No comment, no conclusion

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Sara
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No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:32 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That we have a mistaken belief in an "I" - when in fact, we are a bundle of thoughts, sensations, emotions etc and are in process rather than having a fixed self.

What are you looking for at LU?
To at least loosen the attachment to self and if possible to dispel that illusion. I've been impressed by what I've read on the LU website and have been reflecting on the "enlightening quotes" for a couple of weeks.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Some support or ideas of how to proceed. The opportunity for discussion of what's happening (or not) in my day-to-day experience with regard to dispelling the illusion of self. Possibly encouragement if I'm finding it hard going!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been practising Buddhism since 2000 and meditate regularly. In recent times, I've not felt that my practice has been particularly effective in terms of spiritual growth. Life experiences and study have led me to look at "selfing" more closely.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:43 pm

Hello Sara ( Shall i call you Lisa? )
I am a guide here and my name is Adil.
If you are ready we may start the journey..
Reply this message and let's start

Sending much love.
Welcome.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:45 pm

Sorry.
Somehow "lisa" was written there.
:)
Please take it as "Sara"
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:30 am

Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:03 am

Dear Adil,

Thank you for contacting me and agreeing to be my guide in this process. I am excited and pleased to begin.

Love Sara

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:51 am

Hello Sara,
Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:43 am

Can you please tell me what comes when i tell you
"You have never been born, there is /was no you in any form, you don't have a body, you have never existed and never will be!"
Please tell me whatever comes when you hear this fact!
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:30 am

Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:27 am

"You have never been born, there is /was no you in any form, you don't have a body, you have never existed and never will be!"
There is a part of me that can understand the above quote on an intellectual level and believes it and a part of me that can't comprehend it, doesn't "get" it on a deeper, more visceral level.
When I break it down...."You have never been born"....I have been reflecting on what I am noticing about a new baby in our family...that he doesn't appear to have a self - he just seems absolutely part of everything that's going on without any separation. His construction of self hasn't yet started it seems to me. He has no self.
"There is/was no you in any form"... I understand that I have just been fabricating this self throughout my life, taking thoughts and feelings as a real, existing "me" BUT I don't feel like I actually yet act as if this is the case. Sometimes, I can. So for example, something happened a few days ago and I felt hurt, rejected, offended. So I focused on how those sensations felt in my body - tight, constricted, pain in heart area etc - and did my best to really experience them fully without adding the labels of resentment, outrage etc and without getting caught up in the story of what had just happened. I did end up laughing at the nonsense of it all and I really felt that without the illusion of self, life is so much more simple and straightforward as there's no-one there to take things so personally. That doesn't mean I won't have feelings but that I have more perspective about what's happening.
"You don't have a body" - Hmmm, my body claims a lot of my attention as I have a number of quite serious health conditions. However, I do know that my body doesn't belong to me and that my body is not my "self" although it feels like it most of the time. I guess there is no "you" to have a body.
"You have never existed and never will be" - This is just a flow of conditions and processes but we attach a label to this form and build up a whole story around it.
I feel I have some helpful thoughts around the illusion of self but there is a gap between that and putting it into practice/my experience. I think I need to bring more awareness to what's happening (as best I can) moment by moment in my daily life.
Thank you for your time Adil. I look forward to hearing from you. Love Sara.

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:42 am

"You have never been born, there is /was no you in any form, you don't have a body, you have never existed and never will be!"
There is a part of me that can understand the above quote on an intellectual level and believes it and a part of me that can't comprehend it, doesn't "get" it on a deeper, more visceral level.
When I break it down...."You have never been born"....I have been reflecting on what I am noticing about a new baby in our family...that he doesn't appear to have a self - he just seems absolutely part of everything that's going on without any separation. His construction of self hasn't yet started it seems to me. He has no self.
"There is/was no you in any form"... I understand that I have just been fabricating this self throughout my life, taking thoughts and feelings as a real, existing "me" BUT I don't feel like I actually yet act as if this is the case. Sometimes, I can. So for example, something happened a few days ago and I felt hurt, rejected, offended. So I focused on how those sensations felt in my body - tight, constricted, pain in heart area etc - and did my best to really experience them fully without adding the labels of resentment, outrage etc and without getting caught up in the story of what had just happened. I did end up laughing at the nonsense of it all and I really felt that without the illusion of self, life is so much more simple and straightforward as there's no-one there to take things so personally. That doesn't mean I won't have feelings but that I have more perspective about what's happening.
"You don't have a body" - Hmmm, my body claims a lot of my attention as I have a number of quite serious health conditions. However, I do know that my body doesn't belong to me and that my body is not my "self" although it feels like it most of the time. I guess there is no "you" to have a body.
"You have never existed and never will be" - This is just a flow of conditions and processes but we attach a label to this form and build up a whole story around it.
I feel I have some helpful thoughts around the illusion of self but there is a gap between that and putting it into practice/my experience. I think I need to bring more awareness to what's happening (as best I can) moment by moment in my daily life.
Thank you for your time Adil. I look forward to hearing from you. Love Sara.
Thank you for the detailed answer Sara.
As you see how sensations color and sound is labelled by thought, you will clearly see that there is no you and no body at all.
As you see using direct looking instead of thought content you will be seeing more clear what is really here and now..

