Looking for me

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:04 am

Hi Colm,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is colour and thought about “apple”, in that, that is what I label it as. Objectively speaking, apple is really only a term of reference.
Yes, without thought, how can it possibly be known that colour, and the shape, which is only different patterns of colour, is an apple?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is a seeming object in AE, but if there were no thoughts about it, I guess it could not be called an apple, as that is a term that has been created in language to reference the object.
Is there really an object there? The word 'seeming' is simply a thought...right?

Please close your eyes for this exercise and just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear about a table or hand and put them aside ie IGNORE them.

Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' ie AE as sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
If I try and be completely objective about it, apple is just a term that has been created to reference all the qualities listed above in terms of taste, colour, sensation, etc. I can see my mind struggling with that a bit though as I can experience all of those qualities at one time e.g. I pick the apple up, smell it, look at it, bite into it, etc. Although I can separate those elements of experience out, the grouping is referred to as apple, or the characteristics of an apple. However, I can see that really, apple is just a term / convention of language, and I could just as easily call it pear, if everyone agreed it was a pear.
And where is this “I” that “can experience all of those qualities at one time”? If you break the label “I” into AE like we did the apple, is an “I” actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for this.
Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
Looking directly with my eyes closed, there is just the experience of sensation of my hand and the table.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
It feels like both. There is definitely sensation, but there is awareness of my hand touching something, the table. If I lift it on and off for example.
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?
There is just sensation but it seems that I can sense the feeling coming through my hand.
Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
It seems that there is no dividing line. I can’t have one, feeling or sensation, without the other.
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' ie AE as sensation?
No, in the direct experience, there seems to just be the feeling of sensation.
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No, it would imply that the feeler is a conceptual overlay, after the fact.
And where is this “I” that “can experience all of those qualities at one time”? If you break the label “I” into AE like we did the apple, is an “I” actually known?
The “I” has no location, nothing that can be pointed to, to say there it is. The “I” only seems to be known by an abstract reference to the individual parts, which implies the parts do not need the “I”, they happen and operate without the need for an “I”. There does seem to be something that registers the sensation, sounds, smells, etc. I can’t see what that is though, so not sure I can call that “I” or “me”.

Thanks,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:44 am

Hello Colm,
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
Looking directly with my eyes closed, there is just the experience of sensation of my hand and the table.
If eyes are closed, then how can it be known that "the experience of sensation" is of a hand and table?

The exercise instructions were to Please close your eyes for this exercise and just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear about a table or hand and put them aside ie IGNORE them.

So can you redo the exercise and answer from what is actually there and not from thoughts or mental images.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
It feels like both. There is definitely sensation, but there is awareness of my hand touching something, the table. If I lift it on and off for example.
It “feels like both”. Look very carefully here. Does a “feeling” know anything? Or is it a thought that suggests “it feels like both”?

Please redo the exercise and IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND MENTAL IMAGES, and answer this question from what actually IS.
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?
There is just sensation but it seems that I can sense the feeling coming through my hand.
And which sense would that be exactly that is sensing “the feeling coming through my hand”. Is it colour, sound, smell, taste, thought or sensation?

The exercise instructions were to IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND MENTAL IMAGES. Please LOOK again and answer from what IS only.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
It seems that there is no dividing line. I can’t have one, feeling or sensation, without the other.
Yes…so what is known (ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour) and the knowing of it, are one and the same ie knowingknown….no separation.

LOOK again carefully, so you can see what I am pointing to here.
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' ie AE as sensation?
No, in the direct experience, there seems to just be the feeling of sensation.
Just SEEMS to be. Please LOOK very carefully again. Can a ‘feeler’ be found in the actual sensation labelled as ‘hand’ and ‘table’? Or is there simply a sensation. If there is no dividing line between ‘feeler’ and ‘sensation’…then where is this feeler?
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No, it would imply that the feeler is a conceptual overlay, after the fact.
Yes, exactly. Perhaps doing this exercise several times until it is clear that there is no feeler, hand or table actually found, but only sensation might be beneficial for you. Many exercises I am going to give you are along these lines. So doing them more than once…doing them many times is a good idea.
And where is this “I” that “can experience all of those qualities at one time”? If you break the label “I” into AE like we did the apple, is an “I” actually known?
The “I” has no location, nothing that can be pointed to, to say there it is. The “I” only seems to be known by an abstract reference to the individual parts, which implies the parts do not need the “I”, they happen and operate without the need for an “I”. There does seem to be something that registers the sensation, sounds, smells, etc. I can’t see what that is though, so not sure I can call that “I” or “me”.
Yes, there is an ‘awareness’ of being aware. It doesn’t need to be labelled as an “I” or “me”. This inquiry isn’t about seeing that there is nothing identified as a separate self “I”, and then identifying with something called ‘awareness’. Whatever THIS/experience IS…does not need a label or need to be owned. It simply IS and is aware of itself, no matter what it seemingly appears as.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:37 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for your that. I repeated the exercise a few times as you suggested, while answering the questions.
If eyes are closed, then how can it be known that "the experience of sensation" is of a hand and table?
Looking at it again, I guess it was from memory and knowing I am touching a table, as I know what my hand feels like when it touches something. However, that falls into the thought category though. So, if I take away all thought, then there is just the experience of sensation.
It “feels like both”. Look very carefully here. Does a “feeling” know anything? Or is it a thought that suggests “it feels like both”?

Please redo the exercise and IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND MENTAL IMAGES, and answer this question from what actually IS.
I don’t think it can be said that a feeling knows anything, if anything is suggested it must be from thought. If I remove all thought and focus in on it right now, there is just a feeling.
And which sense would that be exactly that is sensing “the feeling coming through my hand”. Is it colour, sound, smell, taste, thought or sensation?
It is sensation.
Yes…so what is known (ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour) and the knowing of it, are one and the same ie knowingknown….no separation.

LOOK again carefully, so you can see what I am pointing to here.
Yes, I can see that there is no distinction between the two. They happen simultaneously, the sensation and knowing of it happen at the same time, or are one movement.
Just SEEMS to be. Please LOOK very carefully again. Can a ‘feeler’ be found in the actual sensation labelled as ‘hand’ and ‘table’? Or is there simply a sensation. If there is no dividing line between ‘feeler’ and ‘sensation’…then where is this feeler?
Yes, there is just sensation. I can’t find a feeler.
Yes, exactly. Perhaps doing this exercise several times until it is clear that there is no feeler, hand or table actually found, but only sensation might be beneficial for you. Many exercises I am going to give you are along these lines. So doing them more than once…doing them many times is a good idea.
I have done this exercise with the questions several times this evening. With eyes closed and ignoring thought, memory, etc. there is just a feeling of sensation. I can’t find a feeler.
Yes, there is an ‘awareness’ of being aware. It doesn’t need to be labelled as an “I” or “me”. This inquiry isn’t about seeing that there is nothing identified as a separate self “I”, and then identifying with something called ‘awareness’. Whatever THIS/experience IS…does not need a label or need to be owned. It simply IS and is aware of itself, no matter what it seemingly appears as.
Thanks Kay, that is very clear. I will avoid any new labels, there are enough of those. I understand what you mean though, what IS, just IS, end of.

Thanks,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:08 am

Hi Colm,

Lovely LOOKING….thank you :)
If eyes are closed, then how can it be known that "the experience of sensation" is of a hand and table?
Looking at it again, I guess it was from memory and knowing I am touching a table, as I know what my hand feels like when it touches something. However, that falls into the thought category though. So, if I take away all thought, then there is just the experience of sensation.
Lovely…yes, without thought suggesting it is a table or hand, so it cannot be known. What is known is sensation plus thoughts (ie words and mental images) ABOUT the sensation being a hand and table, but table and hand are not known.
It “feels like both”. Look very carefully here. Does a “feeling” know anything? Or is it a thought that suggests “it feels like both”?
Please redo the exercise and IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND MENTAL IMAGES, and answer this question from what actually IS.
I don’t think it can be said that a feeling knows anything, if anything is suggested it must be from thought. If I remove all thought and focus in on it right now, there is just a feeling.
Yes…there is simply sensation.
And which sense would that be exactly that is sensing “the feeling coming through my hand”. Is it colour, sound, smell, taste, thought or sensation?
It is sensation.
Sensations are unable to sense anything, they are simply sensations. Just as colour, sound, smell, taste and thought cannot sense anything either. So ‘sense’ is just AE of thought and not AE of sense or something sensing something. For something to sense something else = separation. So all there is, is sensation. Can you see this?
Yes…so what is known (ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour) and the knowing of it, are one and the same ie knowingknown….no separation.
LOOK again carefully, so you can see what I am pointing to here.
Yes, I can see that there is no distinction between the two. They happen simultaneously, the sensation and knowing of it happen at the same time, or are one movement.
Lovely. So something cannot sense something else. (Actual) experience is simply known and not sensed by smell, taste, colour, sound, sensation or thought. There would have to be a someone/something that is smelling, tasting, seeing, hearing, feeling and thinking.
Just SEEMS to be. Please LOOK very carefully again. Can a ‘feeler’ be found in the actual sensation labelled as ‘hand’ and ‘table’? Or is there simply a sensation. If there is no dividing line between ‘feeler’ and ‘sensation’…then where is this feeler?
Yes, there is just sensation. I can’t find a feeler.
Nice. This will become clearer as we move through this exploration.
Yes, exactly. Perhaps doing this exercise several times until it is clear that there is no feeler, hand or table actually found, but only sensation might be beneficial for you. Many exercises I am going to give you are along these lines. So doing them more than once…doing them many times is a good idea.
I have done this exercise with the questions several times this evening. With eyes closed and ignoring thought, memory, etc. there is just a feeling of sensation. I can’t find a feeler.
Great….now do the exercise with the eyes open…and let me know what you find.

Okay, to make sure that AE is clear and that you understand what LOOKING is, here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:03 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for that :-)

I had a pretty crazy day so didn’t get to this till later in the evening. I will keep doing it tomorrow re: labeling things as sound, thought, etc., as I experience them.
Sensations are unable to sense anything, they are simply sensations. Just as colour, sound, smell, taste and thought cannot sense anything either. So ‘sense’ is just AE of thought and not AE of sense or something sensing something. For something to sense something else = separation. So all there is, is sensation. Can you see this?
Yes, sorry, that was what I meant, I didn’t phrase it very well. There is just the sensation, sensation can’t sense anything. I see the seeming vehicle of sensation, say my hand, but looking at it closely, sensation and sensed happen at the same time and I add labels to it with thought. My AE covers the entirety of all data coming in at any one time. In that way, there is no separation in the AE.
So ‘sense’ is just AE of thought and not AE of sense or something sensing something.
I would never have looked on sense as thought. I’ll need to keep looking at that. I might be misunderstanding what you are pointing at though. I would like to look at that some more which I will do tomorrow.
Great….now do the exercise with the eyes open…and let me know what you find.
There is feeling / sensation as before and a view in colour. If I leave thought out, I can’t call the image anything e.g. hand, table, etc. it is just a view with colour.
Okay, to make sure that AE is clear and that you understand what LOOKING is, here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.
As mentioned at the start, I would like to keep working with this tomorrow as I only got to it this evening. I want to do some more with people too, as in AE I guess people are just image / colour / sound and possibly sensation. I'd like to look at that more. This evening I did the below examples:

Looking at laptop screen = image and colour
Drinking water = sensation
Hum of fridge = sound
Feeling warm and humid = sensation
Eating biscuit = taste, sound and sensation
Worry about work meeting tomorrow = thought and sensation
Taking a deep breath = sound and sensation
Thinking about this exercise = thought
Hand on table = image / Colour, sensation
Stiffness in lower back = sensation
Hand on knee (eyes closed) = sensation
Raining = sound
Voices in distance = sound
Looking at back garden = image / colour
Bird chirping = sound
Thinking of my Mum = thought

