Looking for me

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:49 pm

I so appreciate your consideration by always letting me know when you reply and letting me know that you need more time...thank you.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:46 pm

Hi Kay,

No problem at all :-)

I am very grateful that you are giving of your time to help me with this, so I want to keep you informed as much as I possibly can, it's the least I can do.

Thanks,

Colm.

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:30 pm

Hi Kay,

I'd like to take another day with this, I hope that's OK.

I'll get a response in tomorrow evening, so Friday morning your time I think.

Thanks,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:17 pm

Yep...as I said...take as long as you need :)

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:15 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for this.
We will look at this a little later, when we investigate the concept of the body.

To what exactly would it “feel strong and convincing”? Is that not just an arising thought?
There is a thought element, but in my experience, there seems to be a visceral sense of my existence, that’s how it feels strong and convincing. I can’t place that feeling of existence, except to say that it seems to be right here, right now and right where I am. It doesn’t come across to me as a thought, it’s a felt thing, although I am sure thoughts attach themselves to it.
Okay, let’s look at the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
No, to all the questions above.
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
It is a mental image of a cup.
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
No, the mental image is not ‘real’.
Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?
No, there are just words, mind image, etc.
"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
I struggled with this a bit at first, but if I take it back to bare bones, thoughts of what a cup is, does, is made from, etc. They do not point to colour, smell, sensation or sound. They point to a conceptual understanding of the function of a cup, which is thought.
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Yes, following on from the last answer, I can see this. Thoughts are conceptual overlays on AE for communication, analysis, etc. purposes. Much of which is made up perception or fantasy.
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
Overall, I got a lot of pure imagination, or AE interpreted through the lens of my apparent filters e.g. preferences, etc. I say ‘my’ loosely there, as I can’t point to the me that is doing it. They seem to happen though as thoughts, and somehow they are claimed as mine.

One thing that stood out. Yesterday I had some concerns about something at work. I noticed how thoughts arose, and feelings of annoyance and anxiety were generated which kept me awake in my bed. I can see that there is something that I believe is my ‘self’ that feels like it has a vested interest in outcomes related to this. I know this from the perceived afflictions to the self which seem to cause the thoughts and feelings. When I look at this, I can see that thoughts and imagined fantasy are generating this, but I can’t see the thing that seems to be afflicted, the ‘me’. However, the feelings are real, as I feel them. This implies that I somehow believe something called 'me', could be hurt, etc. How do I separate this out so I can see that this thing I believe is ‘me’, experiencing anxiety, etc., is based on imagined fantasy of reality, and is not real?
You don’t think so…or did you LOOK? When a sound appears….are you not aware of it instantly? Do you need thought to tell you that a sound has appeared? Look and see if the same is true for colour, smell, taste, sensation and thought. Let me know what you find.
I didn’t phrase that very well, I meant that it is clear, I don’t need a thought to appear to tell me about a thought, colour, taste, etc.
Yes…so since there is no division between the knowing of/as thought, would there be a dividing line between the knowing of/as colour, smell, taste, sensation and sound?
No, it would be in the same boat. Smell happens at the same time as smelling, taste happens at the same time as tasting, etc.
And where is this “feeling exactly?
It’s the same as that feeling of existence that I seem to tie my ‘self’ too.
Does the “feeling” itself suggest in any way that it is focus/attention or that it knows anything about ‘focus/attention?
I can’t say it does in any direct way, it’s just a feeling. It seems that thought arises and suggests something, focus on A or B. The attention drifts and then it goes back to A or B from time to time. Thought rises up and claims that to be its action, that it happened under its influence. However, I can’t say that for sure, these things seem to happen in a pattern that makes it easy to assume thought is directing the attention, but thought could just as easily be jumping in at the right time to claim ownership.
Is it an actual body sensation, or it simply a thought/idea?
LOOK again and check and let me know how you go.
It seems to be more a feeling, so a body sensation. It seems to be what I associate my existence with, that feeling of existence, or being. I know that is a bit vague, but it is hard to put my finger on. It feels like me, right here, right now. Of course, it is difficult to point out where that is, but it feels internal as opposed to out in front of where I believe ‘me’ to be.
How would this be known without thought?
True, with no capacity to think, this could not be articulated in that way. I assume attention would still be there though, doing its thing.
Where is this “I” exactly, that is “influencing”? Describe this “I” in precise detail and tell me where it is located. If one cannot be found...then isn't attention/focus just moving on it's own?
This is the conundrum I struggle with, as referenced above. I look, and I can’t find an ‘I’, I can’t point to it and say, ah, there I am. However, there is a feeling of my existence ever present. That may just be the feeling of being that I have attached the label I to, but I don’t see that clearly.
So, so let’s have another look to see you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of. I want you to LOOK very very carefully when you are doing this exercise.

