No comment, no conclusion

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:17 am

Dear Adil

Just to let you know that it may be tomorrow before I reply to you as I have a long drive today (which is going to take all day). I will practice as you have suggested and get back to you.

Love Sara
Thank you for letting me know Sara.

Waiting for your answers.

Sending much love have a good journey :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:51 am

LOOKING IN ACTUAL EXPERIENCE
A couple of examples:
Washing
Feel of water, temperature, texture
Smell of soap
Thoughts about washing
Taste
Looking at face-cloth and water
Sound of splashing

Putting on shoes
Looking at "shoes"
Feeling texture, weight
Noticing thoughts about shoes
Smelling
No particular taste
Sound of laces being fastened

I'm noticing that when I pay close attention to mundane activities that I usually do in a very automatic way, they become more alive, fresh and also a bit bizarre? What are these things that I am putting on my feet that I call "shoes". So, seeing how the label subtracts from the experience and that the label is not the thing itself, just short-hand.

I am also aware of how my thoughts are quite often concerned with the next activity, even while I'm performing something else. That feels like "me-making".

Trying to stay with direct experience in the present moment.

I didn't attempt to do this when driving yesterday as I felt I needed a broad awareness rather than narrowly focused.

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:14 am

LOOKING IN ACTUAL EXPERIENCE
A couple of examples:
Washing
Feel of water, temperature, texture
Smell of soap
Thoughts about washing
Taste
Looking at face-cloth and water
Sound of splashing

Putting on shoes
Looking at "shoes"
Feeling texture, weight
Noticing thoughts about shoes
Smelling
No particular taste
Sound of laces being fastened

I'm noticing that when I pay close attention to mundane activities that I usually do in a very automatic way, they become more alive, fresh and also a bit bizarre? What are these things that I am putting on my feet that I call "shoes". So, seeing how the label subtracts from the experience and that the label is not the thing itself, just short-hand.

I am also aware of how my thoughts are quite often concerned with the next activity, even while I'm performing something else. That feels like "me-making".

Trying to stay with direct experience in the present moment.

I didn't attempt to do this when driving yesterday as I felt I needed a broad awareness rather than narrowly focused.
Thank you for the reply Lisa.
Good to hear from you..


Washing
Feel of water, temperature, texture


Sensation+thought labels (water-temperature-texture)

As you can see experience happens and labeling kicks in.
There is only seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing, smelling. Infact, even these words 'seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, sensing' are just words that comes out of thoughts. In reality, there is just THIS EXPERIENCE. And what is aware of this experience? It is aware of itself.
Thoughts then comes into being separating experience into ‘seeing, hearing, sensing, etc.’. Then thought further divides seeing into seer, seeing and seen (similarly other aspects of experience).

Let's look more to this labeling,

Here is a great article from dear Ilona

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

please read it and do the exercise given there and tell me what comes...

Waiting to hear from you
sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:07 pm

don't forget daily looking is the key to this realization Lisa ;)
Waiting to hear from you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:30 am

Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:19 pm

This is the exercise:

I am sitting in a reclining chair, feeling quite comfortable. I can hear K in the shower. I am aware of my feet on the carpet and my buttocks against the chair seat, especially my right one. I am aware of some slight discomfort in my shoulders and also my solar plexus. I am looking forward to my trip out this morning. I am watching the birds on the feeder – they are squabbling. There are lots of them. I feel pain in my hands; they look swollen. I feel pride at using a semi-colon correctly! I have the thought that that is ludicrous. I need to put more water in the flower vase. I need to look back to the article to check I am doing this correctly.
No past or future fantasy – just plain description of right here, right now.