Thanks again Kay,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:57 am

Hey Colm,
I had a pretty crazy day so didn’t get to this till later in the evening. I will keep doing it tomorrow re: labeling things as sound, thought, etc., as I experience them.
No worries. It is best to continue breaking down activities, objects and emotions into AE for a week or more...just so that it becomes like second nature to break everything into AE.
Sensations are unable to sense anything, they are simply sensations. Just as colour, sound, smell, taste and thought cannot sense anything either. So ‘sense’ is just AE of thought and not AE of sense or something sensing something. For something to sense something else = separation. So all there is, is sensation. Can you see this?
Yes, sorry, that was what I meant, I didn’t phrase it very well. There is just the sensation, sensation can’t sense anything. I see the seeming vehicle of sensation, say my hand, but looking at it closely, sensation and sensed happen at the same time and I add labels to it with thought. My AE covers the entirety of all data coming in at any one time. In that way, there is no separation in the AE.
Lovely looking. Yes…what is known ie sound, sensation, taste, thought, smell, colour and the knowing of them (knowingknown) are one and the same. How can something be known, if there is no knowing of it. And as there is no separation…then there cannot be something that is aware of something else…so they must be one and the same.

Labels, however, automatically appear, there is no “I” labelling them. We will look at thoughts next.
So ‘sense’ is just AE of thought and not AE of sense or something sensing something.
I would never have looked on sense as thought. I’ll need to keep looking at that. I might be misunderstanding what you are pointing at though. I would like to look at that some more which I will do tomorrow.
Well, thought isn’t actually a sense…but it is actual experience just like sound, smell, sound, taste and sensation. You are knowing of these, just as you are knowing of thought….right?
Great….now do the exercise with the eyes open…and let me know what you find.
There is feeling / sensation as before and a view in colour. If I leave thought out, I can’t call the image anything e.g. hand, table, etc. it is just a view with colour.
Yes, lovely...it’s just a view AS/OF colour.

Let’s take this a little further.

Here is an exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Okay, to make sure that AE is clear and that you understand what LOOKING is, here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
As mentioned at the start, I would like to keep working with this tomorrow as I only got to it this evening. I want to do some more with people too, as in AE I guess people are just image / colour / sound and possibly sensation. I'd like to look at that more. This evening I did the below examples:
That is fine. Just do the extra day and write examples and when you are ready, do the other exercise given. I know you are looking diligently everyday, so if you take a couple of days until I receive your answer to the sensation-sight exercise above…that is okay with me.
Looking at laptop screen = image and colour
Drinking water = sensation
Hum of fridge = sound
Feeling warm and humid = sensation
Eating biscuit = taste, sound and sensation
Worry about work meeting tomorrow = thought and sensation
Taking a deep breath = sound and sensation
Thinking about this exercise = thought
Hand on table = image / Colour, sensation
Stiffness in lower back = sensation
Hand on knee (eyes closed) = sensation
Raining = sound
Voices in distance = sound
Looking at back garden = image / colour
Bird chirping = sound
Thinking of my Mum = thought
Nicely done, Colm.

Love, Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:10 pm

Hi Kay,
That is fine. Just do the extra day and write examples and when you are ready, do the other exercise given. I know you are looking diligently everyday, so if you take a couple of days until I receive your answer to the sensation-sight exercise above…that is okay with me.
Great, thanks for that. I would like to take another day or two to continue with the exercise and do the sensation-sight one.

If I get back to you Saturday evening, think that will be Sunday morning with you, does that work ok for you?

Thanks,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:31 am

That's fine Colm, you take the time you need :)

Love, Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:54 pm

Thanks Kay :-)

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:13 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for the extra day or two. I continued on with the first exercise. There were a lot of things I labelled, I’ve added some more examples below. I found doing it with people interesting, a little surreal at times.