Ok ..

Let's start to point..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:52 am

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.

You can simply LOOK and see what is true and what is not.
Actual experience is the raw experience of direct experiences 'colour-sound-smell-sensation-taste
and the simple knowing of thought at face value.

NOT the content of thought. Content of the thought is not reliable because it does not say the truth all the time

For example; Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish


The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you feel that this "i" is in the body ?

Chest?
Head ?

Point there and take a good look and tell me please what is really (Actually) there?


Blue marked parts are for you to answer :)

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:59 am

For example; Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish
No! I can conjure up an image of a fish and can imagine what it might feel like, smell like, taste like (yuk!) but it is not the fish itself.

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

I forget to look! I get carried away by thoughts as if they are reality. I will focus on remembering to look.

Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you feel that this "i" is in the body ?

Chest?
Head ?

It has always felt that the "I" lives behind my eyes looking out through these slits like a letterbox opening into the world. I know this is not really how it is and that it is just a thought like any other.

Point there and take a good look and tell me please what is really (Actually) there?
[/quote]

I am now pointing at my eyes and there is nothing other than thoughts about what I'm doing, feelings (some amusement), sensations.

Thank you Adil. I will continue to look carefully today. Love Sara x

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion - MEDITATION

Postby Sara » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:03 am

Dear Adil,

I read the information about not doing any reading/studying around this topic while we're doing the work together and that's fine. I wondered what you would advise about meditation (I do usually meditate regularly). I thought what might be most helpful is to sit for around 20 mins noticing the breathing body, then sensations, thoughts, feelings etc. What do you think?

Thanks, love Sara

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 am

For example; Can you find an actual fish in the thought of a fish
No! I can conjure up an image of a fish and can imagine what it might feel like, smell like, taste like (yuk!) but it is not the fish itself.

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

I forget to look! I get carried away by thoughts as if they are reality. I will focus on remembering to look.

Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you feel that this "i" is in the body ?

Chest?
Head ?

It has always felt that the "I" lives behind my eyes looking out through these slits like a letterbox opening into the world. I know this is not really how it is and that it is just a thought like any other.

Point there and take a good look and tell me please what is really (Actually) there?
I am now pointing at my eyes and there is nothing other than thoughts about what I'm doing, feelings (some amusement), sensations.

Thank you Adil. I will continue to look carefully today. Love Sara x
[/quote]

Brilliant looking.
Sure there is no actual fish in the label thought fish.
And Sure what really is there is color+sensations+thought about what is..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1289
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: No comment, no conclusion - MEDITATION

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:39 am

Dear Adil,

I read the information about not doing any reading/studying around this topic while we're doing the work together and that's fine. I wondered what you would advise about meditation (I do usually meditate regularly). I thought what might be most helpful is to sit for around 20 mins noticing the breathing body, then sensations, thoughts, feelings etc. What do you think?

Thanks, love Sara
You can go on your meditation, that is ok Sara, it will help you to see things more clear.
Also we will be having lots of exercises requiring concentration..
That's ok.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

User avatar
adilerten
Posts: 1289
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:44 am

Let's look more to actual experience,

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and bring me some examples of plain seeing like i did above please...

Waiting to hear from you..

Sending much love...
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Sara
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Re: No comment, no conclusion

Postby Sara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:17 am

Dear Adil

Just to let you know that it may be tomorrow before I reply to you as I have a long drive today (which is going to take all day). I will practice as you have suggested and get back to you.

Love Sara


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