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
No, I can’t decide what I am aware of, I can’t switch it off at its source. Awareness happens.
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
No, whatever is in the view, I will be aware of. I can see at times, that is I catch it in motion, that thought jumps in, at opportune times and claims to be the instigator of things.
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
No, I can’t predict what thoughts will enter my mind.
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
No, black is what it is in AE. I could try and imagine green, but that would be thought.
Without thought Colm, how would this be known?
I guess it can’t be known, if thought wasn’t there to categorise them, it would just be one thing.
So, have a very careful LOOK and see if you can find Colmself in something called a chest or are there just thought about a 'me'?
This reminded me of the Harding experiments, where if I point back at what I am looking out of, there is nothing there. There is likely lots of thoughts about me, and I don’t mean to keep mentioning this, but there is that sense of existence that I seem to hit, that maybe the Colm thoughts are attached to, and that is what I associate Colm with.
What is the AE of ‘chest’?
There is a visual element if looking at it, sensation and sound when breathing.

Thanks again Kay,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:37 am

Hi Colm,

What a wonderful post to read! I can see the LOOKING you do and that you bring your sticking points to be looked at. Once again...take all the time you need to do these exercises.
To what exactly would it “feel strong and convincing”? Is that not just an arising thought?
There is a thought element, but in my experience, there seems to be a visceral sense of my existence, that’s how it feels strong and convincing. I can’t place that feeling of existence, except to say that it seems to be right here, right now and right where I am. It doesn’t come across to me as a thought, it’s a felt thing, although I am sure thoughts attach themselves to it.

Just do Q1 before reading anything else following. Once you have done Q1, then read on!

Q1 - Okay…so what I would like you to do, is to sit and close your eyes and take a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust. Then I want you to IGNORE all thoughts and ‘mental’ images of the body (and chair) and just notice what AE is.

Q2 - So, if you have done the above, is a body actually known as AE, or is there only sensations which thought labels as the body?

Q3 - So, can you see how the visceral sense is labelled as a body, which thought then suggests is the residence for a ‘me’, a Colmself?

Q4 - So that visceral sense (I AM) is always there and always will be, but does it really have a location? Does that ‘visceral sense’ itself suggest in any way that it is a Colmself?

Q5 – Can you see how all kinds of things have been attached to the (I AM) visceral sense ie body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions, doings etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them this visceral sense is taken to be something that you are not….a ‘me’ as you think yourself to be…a Colmself.

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
I struggled with this a bit at first, but if I take it back to bare bones, thoughts of what a cup is, does, is made from, etc. They do not point to colour, smell, sensation or sound. They point to a conceptual understanding of the function of a cup, which is thought.
Lovely yes…love the way you took it back to bare bones. Without thought how could it be known as being a cup etc! We are no denying that there is something appearing…but what we are looking at is to see if it is ‘made from’ anything else but experience itself. So thought points to colour and overlays it with label ‘cup’ and then overlays it further by describing the cups function.
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
Overall, I got a lot of pure imagination, or AE interpreted through the lens of my apparent filters e.g. preferences, etc. I say ‘my’ loosely there, as I can’t point to the me that is doing it. They seem to happen though as thoughts, and somehow they are claimed as mine.