I am typing. My fingers sometimes miss the keys. I hear the birds rattling the fat balls against the window pane. I identify them as sparrows. I have some thoughts about scarcity of sparrows. I look at the yellow roses. I think about tidying up. I notice the reflection in the tv screen. I look to the other window and see a ring neck dove and jackdaws. I notice unpleasant feeling. I hear the water trickling. I see a white dove out of the corner of my eye. I notice the blanket on the floor. I feel aching in my hands. I notice my breath. I experience my mouth as dry. I look at all the greenery outside. I hear K upstairs. I notice the birds fighting. I hear K’s phone ringing. It sounds loud. I notice the clock running slow. I feel my knees. I feel tired. The back of my hand is wet where I wiped my mouth. I wipe it again. I hear K moving around upstairs. I feel something in the glands of my neck. My nose feels blocked. My neck feels tight and stiff and my toe is a little uncomfortable. I see the birds flying through the branches. My glasses are slipping down my nose. I push them back up. I move my feet and cough. My fingers are splayed out over the keyboard. I hear the creaking floorboards upstairs then Kraig coming down the stairs. I have an ulcer on my tongue. It is sore. I hear K in the kitchen, taking food from the oven – the rustle of tinfoil and I can smell the food, hear the clanging of the metal grill pan and noises as he moves around the kitchen. My glasses feel sore on my ears. I hear the sound of the coffee pot and something around the sink. I hear my breathing. I hear the noise of my fingers on the keyboard. I notice the cactus on the window ledge. I see the dove looking in through the window, perched on a post. I hear loud noises in the kitchen and rustling.
Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?
Nothing really noticeable going on body-wise.

Sitting, breathing, hearing the breath, hearing the silence, smelling food, noticing fingers, feeling saliva at the corner of my mouth, wiping saliva away, seeing wet hand, waiting for thought, slight ache in shoulder, reflection of flowers in window pane, checking back to article, swallowing, breathing, dull sensation in head, mouth open, breathing, tongue dry, open mouthed breathing, sigh, legs bent, buttocks and back against chair, head bent forward, warm legs, lips against teeth, belly moving up and down, sensation in top of left arm, seeing frame of glasses, back of skull, hearing slight noises in house, thoughts about next activity, moving head to left to look out of window, and again, noticing not writing as much, noticing slowed down, saliva at corner of mouth, wiping it away with other hand, hearing breathing, feeling sleeves against my lower arms and wrists, and the doorbell ringing.
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
The second account seems more in line with reality – more true. I’m still labelling but it’s less self-referential. It’s just like there is something happening. Labels do affect the experience – they seem to reduce it – they don’t really describe what is really happening. Just a kind of shorthand.

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:07 pm

This is the exercise:

I am sitting in a reclining chair, feeling quite comfortable. I can hear K in the shower. I am aware of my feet on the carpet and my buttocks against the chair seat, especially my right one. I am aware of some slight discomfort in my shoulders and also my solar plexus. I am looking forward to my trip out this morning. I am watching the birds on the feeder – they are squabbling. There are lots of them. I feel pain in my hands; they look swollen. I feel pride at using a semi-colon correctly! I have the thought that that is ludicrous. I need to put more water in the flower vase. I need to look back to the article to check I am doing this correctly.
No past or future fantasy – just plain description of right here, right now.

I am typing. My fingers sometimes miss the keys. I hear the birds rattling the fat balls against the window pane. I identify them as sparrows. I have some thoughts about scarcity of sparrows. I look at the yellow roses. I think about tidying up. I notice the reflection in the tv screen. I look to the other window and see a ring neck dove and jackdaws. I notice unpleasant feeling. I hear the water trickling. I see a white dove out of the corner of my eye. I notice the blanket on the floor. I feel aching in my hands. I notice my breath. I experience my mouth as dry. I look at all the greenery outside. I hear K upstairs. I notice the birds fighting. I hear K’s phone ringing. It sounds loud. I notice the clock running slow. I feel my knees. I feel tired. The back of my hand is wet where I wiped my mouth. I wipe it again. I hear K moving around upstairs. I feel something in the glands of my neck. My nose feels blocked. My neck feels tight and stiff and my toe is a little uncomfortable. I see the birds flying through the branches. My glasses are slipping down my nose. I push them back up. I move my feet and cough. My fingers are splayed out over the keyboard. I hear the creaking floorboards upstairs then Kraig coming down the stairs. I have an ulcer on my tongue. It is sore. I hear K in the kitchen, taking food from the oven – the rustle of tinfoil and I can smell the food, hear the clanging of the metal grill pan and noises as he moves around the kitchen. My glasses feel sore on my ears. I hear the sound of the coffee pot and something around the sink. I hear my breathing. I hear the noise of my fingers on the keyboard. I notice the cactus on the window ledge. I see the dove looking in through the window, perched on a post. I hear loud noises in the kitchen and rustling.
Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?
Nothing really noticeable going on body-wise.

Sitting, breathing, hearing the breath, hearing the silence, smelling food, noticing fingers, feeling saliva at the corner of my mouth, wiping saliva away, seeing wet hand, waiting for thought, slight ache in shoulder, reflection of flowers in window pane, checking back to article, swallowing, breathing, dull sensation in head, mouth open, breathing, tongue dry, open mouthed breathing, sigh, legs bent, buttocks and back against chair, head bent forward, warm legs, lips against teeth, belly moving up and down, sensation in top of left arm, seeing frame of glasses, back of skull, hearing slight noises in house, thoughts about next activity, moving head to left to look out of window, and again, noticing not writing as much, noticing slowed down, saliva at corner of mouth, wiping it away with other hand, hearing breathing, feeling sleeves against my lower arms and wrists, and the doorbell ringing.
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
The second account seems more in line with reality – more true. I’m still labelling but it’s less self-referential. It’s just like there is something happening. Labels do affect the experience – they seem to reduce it – they don’t really describe what is really happening. Just a kind of shorthand.
Yes Lisa

Thank you for your detailed looking..
I see that you get what i would like from you to get from this exercise.
Sure feels more true without using this label "i" "me" "self"
As Ilona very well said : "Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening. With or without label I."
So does labels really effect the experience from happening ?
Does not seeing happen if you use the word "i" ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:27 pm

Image

What is it in this picture ? Watch the mind labeling. It says "Batman"
If you think about him, you have thoughts, feelings.
They’re real, right?

Watch the thought making a story out of colors..

But is Batman real ?
Does Batman exist ?

There are thoughts and images about a Batman but,

Is he real ?
How different is "Self" ?

There are thoughts and images about a you
but a being that is living life real or just another thought story
Can you see this
LOOK!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:22 am

I will reply to you about the exercises later but just wanted to let you know that I am away on a meditation retreat from Mon 22 July until Fri 2:August. I won't have internet access so I wondered if you have anything over and above continuing to look closely at
daily life. I do want to keep up the momentum. I will continue to reply up until Sunday. Thank you Adil. Love Sara.

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:28 pm

I will reply to you about the exercises later but just wanted to let you know that I am away on a meditation retreat from Mon 22 July until Fri 2:August. I won't have internet access so I wondered if you have anything over and above continuing to look closely at
daily life. I do want to keep up the momentum. I will continue to reply up until Sunday. Thank you Adil. Love Sara.
That's ok Sara,
Thanks for letting me know.
We will go on until idea of "you" disappear.
So let's go on..

Waiting for your answers..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:02 am

So does labels really effect the experience from happening ?
Does not seeing happen if you use the word "i" ?
The experience happens anyway whether we label it or not. It makes me think of the quote "Bare phenomena roll on." The labels have the effect of reducing/limiting and fixing our experience which otherwise feels more open and ungraspable.

Using the word "I" gets in the way of seeing clearly. It's like imposing a false distinction or a barrier. Although there is still seeing when you use the word "I", it is limited and in some way untrue.

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:57 am

What is it in this picture ? Watch the mind labeling. It says "Batman" YES THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.
If you think about him, you have thoughts, feelings. YES
They’re real, right? THEY FEEL REAL

Watch the thought making a story out of colors.. I SEE NOW THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING

But is Batman real ? NO !
Does Batman exist ? NO !

There are thoughts and images about a Batman but,

Is he real ? NO !
How different is "Self" ? NOT AT ALL - IT'S THE SAME

There are thoughts and images about a you
but a being that is living life real or just another thought story JUST ANOTHER THOUGHT STORY
Can you see this YES - I SEE IT INTELLECTUALLY BUT THEN I FORGET IT AND SLIP INTO ANOTHER DREAM ABOUT "THE STORY OF ME"
LOOK!

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:50 am

What is it in this picture ? Watch the mind labeling. It says "Batman" YES THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.
If you think about him, you have thoughts, feelings. YES
They’re real, right? THEY FEEL REAL

Watch the thought making a story out of colors.. I SEE NOW THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING

But is Batman real ? NO !
Does Batman exist ? NO !

