I want to know

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LesaD
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I want to know

Postby LesaD » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:40 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That what I consider "my self" is really a construct of the mind built over a lifetime, based on some biology, conditioning, and experiences. It's a personality or set of personalities. It's not an actual independent thing.

What are you looking for at LU?
A deep, lasting understanding and experience of what this really is. To be able to stop seeking and just live life. I have an intuitive sense that "I'm not" and have an intellectual idea of what that is, but little recognizable experience of it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity, refocus on what is real and away from illusion. Guidance to realize what false beliefs are keeping me stuck in the illusion. Loved Goran Buckland's way of gradually taking down the walls of illusion, and having the reader "proving" it to themselves along the way.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Many years of spiritual seeking. Have listened to Alan Watts, Byron Katie, Eckhart Tolle, Tony Parsons, Jed McKenna, Adyashanti, Mooji, Paul Hedderman, many more. Loved "Refuting the External World" by Goran Backlund. Don't do a lot of formal meditating.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:53 am

Hi Lesa,

My name is Stacy, and if you like, I can be your guide. If so, we can start with the following:

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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LesaD
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Re: I want to know

Postby LesaD » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:59 am

Anastacia42, thank you so much for being my guide on this journey. I have read the disclaimer and what this is NOT. I’m excited to start. However, I’ve got a very busy week and may not be able to answer for about 5 days. I want to commit my full attention to this. I hope that’s OK.

How will life change?
I have no idea. I could try to predict, but since I’m expecting something I have not consciously experienced before, I don’t want to guess.
How will you change?
I don’t know.
What will be different?
Can’t say.
What is missing?
I imagine that nothing is missing. I think there may be something here that is unnecessarily complicating my experience of life. But I’m just guessing.

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:18 pm

Hi Lesa!

Welcome! And you are welcome. Certainly take this 5 days for whatever is needed. Thank you for letting me know. When you come back, please answer this…


what comes app with his read that there is no self anywhere, never has been comment never will be? That the self is a fantasy, a fiction, and completely made up?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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LesaD
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Re: I want to know

Postby LesaD » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:46 pm

I’m not quite sure I understand the first part of your question, but I’ll give it a try. In response to the statement “there is no self anywhere, never has been comment never will be? That the self is a fantasy, a fiction, and completely made up?” My first thought is that I have experience of an apparent self, lots of experience. It motivates most of my decisions.

The idea doesn’t frighten me at all. Something here believes that statement is true, but I can’t figure out how it would work. I think of a house of mirrors causing endless illusion, but even then, there had to be an original image to create all those that reflected in the mirrors.

I can imagine that a “self” is part of the operating system of the brain, that’s programmed in when we’re children, a kind of filter that gives a certain perspective from which life is viewed. But that’s only an imagining, not an experience. My experience is that of an individual self.

Lesa

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:16 am

Hi Lesa!

Beautiful. Thank you. That sounds clear. Fear is exactly what those questions are checking for. Fear and expectations are the only things that can keep you from seeing.

Sorry for the delay. I started a new job and things got a little busier than I expected. I did not see the notification. Mea culpa.

So next, see if you're clear on how to LOOK in the exercises I will give you.

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Much love,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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LesaD
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Re: I want to know

Postby LesaD » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:56 am

Hi Stacy

Thanks for the explanation of delay, I thought I'd neglected to do something.

Yes, I believe I understand the difference. :)

Lesa

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:16 pm

Good morning!

If you miss something, I'll just ask again.

[b]Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities
[/b]
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with a few lists just like above & any questions or comments.


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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LesaD
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Re: I want to know

Postby LesaD » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:30 am

Seeing the computer screen and my hands on keyboard = color, moving shapes
Feeling pressure of desk edge on my arms = sensation
Hearing sound of appliance humming in background = sound
Thought about answering these questions = thought

Seeing the TV = color, moving images
Smelling my tea = smell
Feeling tired = sensation
Tasting tea = taste
Hearing TV and neighbors outside = sound
Thoughts about Americans living in so much luxury compared with others = thought
Thoughts about taking things for granted = thought

Hearing iPhone ring for Facetime call = sound
Seeing grandson, Johnny = sight
Hearing Johnny’s excited voice = sound
Feeling of love in heart and belly = sensation
Thought = thinking about how much I miss my kids/grandkids =thought
Hearing lawn mower outside = sound

Thoughts about sharing blueberries with dogs = thought
Seeing my hand toss blueberries to the dogs = color/movement
Hearing the berries plunk down on the floor = sound
Seeing dogs jump for berries = color/shapes/movement
Hearing dogs on floor = sound
Hearing my laughter and words to them = sound

Feeling of nausea in my belly, sweaty, hot = sensations
Thoughts about Candida cleanse = thought
Hearing ceiling fan= sound
Seeing computer screen = color, shapes
Tasting charcoal = taste

This reminds me of a thing I did with a gal to help break sugar cravings.

Have to think a lot about it to focus on the simplicity of the experiences. Haha! That’s pretty funny. :)
Wondering if this will get easier.
Lesa

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:59 am

Hi Lesa,

Good! You have pretty much got it, but let's look at this idea of movement. We only have 6 choices for Direct or Actual experience as we call it.

Actual/Direct Experience

Seeing/Color or Image
Hearing/Sound
Feeling/Sensation (note: not emotions, those are content of thought & made up)
Smelling/Smell
Tasting/Taste
Thought Arising (but not content of thought, which is made up)


Movement is just changes in the image we see. We tell a story called "it moved," But we can't verify that in actual experience. It's still just image, image, image…
Have to think a lot about it to focus on the simplicity of the experiences. Haha! That’s pretty funny. :)
Wondering if this will get easier.
Use the quote function as needed to call out the pieces of the exercise you're answering or parts of what I said that you're responding to. That link is in the 1st reply I sent you and it's at the top of the forum posts with a video on how it works.

Yes, it's a new kind of awareness to LOOK & actually SEE, rather than rely on habits of story telling that we were taught. The point of each exercise is to look. It is looking that will bring what you're after.

So, let's look at another exercise.

Fruit Exercise

This exercise will help you distinguish between thought arising and the content of thought.

Have a piece of fruit handy, or something that you like to eat.

For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating the fruit…..feel the sensations of chewing, the taste, the texture, the fragrance, hear the crunching sound that the chewing makes. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of fruit as much as you can.

Then for the next couple of minutes actually bite the fruit and see the difference.

Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive into the sensations of chewing, swallowing, the sounds and the taste. Really enjoy the experience of actually eating the piece of fruit.

Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible.

Write about it here. What was the experience like?

After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:

1. Imaginary fruit

2. Real fruit

3. Description



Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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LesaD
Posts: 60
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Re: I want to know

Postby LesaD » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:29 pm

1. Imaginary fruit—
It was a pleasurable experience. I could see the black cherries and feel them coming into my mouth, feel the flesh collapse as I bit down, and taste the tangy juice as it spread over my tongue. I could imagine the fruit going down my throat when I swallowed.
2. Real fruit—
This was a far more 3-D experience, which surprised me because I thought the imagined experience was pretty “real”. There were aspects to the real fruit experience that were unexpected, like the round, smooth, taut surface of the cherry skins. The taste was far more tart, varied, and exciting than the imagined taste; and the pucker from my mouth, along with the squirting of saliva, was much more obvious. The swallowing was also more tactile and full of different sensations than I imagined, including slippery, chunky sensations and remnants of juice and flesh a the back of my mouth.
3. Description—
sweet, tart, juicy, floral, sour, fragrant, alive.
What I noticed when comparing the three--
When I imagined eating the cherry, I enjoyed the experience, but in comparison to the real cherry, it was quite flat and lifeless. I probably would have enjoyed it if I were starving and trying to hold on until I could eat, but otherwise it was kind of dull. Eating the real cherry was a sensual delight! The fruit was ripe and a little soft and gave just a bit when I put it in my mouth—not much smell at first. My teeth bit into it and there was an explosion of taste and smell—tart, sweet, fleshy, juicy spilling into all the low parts of my mouth. My teeth were aware, my tongue was aware, my tastebuds sprang to life. The descriptions of the taste and smell went back to the rather bland, in comparison to the real experience. What I noticed was that no matter how involved or engaged in thinking about something, its nothing like the real experience. This really surprised me as I’ve always heard the brain can’t tell the difference.
I’m not sure what you mean by using the quotes. Sorry :( Not clear about when you want them... Do you just want them when I'm asking questions or making comments, but not when I'm responding to your instructions? I couldn't find any vide about it. Let me know if I did what you're expecting.
Lesa

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 am

Hi Lesa

First. the video on the quote function, but you seem to have used it.

You only need to use it when you quote from an exercise or a previous post.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660&p=12593#p12593

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:52 am

Okay, Lesa,
What I noticed was that no matter how involved or engaged in thinking about something, its nothing like the real experience. This really surprised me as I’ve always heard the brain can’t tell the difference.
Okay, so, yes, exactly "it's nothing like the real experience." Sure, imagining eating a lemon triggers salivation, but this is ... more than that. Different.

Seeing no self is not a description & not imagination.

That's how we do the exercises, too. No description. No imagination. Reply only with Actual/ Direct Experience.

I'll post another exercise either later this evening or tomorrow.

Any questions?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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LesaD
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: I want to know

Postby LesaD » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:32 am

Hi Stacy

My only question, and you might answer this later, is about your statement
This exercise will help you distinguish between thought arising and the content of thought.
Are you saying that imagination and descriptions are not thought arising, but the content of thought? I’m confused, and maybe getting ahead of myself here, but I’m in the middle of a very heated political argument with my sister and find myself wondering how much of it is motivated by my expectations and memory about the subject and how much would “arise” naturally. It may not even be important to know, but I can't help wondering.

Thanks, you're a peach!
Lesa

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Anastacia42
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Re: I want to know

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:17 pm

Good morning!

I'm in Colorado in the US. And you?
find myself wondering how much of it is motivated by my expectations and memory about the subject and how much would “arise” naturally.
This next exercise will help answer your question. And yes, it applies to all thought, including heated political debates with your sister. While it's good to focus on the simple exercises, the exercises apply equally to all thought. Soon you'll be able to tell *me* how what you're learning here applies to other situations.

[u]Cup Exercise[/u]

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:

(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a "cup"

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind.

See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?

Can you pour tea into it?

Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real" cup or just an image of a cup?

Is there an appearing mental image?

Is the content of the mental image (the cup) "real?"

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their "presence" cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not "real;" they are just fantasies.

Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.

Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Be sure to quote each question & then write your answers, not quoted, under each one. It will help me to follow what you've written. I will do the same for you.

You're a peach, too! (takes one to know one) & I'm imagining you might be in the South in the US. ;)

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


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