Yes…they are just appearing thoughts, with some thoughts appearing with the label “I”, “me” or “mine”. What do those labels point to? Do they point to colour, smell, thought, taste, sensation or sound?

One thing that stood out. Yesterday I had some concerns about something at work. I noticed how thoughts arose, and feelings of annoyance and anxiety were generated which kept me awake in my bed. I can see that there is something that I believe is my ‘self’ that feels like it has a vested interest in outcomes related to this. I know this from the perceived afflictions to the self which seem to cause the thoughts and feelings. When I look at this, I can see that thoughts and imagined fantasy are generating this, but I can’t see the thing that seems to be afflicted, the ‘me’. However, the feelings are real, as I feel them. This implies that I somehow believe something called 'me', could be hurt, etc. How do I separate this out so I can see that this thing I believe is ‘me’, experiencing anxiety, etc., is based on imagined fantasy of reality, and is not real?
There are two ways to LOOK. The first being an indepth way of looking, the other being a shorter method which can be used at any time, anywhere.

First exercise.

So let’s look at the idea of ‘anxiety’. You can do the following with any emotion/feeling. Just replace the word ‘anxiety’ with the emotion/feeling that is seemingly appearing.

When ‘anxiety’ appears, close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?

2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.

Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.


The label ‘anxiety’is the AE of thought and not the AE of anxiety
The sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of anxiety
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of anxiety
The thoughts ABOUT anxiety- what it is, does etc are AE of thought and not AE of anxiety

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?

Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?


Another thing you can do is to do what you did with the cup exercise, when you took it back to barebones. You can do exactly the same thing with emotions/feelings. You can do the following with emotions, activities, objects etc.

Second exercise:-

A great tool to use to see whether thought is adding “virtual layers” via stories about experience, is to replace the thought itself with “blahblahblah” to see if what thought is referring to remains. The more complex the idea, the more “virtual layers” have been added. So the layers of the story, which are pure fantasy, need to be stripped away, until all that remains is the bare bones.

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am feeling anxious”. Does the thought “I am feeling anxious” contain any actual anxiety? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what actually remains. Let me know how you go.
Does the “feeling” itself suggest in any way that it is focus/attention or that it knows anything about ‘focus/attention?
I can’t say it does in any direct way, it’s just a feeling. It seems that thought arises and suggests something, focus on A or B. The attention drifts and then it goes back to A or B from time to time. Thought rises up and claims that to be its action, that it happened under its influence. However, I can’t say that for sure, these things seem to happen in a pattern that makes it easy to assume thought is directing the attention, but thought could just as easily be jumping in at the right time to claim ownership.
Imagine you lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your pocket. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty out all your pockets, still no keys. You FEEL very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there. In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are FEELING. This happens all the time. The problem is that believing in your feelings and not your direct experience will keep you from understanding clearly. It is important to understand that just because you feel something is true, does not mean that it is. You can simply look and see what is true and what is not.
Where is this “I” exactly, that is “influencing”? Describe this “I” in precise detail and tell me where it is located. If one cannot be found...then isn't attention/focus just moving on it's own?
This is the conundrum I struggle with, as referenced above. I look, and I can’t find an ‘I’, I can’t point to it and say, ah, there I am. However, there is a feeling of my existence ever present. That may just be the feeling of being that I have attached the label I to, but I don’t see that clearly.
This should have been answered by my responses to the first question in this post an you doing the exercises given.

So now..you can tell me, can anything be found anywhere that is influencing anything? Or is the of influencing appearing?

What is the AE of ‘chest’?
There is a visual element if looking at it, sensation and sound when breathing.
The AE of ‘chest’ is thought. Thought points to colour and labels it a chest. Can a chest be found as AE? Thought points to sensation and sound labelled as breathing. Can breathing be found in AE? And without thought, how is it known that 'breathing' is taking place in a location called the 'chest'?
So can a chest be found as AE?


Love, Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:27 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for that :-)

I will take a few days with this, there is a lot for me to work through, much to look at. I’ll aim to get back to you Monday evening, Tuesday morning with you. As before, if I need more time, I will let you know as well.

