Looking for me

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Takamine
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Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:08 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By this I understand that the self I take myself to be is a conglomeration of thoughts, feelings, etc. in the psyche. All based on the primary 'I' thought of being a separate individual body mind, acting in the world and making decisions about the direction of how things could and should be. This has been conditioned in over many years.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see the truth of this, that there is no real separate self. I can see this at a conceptual level, but the feeling of 'I' is hard to see through. I can observe thoughts, feelings, etc. but the sense of my existence at the center of that is hard to see beyond.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that dialogue will help me see any blocks or things that I am overlooking when I try and investigate this. Perhaps there are elements within that turn away from the truth of this, and I don't see how I am doing that. I am grateful for any help with this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeking for about 10 years, with it taking on a more focused approach 6 years ago. I have used meditation and self inquiry as the main tools, but have dabbled in breathwork, yoga and the like. I have also read a fair amount of material from the different traditions and from various teachers.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Takamine
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Asking for forgetmenot as guide.

Postby Takamine » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:30 pm

Asking for forgetmenot as guide.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:48 pm

Hey Takamine, I am without internet for a couple of days, as soon as the problem with it has been resolved, I will get this party started, so to speak! 🙂
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:28 pm

Hey Colm,

Okay...internet is back up and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:49 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for your note and agreeing to be my guide.

I can confirm I have read all the content at the links you posted and watched the video on how to use the quote function.

I'm looking forward to starting the exploration.

Thanks,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:30 am

Hi Colm,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:11 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for the guidelines, they are all fine with me and I will do my best to answer from actual experience as you suggest.

Posting every day or second day works well for me too and if I can't post for a few days, I will definitely let you know. I will edit responses in Word first, and paste across to avoid losing anything.

Thanks for the questions, please see my responses below.

Colm.
How will life change?
I suspect that day-to-day life may not change that much, it would proceed, at least in outward aspects, largely as before. From an internal view, it seems possible that some things may not have as much weight as before, if there is no self there to cling to. But in general I don’t really think much would change, life will continue. Of course, I can’t know that for sure though, and perhaps outward things could change as a result too, but I guess I have no way to know.
How will you change?
Assuming I realize that there is no ‘me’, then there won’t be anyone there to change. Perhaps there could be a feeling of travelling a little lighter with certain things, if the weight of concern of self is gone. I also assume there might be more presence and attention on the immediacy of what is actually happening, without the mind layer conceptualization on top.
What will be different?
Again, I don’t know for sure as I think many things would stay as they are. However, I guess my perspective on certain things could change, as I assume I would see life differently with no self at the center judging, etc., at least not as much as before. I assume preferences remain, but again the seeming weight of things maybe would be less. Thoughts, feelings, and so on continue as before, but maybe not with the same weight or importance attached to them.
What is missing?
If I try and answer that from a place of feeling, there is a sense of being trapped in some way, like a limitation of freedom. I’m not sure how to put it into words, but it feels like something may be missing, or perhaps I am missing something, that maybe I somehow once knew, which equates to things not seeming quite right. Then this results in the effort in the world to align things to how I believe they should be to make things good, which of course never hits the mark. It seems possible that nothing is missing, it’s just my judgments and demands that make it seem like there is something missing.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:55 am

Hey Colm,

Thank you for your clear responses. The purpose of the questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and can even blind side the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. When desired outcomes to expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration can arise. Also note that these emotions will arise during our exploration as well. When they do, please let me know so that we can look at them together.
How will life change?
I suspect that day-to-day life may not change that much, it would proceed, at least in outward aspects, largely as before. From an internal view, it seems possible that some things may not have as much weight as before, if there is no self there to cling to. But in general I don’t really think much would change, life will continue. Of course, I can’t know that for sure though, and perhaps outward things could change as a result too, but I guess I have no way to know.
There would have to be a separate self to start with to cling to a self. There is no separate self…not even now reading this! Since there is no separate self, then there is no one/no thing that is clinging to a self. There is an idea about a separate self, which is simply a concept. So yes, when perception changes, how the seeming separate self, others and the world is viewed, changes.
How will you change?
Assuming I realize that there is no ‘me’, then there won’t be anyone there to change. Perhaps there could be a feeling of travelling a little lighter with certain things, if the weight of concern of self is gone. I also assume there might be more presence and attention on the immediacy of what is actually happening, without the mind layer conceptualization on top.
There has never ever been a separate self, so whether realisation happens or not, that doesn’t change. An illusion is an illusion no matter how convincing the illusion is. An oasis mirage in a desert is a mirage, the separate self is no different. It seems to be convincingly real because of the thoughts, but when LOOKING happens, it can never be found.
What will be different?
Again, I don’t know for sure as I think many things would stay as they are. However, I guess my perspective on certain things could change, as I assume I would see life differently with no self at the center judging, etc., at least not as much as before. I assume preferences remain, but again the seeming weight of things maybe would be less. Thoughts, feelings, and so on continue as before, but maybe not with the same weight or importance attached to them.
There is no ‘you’ that is judging anything. They are simply thoughts that appear and are labelled by thought as being ’judgemental’ thoughts. As there is no separate self, then there cannot be a thinker of thoughts.
What is missing?
If I try and answer that from a place of feeling, there is a sense of being trapped in some way, like a limitation of freedom. I’m not sure how to put it into words, but it feels like something may be missing, or perhaps I am missing something, that maybe I somehow once knew, which equates to things not seeming quite right. Then this results in the effort in the world to align things to how I believe they should be to make things good, which of course never hits the mark. It seems possible that nothing is missing, it’s just my judgments and demands that make it seem like there is something missing.
Yep, there is absolutely nothing missing ever. Thoughts will prattle on about something being missing, something being trapped but thoughts know nothing, nor do feelings. This will all become clear as we investigate all areas where the seeming separate self can 'hide', so to speak.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:11 pm

Hi Kay,

Many thanks for your detailed responses, they all make a lot of sense to me. I am looking forward to the exploration with your guidance. Regarding the exercise:
I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I set my timer for 5 minutes and sat in my study (dining room). I listened to the sounds I could hear. I could see the mind wanting to jump in and label, but I largely kept focused on really hearing. The sound I heard that will be there again, is the hum of my fridge, maybe 10 feet from where I am sitting.

Thanks,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:08 am

Hey Colm,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
I set my timer for 5 minutes and sat in my study (dining room). I listened to the sounds I could hear. I could see the mind wanting to jump in and label, but I largely kept focused on really hearing. The sound I heard that will be there again, is the hum of my fridge, maybe 10 feet from where I am sitting.
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from LOOKING at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the "hum of the fridge"?
In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is "hum of fridge"?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘hum of fridge’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:13 pm

Thanks Kay.
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the "hum of the fridge"?
In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is "hum of fridge"?
It seems to just be known, perhaps through memory (although that may be thought). It seems that somewhere in the database the sound of “hum of the fridge” has been registered from past experience, and so there is a recognition on some level, of a familiar pattern. I think what is what suggests it, is a familiarity with a sound pattern that has been heard before, and labelled by the mind / thought as “hum of the fridge”. The label being separate to the sound.
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘hum of fridge’?
The actual experience is just one of hearing a repeating sound pattern.

Thanks,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:39 am

Hello Colm,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the "hum of the fridge"?
In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is "hum of fridge"?
It seems to just be known, perhaps through memory (although that may be thought). It seems that somewhere in the database the sound of “hum of the fridge” has been registered from past experience, and so there is a recognition on some level, of a familiar pattern. I think what is what suggests it, is a familiarity with a sound pattern that has been heard before, and labelled by the mind / thought as “hum of the fridge”. The label being separate to the sound.
If you just look at actual experience (AE), which is colour, thought, sound, smell, taste, sensation, which is it that labels/suggests that the sound is "hum of fridge"?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘hum of fridge’?
The actual experience is just one of hearing a repeating sound pattern.
Thought points to sound and suggests that it is "hum of fridge". Without thought, what is the actual experience (AE). Is it colour, smell, taste, thought, sound or sensation?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:06 pm

Hi Kay,
If you just look at actual experience (AE), which is colour, thought, sound, smell, taste, sensation, which is it that labels/suggests that the sound is "hum of fridge"?
Thought is what labels it as “hum of fridge”.
Thought points to sound and suggests that it is "hum of fridge". Without thought, what is the actual experience (AE). Is it colour, smell, taste, thought, sound or sensation?
Without thought, the AE is just sound.

Thanks,

Colm.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for me

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:20 am

Hey Colm,
If you just look at actual experience (AE), which is colour, thought, sound, smell, taste, sensation, which is it that labels/suggests that the sound is "hum of fridge"?
Thought is what labels it as “hum of fridge”.
Yes, it is only thought that 'points' to the sound and then suggests it is the hum of a fridge. Without thought, how would it be known that it is the hum of a fridge?
Thought points to sound and suggests that it is "hum of fridge". Without thought, what is the actual experience (AE). Is it colour, smell, taste, thought, sound or sensation?
Without thought, the AE is just sound.
Yes...it is simply AE of sound. The simplicity of what IS...is just that...simple :)

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Takamine
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Re: Looking for me

Postby Takamine » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:03 pm

Hi Kay,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is colour and thought about “apple”, in that, that is what I label it as. Objectively speaking, apple is really only a term of reference.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is a seeming object in AE, but if there were no thoughts about it, I guess it could not be called an apple, as that is a term that has been created in language to reference the object.
The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
If I try and be completely objective about it, apple is just a term that has been created to reference all the qualities listed above in terms of taste, colour, sensation, etc. I can see my mind struggling with that a bit though as I can experience all of those qualities at one time e.g. I pick the apple up, smell it, look at it, bite into it, etc. Although I can separate those elements of experience out, the grouping is referred to as apple, or the characteristics of an apple. However, I can see that really, apple is just a term / convention of language, and I could just as easily call it pear, if everyone agreed it was a pear.

Thanks,

Colm.


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