Making coffee – sound and smell
Drinking coffee – taste, smell and sound
Random mind wandering – thought
Cutting hedge – sound, sensation, image / colour
Waking up in bed – sensation, sound, sight
Having coffee with a friend – sound, sight, image / colour
Well, thought isn’t actually a sense…but it is actual experience just like sound, smell, sound, taste and sensation. You are knowing of these, just as you are knowing of thought….right?
Yes, thought happens and it is observable in my actual experience, just like sound, smell, taste and sensation.
Here is an exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes, I think so. It looks to be affected by how my attention is honed in. If I focus on sensation, it seems more prominent, if I focus on sight, it seems more prominent. However, neither one is really more prominent than the other, they are both there at the same time as each other. Neither is generating the other and neither is contained by the other.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
They look to appear equally. My attention seems to be able to bring one more into focus than the other which can give an impression of a hierarchy, but this can be done either way, on sight or sensation. So they are both still there equally in their own right. I don’t think they are linked. Perhaps it could be said that they complement each other in some way, in terms of enhancing the AE.
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
Looking at it, I would have to say that thought and mental constructs link them. If I close my eyes and focus on the sensation in my hand, then open my eyes, the sensation is still there just as it was, even with the sight of the view of my hand added in. I can see that I then connect the sensation and sight with a thought of ‘hand’, to describe the AE for language and relative communication purposes. That happens very quickly in real time. However, I can see that the sensation and sight, are there in AE in their own right, regardless of my labeling.

Thanks again Kay,

Colm.

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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:14 am

Hey Colm,

Wonderful job of LOOKING! Thank you :)
Thanks for the extra day or two. I continued on with the first exercise. There were a lot of things I labelled, I’ve added some more examples below. I found doing it with people interesting, a little surreal at times.
No worries. If you need extra time because you really want to look carefully…by all means, do so. Yes…it can be surreal to see people as colour and sound.

So, since ‘others’ are simply colour and sound…what is the seeming self?
Making coffee – sound and smell
Drinking coffee – taste, smell and sound
Random mind wandering – thought
Cutting hedge – sound, sensation, image / colour
Waking up in bed – sensation, sound, sight
Having coffee with a friend – sound, sight, image / colour
Lovely! Continue doing this exercise for several days, until you are crystal clear on what AE is.
Well, thought isn’t actually a sense…but it is actual experience just like sound, smell, sound, taste and sensation. You are knowing of these, just as you are knowing of thought….right?
Yes, thought happens and it is observable in my actual experience, just like sound, smell, taste and sensation.
For thought to be observed there would have to be a subject that is observing an object, in this case a thought. This points to separation.

Are thoughts actually seen or heard, or are they simply known? Do you need a thought to tell you when a thought has appeared or to tell you when colour, sound, sensation, taste or smell are?

Where does a thought (a known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there a dividing line between knowing and known or is there just knowingknown?
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes, I think so. It looks to be affected by how my attention is honed in. If I focus on sensation, it seems more prominent, if I focus on sight, it seems more prominent. However, neither one is really more prominent than the other, they are both there at the same time as each other. Neither is generating the other and neither is contained by the other.
Great observation in seeing that attention only focusses on one experience at a time and that neither experience is more important than the other

Let’s see if it is ‘you’ who is placing your attention/focus onto whatever is being known in that moment.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
They look to appear equally. My attention seems to be able to bring one more into focus than the other which can give an impression of a hierarchy, but this can be done either way, on sight or sensation. So they are both still there equally in their own right. I don’t think they are linked. Perhaps it could be said that they complement each other in some way, in terms of enhancing the AE.
Look carefully at what I am pointing to here….how is it known that colour and sensation are different?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
Looking at it, I would have to say that thought and mental constructs link them. If I close my eyes and focus on the sensation in my hand, then open my eyes, the sensation is still there just as it was, even with the sight of the view of my hand added in.
Yes…terrific looking, Colm!

Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
I can see that I then connect the sensation and sight with a thought of ‘hand’, to describe the AE for language and relative communication purposes. That happens very quickly in real time. However, I can see that the sensation and sight, are there in AE in their own right, regardless of my labeling.
So where is this “I” that is labelling?

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:28 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks again for this :-)
So, since ‘others’ are simply colour and sound…what is the seeming self?
I have looked at that before, and there is no self in a place, I can’t find it. However, there is a felt feeling of existence. I’m not sure how that relates to the self, but it seems to be what my inquiry hones in on when I look for my ‘self’. This is a sensation or feeling, no likely no different than any other feeling or sensation, it feels strong and convincing though.
Lovely! Continue doing this exercise for several days, until you are crystal clear on what AE is.
Thanks Kay, I will do.
For thought to be observed there would have to be a subject that is observing an object, in this case a thought. This points to separation.

Are thoughts actually seen or heard, or are they simply known?
Thoughts are known, but sometimes, especially in terms of self-referential thought, there is a perception of thought playing like a ticker tape, in terms of text, in the front of my mind. This would seem to be another thought though, there does seem to be some kind of visual aspect to it. I also can hear words in my head sometimes, say when thinking something through. Perhaps that’s just imagination being utilized by thought.
Do you need a thought to tell you when a thought has appeared or to tell you when colour, sound, sensation, taste or smell are?
No, I don’t think so. Taste, sound, colour, etc. are immediate and just happen.
Where does a thought (a known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there a dividing line between knowing and known or is there just knowingknown?
There is no dividing line, the very act of thinking a thought means the thought is known, so it is knowingknown.
Great observation in seeing that attention only focuses on one experience at a time and that neither experience is more important than the other,

Let’s see if it is ‘you’ who is placing your attention/focus onto whatever is being known in that moment.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
I sat quietly for 10 minutes with my eyes closed. It feels like it mainly moves itself, but I also have the feeling that I have some minor element of influence on it.
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
I held attention on my breath, and as expected the attention wandered from time to time to thoughts, sounds, etc. There did seem to be a noticing of this though, and at that point the attention switching back to the breath. This is the minor influence I mention above, it seems like somehow I am influencing that with the intention to focus on the breath.
What moves attention?
Whatever may or may not be appearing. For example, a car crash happens right in front of me, no matter what I am doing or thinking about prior to that, my attention will immediately be drawn into that scene. This seems to be the way with everything in AE, things appear in AE and some of them grab the attention and seem to draw it in.
Is thought in control of attention?
This is tricky to see clearly. I think thought claims to be in control, or it might be better to say it claims influence on attention, but I am not sure. In my experience of meditation over the years, it has seemed that, that minor element of influence I seem to feel that I have, say of drawing attention back to the breath, enables the attention muscle to be more in my control and so I can focus it more on one specific thing as opposed to another. However, overall, I don’t think thought is in control of attention, probably more like thought comments on what comes into attention.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
They look to appear equally. My attention seems to be able to bring one more into focus than the other which can give an impression of a hierarchy, but this can be done either way, on sight or sensation. So they are both still there equally in their own right. I don’t think they are linked. Perhaps it could be said that they complement each other in some way, in terms of enhancing the AE.
Look carefully at what I am pointing to here….how is it known that colour and sensation are different?
They have different characteristics in AE. Sensation has feeling components, and colour has visual components. That different data coming in makes them seem different. There can be abstractions of course, for example, the colour red maybe being associated with feelings of anger or power, but that is likely thought getting involved.
Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!
That’s brilliant :-)
I can see that I then connect the sensation and sight with a thought of ‘hand’, to describe the AE for language and relative communication purposes. That happens very quickly in real time. However, I can see that the sensation and sight, are there in AE in their own right, regardless of my labeling.
So where is this “I” that is labelling?
I can’t find an I in any specific place. There is that feeling of me, or my existence, which seems to sit somewhere in the centre of my chest most of the time, with a bit of the head thrown in every now and then. It seems that perhaps that is just a very strong belief that, that feeling of existence is me, but it is convincing though.
Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?
My finger is pointing back at me, towards my chest.

Thanks again Kay,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:31 am

Hi Colm,

I have given you a bit to LOOK at in this post. Take as much time as you need :)
So, since ‘others’ are simply colour and sound…what is the seeming self?
I have looked at that before, and there is no self in a place, I can’t find it. However, there is a felt feeling of existence. I’m not sure how that relates to the self, but it seems to be what my inquiry hones in on when I look for my ‘self’. This is a sensation or feeling, no likely no different than any other feeling or sensation, it feels strong and convincing though.
We will look at this a little later, when we investigate the concept of the body.