There are thoughts and images about a Batman but,

Is he real ? NO !
How different is "Self" ? NOT AT ALL - IT'S THE SAME

There are thoughts and images about a you
but a being that is living life real or just another thought story JUST ANOTHER THOUGHT STORY
Can you see this YES - I SEE IT INTELLECTUALLY BUT THEN I FORGET IT AND SLIP INTO ANOTHER DREAM ABOUT "THE STORY OF ME"
LOOK!
very good looking Sara.
Thank you
I SEE IT INTELLECTUALLY BUT THEN I FORGET IT AND SLIP INTO ANOTHER DREAM ABOUT "THE STORY OF ME"
There is no "you" to slip in to "the story of me"
It is thought within thought. Another thought saying ."SLIP INTO ANOTHER DREAM ABOUT "THE STORY OF ME"

It is years of conditioned thinking patterns and they will change as long as you go on LOOKING instead of thinking.
Try to stop going in to thought stories and stay with the direct experiences more like we did on the cup exercise.
I'll tell 1-2 exercises later that you can do also when you are away for retreat..

Let's go on looking ;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:59 am

Now you see how thoughts label the experience and you see how automatic.

Everything happens it self. Can you show me anything not happening itself ?

Like the thoughts..

Let's take a closer look how thought works, and tomorrow i'll be sending you easy exercises that you can do on your free time at the retreat..

Sit down relax for 10 mins. Drop any kind of distractions..

Focus on any kind of thought appearing and ask questions below one by one and answer please..

Wait for the next thought and look...

where is it coming from and where is it going?

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?

Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another self appearing thought :)

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

Do you really have any control over thoughts?

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:27 am

There is no "you" to slip in to "the story of me"
It is thought within thought. Another thought saying ."SLIP INTO ANOTHER DREAM ABOUT "THE STORY OF ME"
OH MAN! I GET THAT NOW - I'M NOT SAYING THAT I'LL NEVER DO IT AGAIN AT THIS STAGE THOUGH. THANKS FOR POINTING THAT OUT.


EXERCISE ON THOUGHTS

where is it coming from and where is it going? APPEARS RANDOMLY OUT OF NOWHERE AND DISAPPEARS GOING NOWHERE

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives? NO

Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another self appearing thought :) NO

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves? THOUGHTS JUST APPEAR BY THEMSELVES

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time? NO - THOUGHTS SEEM TO BE JUST A STREAM APPEARING ONE AFTER ANOTHER

Do you really have any control over thoughts? NO

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ? NO - IT'S JUST THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER THOUGHTS THAT ARISE

Can a thought think? NO - THERE IS THINKING BUT THOUGHTS DON'T DO THAT

What can a thought do ? ARISE, SOMETIMES STAY A WHILE, THEN DISAPPEAR

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:14 am

There is no "you" to slip in to "the story of me"
It is thought within thought. Another thought saying ."SLIP INTO ANOTHER DREAM ABOUT "THE STORY OF ME"
OH MAN! I GET THAT NOW - I'M NOT SAYING THAT I'LL NEVER DO IT AGAIN AT THIS STAGE THOUGH. THANKS FOR POINTING THAT OUT.


EXERCISE ON THOUGHTS

where is it coming from and where is it going? APPEARS RANDOMLY OUT OF NOWHERE AND DISAPPEARS GOING NOWHERE

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives? NO

Can you stop a thought from coming? (Beware of thought saying "i did it"! It is another self appearing thought :) NO

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves? THOUGHTS JUST APPEAR BY THEMSELVES

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time? NO - THOUGHTS SEEM TO BE JUST A STREAM APPEARING ONE AFTER ANOTHER

Do you really have any control over thoughts? NO

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ? NO - IT'S JUST THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER THOUGHTS THAT ARISE

Can a thought think? NO - THERE IS THINKING BUT THOUGHTS DON'T DO THAT

What can a thought do ? ARISE, SOMETIMES STAY A WHILE, THEN DISAPPEAR
Brilliant looking and seeing Sara.
Thank you.
As you see thoughts appear themselves and there is no control on them.
And you said that "i" thought is the same so you see that "i" is only a thought appearing like other thoughts.
And you said "they appear and disappear"
So "you" as an idea appear and disappear.
Can you see it ?
Is it a you thinking thoughts ?
Look!



Here are 2 exercises for your retreat time to look,
After you come back please tell me how are things..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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