose Gwen?
When I ask myself this, I come up with nothing. Zip. Since "Gwen" never was. Again, I understand intellectually, but not in my gut.
Are there two selves there:
- Gwen/you
- and another you that could lose Gwen?
Haha - I can see the flawed logic of it, and it looks funny. That's the logic that thought is using. When I looked at this question, it was felt more as an expansion rather than a thought.

Can you see that these fears are based on beliefs and assumptions that there is another you that could lose both control and Gwen?
Yes. I see that! But I feel like my brain is fried right now. Holy cow, this felt like deep diving. I need to read the previous question and answer it over and over again.
Where is this other you that could lose both control and Gwen?
I need to go for a run.

Real answer: It seems ridiculous that there would be another me that would lose control and Gwen. Seriously though, I need to come back to this because I want to look more closely. I was awake a lot of the night wrestling with these questions and have been on the couch about an hour and a half looking. Whew!

Thanks Vivien

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:15 am

Hi Gwen,
Real answer: It seems ridiculous that there would be another me that would lose control and Gwen. Seriously though, I need to come back to this because I want to look more closely.
Yes, please do that. Here are my previous comments and questions again.

What is it that would lose Gwen?

Are there two selves there:
- Gwen/you
- and another you that could lose Gwen?


And Gwen cannot be lost anyway.
Gwen has ALWAYS been just an imagination, a fictional character.
So the self that has never existed cannot be lost.
And just because no self has seen, it doesn’t mean the fictional character called Gwen will stop appearing.
Gwen won’t stop appearing.

The only difference will be that Gwen will be seen for what it is, only a fictional character.
But Gwen will still be a friendly and well-liked funny nurse :) That won’t change.
The only change is the recognition that you/Gwen has always been just a fiction.
And yet, the fictional character will continue do everything just as before.

Can you see that these fears are based on beliefs and assumptions that there is another you that could lose both control and Gwen?

Where is this other you that could lose both control and Gwen?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:02 am

Hi Gwen,

How is looking going? Are you still with me?

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:34 am

Vivien -

I apologize for the delay in answering the last posting. There are a number of reasons for my tardiness.

Mostly, I needed time to really look to see if there was a Gwen. I needed to slow down my pace to really look, and I also needed to use some meditation practice to access that part of me that was not just thinking, as that part was taking me down the rabbit hole. I am still planning on taking this time, as it has been very beneficial. I have been able to observe thinking much better when I don't feel so pressured to answer before I feel the answer solidly. Another reason is that I have been working a LOT this week.

I have been using Loch Kelly videos to access awareness, and it has really helped me see that my thoughts are making up a Gwen that is not there. I know that I used the word "my" in the last sentence - I could say thoughts that are appearing are making up a Gwen, but I don't want to change what is happening, and at the moment, the words that spring to mind are "my" thoughts. I also know that the agreement was not to use other teachers, but it is really useful to me at this time. If you don't think you want to continue guiding me, I completely understand.

You are asking very good questions, and I need time to look and look to see. Maybe I'm a slow learner, but I am serious about this process.

It's 8:30 pm in Canada,I left the house before 7:00 am, and I'm really beat this evening. I will say more tomorrow.

Thank you again Vivien. I am grateful for your help.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:24 am

Hi Gwen,
I have been using Loch Kelly videos to access awareness,
Awareness itself is the illusion. And the illusion of awareness is the BASES of the separate self.

And who or what would access awareness anyway?

Trying to stay as awareness is usually a pleasant STATE, since there is a dissociation from everything else that this SEEMING awareness is aware of. So this awareness separated itself from everything else, thus it’s supposed to be unaffected by life.

But seeing no-self is NOT a STATE.

States are fleeting. They come and go, they are never permanent.
Seeing through the self is not a state.

It’s the experiential knowing/recognition that there is NOTHING separate from everything else, not even as an awareness.
Seeing no self is seeing no-separation.

So with the belief in awareness, the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification, “I am that which is aware”…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object). And the identification with awareness is an excellent hiding place for the separate self. Since all the seeming realness of the separate self comes from the seeming realness of a standalone awareness. So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?

This awareness is an ultimate illusion, although sometimes it SEEMS to very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion. And for those who engaged in non-dual teachings this sometimes can be a serious stumbling block.

So what you are doing is counterproductive to seeing through the illusion. Actually, it’s the opposite.

So you have to make a decision if you want to really see through the illusion altogether, or you just want to replace one belief (illusion) with another one.

Please let me know how you decide.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:25 pm

Good morning Vivien -

I guess the problem with writing on a forum such as this is that so much of written is open to the receiver's interpretation of what the writer sent. I will attempt to clarify what I meant when I unfortunately used the word awareness.

By awareness, what I did not mean, was that I was an observer watching what was happening. In this, I absolutely get what you're saying. What I meant when I said awareness, was the description of an almost blank, absent, silent ummm .. . . . It's hard to describe it, because it's not a place, it's just a nothing. It's just being where what is happening is just happening. Thoughts are happening, sensations are happening, perceptions are happening. They are just arising on their own. I guess what I meant to describe is that if I can stop my thinking, a question comes up . . . . what is actually happening in this moment? It seems as thought there is this great silence and things just happen. I find that this is helpful to me because I have looked and looked and yet have never ever found a Gwen or me anywhere. When I am silent, when I question the thoughts that appear about something that might happen to me (for example) - there is actually no me ever ever that that could happen to! It's just a total thought. A vapor.
So what you are doing is counterproductive to seeing through the illusion. Actually, it’s the opposite.
I understand that an observer would be another subtle version of the self. There is just ......... it's impossible to describe. There is nothing. There is one. There is everything.

I want to see through the illusion. Maybe it's just a matter of time. Observing again and again that life is just happening. Maybe it will take time for the identification with "Gwen" or "me" looses it's grip.

Thank you Vivien. I am interested in hearing what you think.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4619
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:14 am

Hi Gwen,
By awareness, what I did not mean, was that I was an observer watching what was happening. In this, I absolutely get what you're saying. What I meant when I said awareness, was the description of an almost blank, absent, silent ummm ..
The belief in awareness is a very popular spiritual belief. So you have to be careful not to take on more beliefs.
Maybe it will take time for the identification with "Gwen" or "me" looses it's grip.
Are you expecting that the identification with ‘Gwen’ will stop?

Does the presence of the identification matters?
Matters to who/what?

How would you recognize if the self has been seen only as an illusion?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GFree
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Re: What is my experience trying to show me? Seeking what I REALLY am in Truth.

Postby GFree » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:48 am

Good evening Vivien!
Are you expecting that the identification with ‘Gwen’ will stop?
The expectation was there, but that may not be true at all.
Does the presence of the identification matters?
It really doesn't matter at all. All that is, just is. It won't change anything.
Matters to who/what?
Thoughts come up as to how annoying it is, but those are just thoughts.

Sometimes it looks like a big joke, something that we bought into, is SO sticky, but doesn't stand up to any scrutiny! Sometimes it makes me giggle when you ask me these questions, like the joke is seen.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests