Take me away

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Bengo
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Take me away

Postby Bengo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:02 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Nonduality experienced.

What are you looking for at LU?
Nonduality experienced rather than grasped intellectually. The realization that there is no I and separate self. An exchange of thoughts and words about no thoughts and no words. Do I really have to fill 200 characters when it could be put in 20 or so?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers, guidance, questions, nonsense, phrases, challenge, help, repetition. Honestly, I am not quite sure what to expect or whether I would want to have expectations about this at all. Let’s just let it happen.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Some experience in nonduality

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Let me have another go at these initial questions:

1. LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

The focus here is on the seeing or experiencing, not the intellectual grasp. The guidance is thus about pointing the seeker to look at where he or she never has before, or to open the seeker's eyes to the evident truth that has always been there and was but t be seen.


2. What are you looking for at LU?

I look for guidance along this experiential path, by a guide who sees clearly and is thus able to point the way with focused questions.


3. What do you expect from a guided conversation?

A back and forth between seeker and guide in the form of questions-answers, to resemble a journey together, and unity eventually. Experiencing that guide and seeker are one really.


4. What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have had realizations over the past few years of seeking and deconstruction. While I feel the truth underneath, I still struggle at times to discern the knowing and experiencing from the intellectual grasping. That creates confusion and blurs my capacity to see clearly and unwaveringly.


5. In a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

Oh, I'm ready to question all I see and belief:10

Please help take me away for good.

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Vivien
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Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:38 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:39 am

Dear Vivien

This is Ben. Thanks a lot for your kind offer of guidance.

I have read and fully accept the guidelines and disclaimer. I have no particular expectations and my only intent is to gratefully accept your guidance and pointers.

I am not very wordy but shall try to express myself as well as I can.
How will Life change?

Life should not be influenced by my perception of it, which seems to fluctuate so much, even in the short span of time of writing this sentence. Therefore I would not expect Life to change at all, unless it were nothing but the reflection of me inside projected outward (a learned concept). I am trying to look at this hypothesis right now, but I don't seem to be able to get a grip. I seem to feel that it could be either way. I feel I don't know how to feel really. (And when I start thinking it gets worse: e.g. I am travelling right now, as the consequence of a deliberate decision I took, influencing my life as a consequence, in terms of where I am and who I encounter. Am I the doer thus, one of the causes, determinants of the effects I clearly seem to perceive? I'm here right now, not there)
How will you change?

I seem to change all the time superficially, searching while rejecting all that appears blatantly fake, but with a clear feeling about a deep anchor of Self that is unmoving yet hidden beneath, not quite accessible. My intent is to realize unfettered and unwavering access to who I am and stay there, whatever may be.
What will be different?
I will not be carried away by all the implications of wearing this unbearable mantel of conditioning and all the pointless reactions that come with it. To enjoy instead the many blessings I am fortunate to have been given, so many indeed. Be immensely grateful instead. Full of energy to share with who's around me (who's not?) instead of eating up my on, very pointlessly so.
What is missing?
Coherence. Courage. Determination. Nothing really. Seeing.

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Vivien
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Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:02 am

Hi Ben,
Thanks a lot for your kind offer of guidance.
You are welcome :)
I am not very wordy but shall try to express myself as well as I can.
Yes, please do so. Your written words here will be the only think I can work with, and I will reply and ask questions based on your comments.

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
My intent is to realize unfettered and unwavering access to who I am and stay there, whatever may be.
This above comment assumes that there are 2 selves, one is the separate self, and the other is the real, true Self (with capital S). So when the separate self has seen through, only the true Self remains, what I really am.

But this cannot be further from the truth. There are NO 2 selves there. There is no real Self what could remain after seeing through the separate self. The notion of the true/real Self is just a desire on behalf of the separate self. There is no amount of selves. Not 2 (self + Self), not 1 (Self), but zero (no self at all).

When the self has seen through, there will be nothing left to identify with and say: “this is what I really am”.
I will not be carried away by all the implications of wearing this unbearable mantel of conditioning and all the pointless reactions that come with it.
There are lots of misunderstanding about awakening out there. In Buddhism, they describe the process of awakening in four stages. Awakening starts with ‘stream entry’, which is the result of seeing that there is no inherently existing self as an agency. This seeing cannot be taken away. However, the illusion still can be taken as a reality, and sometimes it could seem as if there is still a separate self. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there. As someone goes through the stage of awakening, this sense of self gets weaker and weaker, but it dissolves only at the final stage. So with the first stage (where we usually guide to here at LU), might bring some or lots of relief, and lessening of suffering, but the sense of self after stream entry still can arise (and arises in almost all cases). But there is a difference between the ‘sense of self’ and believing in the inherent existence of a self. But although, seeing that the self is just an illusion cannot be taken away, moments of ‘delusion’ still happen, but after further looking it’s easy to see that there is no self to cling to.

For many, there is an expectation that the sense of self will be gone completely, never asserting itself ever again. But this is not the case. Due to a lifetime of conditioning, self-constructs still arise out of habit. It needs time and lots of further looking for it to gradually dissolve.
To enjoy instead the many blessings I am fortunate to have been given, so many indeed. Be immensely grateful instead. Full of energy to share with who's around me (who's not?) instead of eating up my on, very pointlessly so.
Seeing through the self is not about becoming a better version of myself, who is more grateful and full of energy. These wishes are all based on the belief that there is a self who could be improved and be better in one way or another.

Happiness, gratefulness, being full of energy are states, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
Nonduality experienced rather than grasped intellectually.
And what do you think, how will you be able to recognize if/when nonduality is experienced?
A back and forth between seeker and guide in the form of questions-answers, to resemble a journey together, and unity eventually. Experiencing that guide and seeker are one really.
What do you mean by unity? Unity of what exactly?
What do you mean exactly that ‘experiencing that guide and seeker are one’?
Please help take me away for good.
Take you away? There is already no you there. So nothing can be taken away. There could be only the recognition that there has never ever been a you there.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:28 am

Dear Vivien
Can we agree on these?
Sure thing and I understand that this is key. I'm not currently following any teachings and I shall give my best trying not to be influenced too much by past readings/acquired concepts. However, mind tends to come in with a voice over, which will be interfering at times, but which I need not listen to for my answers.
Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
I felt that some comments are helpful and clarifying (more about that in my answers below) and others are even more fundamentally pointing to the truth (since an "awakening episode" 5 years ago I have had a clear sense of what does. I have had that feeling towards other pointers before, but those are of no direct relevance to our dialogue).

So it seems that I need to look for truth myself and that's why I am here (for help, not "truth" as such. BTW: truth, reality, etc are all the same to me, terminologically.)
Was there any resistance to any of it?
I noticed some relaxation in my body, no resistance really. No self, no problem, it seems. Maybe I'm just not getting it, or I don't mind at all losing a self I have tired of ;) But then, I feel that I do get it. Will you help me find out whether or not that is so (and compel me to look for it myself)?
And what do you think, how will you be able to recognize if/when nonduality is experienced?
It will feel as if there is nothing to really strife for. A deep sense of relaxation, peace, appreciation of the beauty and simplicity of everything that is. A sense of creation, love, extension.

All this may well be facing a superimposed, seemingly thick layer of conditioning and all the struggles of daily life, which likely keep coming up for quite some time. When "awaking" is abrupt, living with this old layer can be tough and confusing, quite a struggle. Hence the experience is one of things continuously presenting themselves, to be confronted and accepted in this "newfound" light and fire. What remains always is a sense of deep anchor, a knowing. But it's difficult to know what to make really of what's still there from before (e.g. a job not loved, lots of fake stuff and deception and pain seemingly pervading everything or almost all --for example, the news about world affairs-- and thus the question of whether all this can possibly be real or has to be a mere illusion. I just looked: it sure seems real but the very same moment I look at it it seems to dissipate, vanish. Put differently, it seems to be there as long as it's not closely looked at. Looking closer, however, it's not being replaced by anything else, so I'm left with what is. This seems, just seems, to vary according to whether and how I look at it.
[What do you mean by unity? Unity of what exactly?
What do you mean exactly that ‘experiencing that guide and seeker are one’?
Essentially, I meant to describe the insight/sensation that there is no self, hence unity implied. That's all. In my encounter with people I often experience such unity, that I and s/he are but the same experience, deep down. (This includes situations that are less pleasant and make me feel just annoyed and frustrated, still it's a shared experience).

To an extent, this seems to be about wording things. For example, when I mentioned in my previous post about accessing my Self, and you replied No Self, the two are the same to me just put differently, when considered that self to me means illusory and Self means unity, oneness, truth, no separation. Again, I'm not so good with words and somewhat a spiritual analphabet, so I use them interchangeably.

Of course, I am referring here to wording only, not experience, as I am not sure whether or not I am really experiencing the absence of self. And I assume that if I did I would know for sure, so I don't, right?

I hope my answering style and focus is okay. Happy to adjust as we go along.

Cheers! Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:48 am

Hi Ben,

I would like to ask you to read your full last post and then go back to my post responding to your expectation. Read my comments very carefully. Then come back, read your latest post again, and then go back to my reply a second time.

So read both of them at least twice, and please let me know what you find by re-reading them.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:13 am

It seems that:
1) I do have expectations, largely based on previous experience and learning. This is a hindrance.
2) I do not see through the self, obviously, and it's not just a matter of wording things differently but one of process, approach

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Vivien
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Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:25 am

Hi Ben,
1) I do have expectations, largely based on previous experience and learning. This is a hindrance.
Yes, that’s one of the reasons why I asked you to read your comments again. Some of your expectations are huge and unrealistic.
since an "awakening episode" 5 years ago
All right. So you had a peak experience, which was a STATE. And states come and go, they are not permanent. But seeing through the self is NOT a state. So it’s very important that you don’t compare whatever will be seen with this experience.