Thanks again and have a great weekend.

Colm.

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:29 pm

Hi Kay,

I will need another couple of days with this, as I am still working through it.

I will aim to get a response in on Wednesday night, Thursday morning with you.

Thanks,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:34 pm

No worries, Colm

Kay
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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:26 pm

Hi Kay,
What a wonderful post to read! I can see the LOOKING you do and that you bring your sticking points to be looked at. Once again...take all the time you need to do these exercises.
Thanks Kay :-)
Q1 - Okay…so what I would like you to do, is to sit and close your eyes and take a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust. Then I want you to IGNORE all thoughts and ‘mental’ images of the body (and chair) and just notice what AE is.
I did this, and AE was sensation and sound.
Q2 - So, if you have done the above, is a body actually known as AE, or is there only sensations which thought labels as the body?
Sensations only, thought would label it as a body, etc.
Q3 - So, can you see how the visceral sense is labelled as a body, which thought then suggests is the residence for a ‘me’, a Colmself?
Yes, but I can also see that it feels like I am here, inside my body, not over there on the other side of the room. Thought is suggesting that too I guess, but there is sensory data to back that up as well, that is I am aware of my body sensation here, not of body sensations in others for example.
Q4 - So that visceral sense (I AM) is always there and always will be, but does it really have a location? Does that ‘visceral sense’ itself suggest in any way that it is a Colmself?
I think I can see this pretty clearly in that the ‘I AM’ is clearly felt, but thoughts of Colmself attach to it and label it as me. It doesn’t have a location as such, the only thing that makes sense to describe it, is that it is here.
Q5 – Can you see how all kinds of things have been attached to the (I AM) visceral sense ie body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions, doings etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them this visceral sense is taken to be something that you are not….a ‘me’ as you think yourself to be…a Colmself.
I think I can see that, but I need to look at it more to see it more clearly.
Yes…they are just appearing thoughts, with some thoughts appearing with the label “I”, “me” or “mine”. What do those labels point to? Do they point to colour, smell, thought, taste, sensation or sound?
No, they point to a conceptual idea or a label of me, so thought compiling various AE data and labelling it as me.
There are two ways to LOOK. The first being an indepth way of looking, the other being a shorter method which can be used at any time, anywhere.

First exercise.

So let’s look at the idea of ‘anxiety’. You can do the following with any emotion/feeling. Just replace the word ‘anxiety’ with the emotion/feeling that is seemingly appearing.

When ‘anxiety’ appears, close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
No, it is just a label, a bunch of letters.
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
No, a label cannot be anxious.
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?
No, it is just a word, therefore a concept.
2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?
No, it is just a sensation, anxiety and anxious are labels thought has put on the feeling for communication, etc. reasons.
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?
I seem to identify with the feeling, so I can say ‘I am anxious’, however, on looking, I can’t find me, there is just a sensation with thoughts of ‘me’ attached to it.
If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious as you did in step 1.
No other random mental images appeared.
3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?
No, it does not.
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.
In the image / colour, no, there is no capacity in image or colour to know anything about anxiety, or to be anxious.
If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.
No other random mental images appeared.
4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.

Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?
No, there just seems to be the sensation, there is also some kind of identifying with the sensation that seems to happen, but I can see that is thought and labels attaching to the sensation.
When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.
I can see that AE is just arising, and I am labeling it. It all happens very fast though, and I, or a belief in an 'I', seem to get hooked into it at times, or at least it seems like there is some element of me that gets hooked in somehow.
The label ‘anxiety’is the AE of thought and not the AE of anxiety
The sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of anxiety
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of anxiety
The thoughts ABOUT anxiety- what it is, does etc are AE of thought and not AE of anxiety

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?
I guess it is the latter, (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about anxiety. I can see this, it happens very quickly in real time, but I can see that AE is a combination of what you list above.
Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?
There is a sensation which we have labelled anxiety, that sensation is known, anxiety is a label used to describe that in conceptual terms for communication purposes.
Another thing you can do is to do what you did with the cup exercise, when you took it back to barebones. You can do exactly the same thing with emotions/feelings. You can do the following with emotions, activities, objects etc.
Thanks Kay, I will try working with that.
Second exercise:-

A great tool to use to see whether thought is adding “virtual layers” via stories about experience, is to replace the thought itself with “blahblahblah” to see if what thought is referring to remains. The more complex the idea, the more “virtual layers” have been added. So the layers of the story, which are pure fantasy, need to be stripped away, until all that remains is the bare bones.

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am feeling anxious”. Does the thought “I am feeling anxious” contain any actual anxiety? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what actually remains. Let me know how you go.
What remains is the sensation, it is still there. If I remove the thought, I take out the ‘me feeling anxious’.
Imagine you lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your pocket. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty out all your pockets, still no keys. You FEEL very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there. In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are FEELING. This happens all the time. The problem is that believing in your feelings and not your direct experience will keep you from understanding clearly. It is important to understand that just because you feel something is true, does not mean that it is. You can simply look and see what is true and what is not.
I understand, feelings can be misleading and so just because I identify with a ‘feeling of existence’ as ‘me’, does not mean that is the case. I have repeated this thought and association again and again over many years, so that is likely why it feels strong and real.
This should have been answered by my responses to the first question in this post an you doing the exercises given.

So now..you can tell me, can anything be found anywhere that is influencing anything? Or is the of influencing appearing.
It looks to be that things are just happening. However, I can’t honestly say that I don’t still experience a feeling that I have some influence on things. For example, I wake up and I have the idea every day to have a coffee. I go downstairs and make coffee and drink it with my breakfast. Cutting this down to bare bones again, I can see the thought just appears, it’s a habit, I am probably mildly addicted to my morning coffee, etc. i.e. there are myriad potential reasons why I want to have coffee in the morning, none of which I can claim any influence on, they are just happening.

However, there is still that feeling of ‘me’ choosing to have coffee, like the existence feeling again. I have hit this before when looking at free will, there is much rational evidence to indicate that I don’t have any. However, it feels like I somehow feel like I am playing a part. It’s confusing in some way, and I think I need to look at this more using the exercises above, to see why I seem to not be accepting the truth of what I see, at least on some level.
The AE of ‘chest’ is thought. Thought points to colour and labels it a chest. Can a chest be found as AE? Thought points to sensation and sound labelled as breathing. Can breathing be found in AE? And without thought, how is it known that 'breathing' is taking place in a location called the 'chest'?
So can a chest be found as AE?
Fair enough, in AE of chest, without thought, there is just colour and sensation. When I call it ‘chest’, then thought has entered the picture, and labeling etc.

Thanks again Kay,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:30 am

Hey Colm,

Before I respond to your post...I think it would be beneficial for you if we looked at the nature of thought.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

Looking for the gap is a way to slow the thoughts, as the objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.

Can a thinker of thought be found between the gaps?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:32 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for that.

I’ve had a mad busy day today, slept poorly last night. Won’t be able to get to this until tomorrow, so it will be Saturday morning before you get it.

Thanks,

Colm.

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:58 pm

Hi Kay,
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.
I started by sitting quietly for 15 minutes as you suggested. As I observed, I could see a thought arising, then fading, and then another one arising after a while, and so on. Sometimes I could see attention wanting to engage with thoughts, or to get sucked in, this was noticed and let go. I can see that thoughts just appear, I am not creating them.

I did this as well, as I went about my business when I remembered to. Again, it was similar but perhaps some thoughts had to be engaged with, say at work, or at least it seemed like I was engaging with them. Something that came up was that I always typically classed thought in two ways 1. Random stuff that just appears 2. Directed thought. The latter always threw me a bit in terms of 'looking', as it seemed like I am directing thought, or thought is being directed. For example, I want to book a train ticket, I then go through the steps, go to website, thinking on things like cost, where I need to go, time, etc.