To what exactly would it “feel strong and convincing”? Is that not just an arising thought?
For thought to be observed there would have to be a subject that is observing an object, in this case a thought. This points to separation.
Are thoughts actually seen or heard, or are they simply known?
Thoughts are known, but sometimes, especially in terms of self-referential thought, there is a perception of thought playing like a ticker tape, in terms of text, in the front of my mind. This would seem to be another thought though, there does seem to be some kind of visual aspect to it. I also can hear words in my head sometimes, say when thinking something through. Perhaps that’s just imagination being utilized by thought.
Okay, let’s look at the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Do you need a thought to tell you when a thought has appeared or to tell you when colour, sound, sensation, taste or smell are?
No, I don’t think so. Taste, sound, colour, etc. are immediate and just happen.
You don’t think so…or did you LOOK? When a sound appears….are you not aware of it instantly? Do you need thought to tell you that a sound has appeared? Look and see if the same is true for colour, smell, taste, sensation and thought. Let me know what you find.
Where does a thought (a known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there a dividing line between knowing and known or is there just knowingknown?
There is no dividing line, the very act of thinking a thought means the thought is known, so it is knowingknown.
Yes…so since there is no division between the knowing of/as thought, would there be a dividing line between the knowing of/as colour, smell, taste, sensation and sound?
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
I sat quietly for 10 minutes with my eyes closed. It feels like it mainly moves itself, but I also have the feeling that I have some minor element of influence on it.
And where is this “feeling exactly?
Does the “feeling” itself suggest in any way that it is focus/attention or that it knows anything about ‘focus/attention?
Is it an actual body sensation, or it simply a thought/idea?
LOOK again and check and let me know how you go.

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
I held attention on my breath, and as expected the attention wandered from time to time to thoughts, sounds, etc. There did seem to be a noticing of this though, and at that point the attention switching back to the breath. This is the minor influence I mention above, it seems like somehow I am influencing that with the intention to focus on the breath.
How would this be known without thought?
Where is this “I” exactly, that is “influencing”? Describe this “I” in precise detail and tell me where it is located. If one cannot be found...then isn't attention/focus just moving on it's own?


So, so let’s have another look to see you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of. I want you to LOOK very very carefully when you are doing this exercise.

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?

What moves attention?
Whatever may or may not be appearing. For example, a car crash happens right in front of me, no matter what I am doing or thinking about prior to that, my attention will immediately be drawn into that scene. This seems to be the way with everything in AE, things appear in AE and some of them grab the attention and seem to draw it in.
This would be believable if there was a subject that was awaring an object. But that points to separation.
Is thought in control of attention?
This is tricky to see clearly. I think thought claims to be in control, or it might be better to say it claims influence on attention, but I am not sure. In my experience of meditation over the years, it has seemed that, that minor element of influence I seem to feel that I have, say of drawing attention back to the breath, enables the attention muscle to be more in my control and so I can focus it more on one specific thing as opposed to another. However, overall, I don’t think thought is in control of attention, probably more like thought comments on what comes into attention.
Yes…”probably more like thought comments on what comes into attention”.
We will look at the nature of thought next.
Look carefully at what I am pointing to here….how is it known that colour and sensation are different?
They have different characteristics in AE. Sensation has feeling components, and colour has visual components. That different data coming in makes them seem different. There can be abstractions of course, for example, the colour red maybe being associated with feelings of anger or power, but that is likely thought getting involved.

Without thought Colm, how would this be known?

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?
My finger is pointing back at me, towards my chest.
So, have a very careful LOOK and see if you can find Colmself in something called a chest or are there just thought about a 'me'?

What is the AE of ‘chest’?


With love,
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
Posts: 46
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:49 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for that :-)
I have given you a bit to LOOK at in this post. Take as much time as you need :)
Great, I would like to take a couple of days with this. I will aim to get back to you on Wednesday, which will probably be Thursday morning by the time you would see it. If I need longer I will be sure to let you know. I hope that's OK.

Thanks again Kay,

Colm.


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