However, I noticed today, that perhaps this is just attention engaging with a thought that arises. The seeming act of engagement is a type of signal to generate more related thoughts. It always seemed like it's me doing this, but I seemed to see a bit clearer that no, its just more associated, but still random, thoughts arising based on what the attention is honed in on. I need to look at it some more, but it seemed good to get this different perspective on something I couldn't see around before.
Can a thinker of thought be found between the gaps?
No, no thinker can be found. Thought just happens and they seem to be witnessed. If attention focuses on a thought, more related thoughts may or may not arise.

Thanks,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:04 pm

Hello Colm,
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.
I started by sitting quietly for 15 minutes as you suggested. As I observed, I could see a thought arising, then fading, and then another one arising after a while, and so on. Sometimes I could see attention wanting to engage with thoughts, or to get sucked in, this was noticed and let go. I can see that thoughts just appear, I am not creating them.
Lovely observations! Have a look and see when attention is wanting to engage with thought, that you noticed and let go. Did you look to see if you could find this “I” that was letting go, or was letting go just happening?

I did this as well, as I went about my business when I remembered to. Again, it was similar but perhaps some thoughts had to be engaged with, say at work, or at least it seemed like I was engaging with them. Something that came up was that I always typically classed thought in two ways 1. Random stuff that just appears 2. Directed thought. The latter always threw me a bit in terms of 'looking', as it seemed like I am directing thought, or thought is being directed. For example, I want to book a train ticket, I then go through the steps, go to website, thinking on things like cost, where I need to go, time, etc.
Yes, it seems like thought is sequential and directed. We will have a look at the idea of thought being the controller and catalyst for action shortly.
However, I noticed today, that perhaps this is just attention engaging with a thought that arises. The seeming act of engagement is a type of signal to generate more related thoughts. It always seemed like it's me doing this, but I seemed to see a bit clearer that no, its just more associated, but still random, thoughts arising based on what the attention is honed in on. I need to look at it some more, but it seemed good to get this different perspective on something I couldn't see around before.
With the next thought exercise, this will become clearer.
Can a thinker of thought be found between the gaps?
No, no thinker can be found. Thought just happens and they seem to be witnessed. If attention focuses on a thought, more related thoughts may or may not arise.
Have a look and see if you can find a witness/observer of thought. For there to be a witness would mean that there is a subject/object split, which = separation.

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:16 pm

Hi Kay,
Lovely observations! Have a look and see when attention is wanting to engage with thought, that you noticed and let go. Did you look to see if you could find this “I” that was letting go, or was letting go just happening?
This is trickier to see clearly, but it looks like attention is moving of it’s own accord, but thought claims it as its idea to move it / let go.
Have a look and see if you can find a witness/observer of thought. For there to be a witness would mean that there is a subject/object split, which = separation.
I guess it may be more accurate to say there is witnessing of thought. There is the label of thought claiming to be the witness, but it isn’t a choice, witnessing happens regardless.
Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
I did this, sat for 30 minutes and watched thoughts arising.
Where are they coming from and going to?
I don’t know. They arise from nothing and disappear into nothing.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No, thoughts appeared of their own accord. If attention focused in for a moment, maybe more associated thoughts would arise, but it was just happening.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No, thoughts appear in real time.
Can you predict your next thought?
No, definitely not.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No, thoughts, positive or negative just arise. Some seem to be engaged with, some are ignored.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No, thought just happens.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
There is a sense I can, but on closer observation, I have no way to know either what thought will arise or what thought will be engaged with. This is evidenced by the fact that both negative and positive thoughts are engaged with. If I was the ultimate controller, it would seem logical that I would only choose to engage with positive thoughts, which is not the case.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No, thought just appears.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
I don’t believe so. It seems like sometimes, this happens, but really it’s just another thought arising to interrupt the original thought. I can’t claim to be driving any of it.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
I need to keep looking at this, but I can see that it happens so quickly that some thoughts are accepted and some rejected. This can give the appearance of continuity. Again though, it is clear thoughts are just appearing, so logical sequencing is most likely just another thought tying other thoughts together, that’s happening very quickly.

Thanks Kay,

Colm.


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