You won’t get this experience back as a permanent state for the rest of your life. You have to accept it, and be open to see what seeing through the self is really about. Can you do that?
Maybe I'm just not getting it, or I don't mind at all losing a self I have tired of ;)
This is another point why I asked to re-read my previous comment. You are talking as if there were a self that could be lost. But ALREADY there is NO self at all. There has never been a self there.

So the self cannot be lost. It only can be recognized that there has never been a self there in the first place. Can you see the difference?
But then, I feel that I do get it. Will you help me find out whether or not that is so (and compel me to look for it myself)?
Of course, I am referring here to wording only, not experience, as I am not sure whether or not I am really experiencing the absence of self. And I assume that if I did I would know for sure, so I don't, right?
Seeing no-self is not an intellectual thing. It has to be seen experientially. And when it’s clearly seen then there is no doubt that it has been seen. This is what we will be working on with our investigation.
V: And what do you think, how will you be able to recognize if/when nonduality is experienced?
B: It will feel as if there is nothing to really strife for. A deep sense of relaxation, peace, appreciation of the beauty and simplicity of everything that is. A sense of creation, love, extension.
And this comment is the main reason why I asked you to re-read my previous post. These expectations are HUGE and unrealistic.

deep sense of relaxation = state
peace = state
appreciation of beauty = state
sense of creation = state
love = state
extension = state

These are ALL states. And states come and go. They never permanent.
Non-duality doesn’t mean that someone will have these positive states. Not at all.
Non-duality only means that there is no subject-object relation. That’s all.
But it doesn’t mean that after seeing that there is no subject-object relation there will be only positive and pleasant emotions. This cannot be further from the truth.
These expectations are on behalf of the self. The self wants to have these positive states.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (love, deep relaxation, peace, sense of creation and extension). However, this is not the case.

If you expect that your day-to-day experience will dramatically change, you will be very disappointed.
But it's difficult to know what to make really of what's still there from before (e.g. a job not loved, lots of fake stuff and deception and pain seemingly pervading everything or almost all --for example, the news about world affairs-- and thus the question of whether all this can possibly be real or has to be a mere illusion. I just looked: it sure seems real but the very same moment I look at it it seems to dissipate, vanish. Put differently, it seems to be there as long as it's not closely looked at. Looking closer, however, it's not being replaced by anything else, so I'm left with what is. This seems, just seems, to vary according to whether and how I look at it.
The outside world won’t change just because the self is seen through.

And more importantly the illusion of the self won’t go away! The illusion of the self will still arise, however upon looking it can be clearly seen that there is nothing there.

Suffering happens when being lost in thoughts happens. It means that the thoughts in that moment are not seen only as arising thoughts (only as ‘containers’ coming and going), but rather their ‘content’, what they are about is taken as reality. And of course, since each thought is about the self, the self is taken as something real. And this, let’s call ‘delusion’ still can happen even after seeing the illusion of the self. But when it’s investigated, it can be seen for what it is. But there is no guaranty that in the next moment the story of a self won’t reassert itself. It’s a habit of the mind. It’s a conditioned pattern of thinking. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
To an extent, this seems to be about wording things. For example, when I mentioned in my previous post about accessing my Self, and you replied No Self, the two are the same to me just put differently, when considered that self to me means illusory and Self means unity, oneness, truth, no separation. Again, I'm not so good with words and somewhat a spiritual analphabet, so I use them interchangeably.
Yes, it might be a wording for you, however the distinction between seeing that there is no self at all, and saying that no-separation is the Self is huge. Saying that anything is self is the same illusion in disguise. As long as it seems that there is a self, even if non-separation is labelled as self, is still the belief in the separate self. Just now the identification from the body-mind moved to a much ‘holier’ place to non-separation. But nevertheless, it’s the same belief in the self, just in disguise.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:22 am

Dear Vivien,
You won’t get this experience back as a permanent state for the rest of your life. You have to accept it, and be open to see what seeing through the self is really about. Can you do that?
Yes, I want to see through the self. I am not here to chase any peak experience or particular state I had, and I expect nothing other than guidance towards experiencing no self.
So the self cannot be lost. It only can be recognized that there has never been a self there in the first place. Can you see the difference?
I do understand the difference. No self is there to be lost. One can lose only identification with a false sense of self, not self when there is none. Even then, misperception about self will likely keep presenting itself as a habitual pattern, although it will be recognized as such by whom sees no self. All states will be welcome, whatever they are and however they may feel, with the clear experiential understanding that they impinge not in any way upon the no self.

But, Vivien, you asked whether I can "see" the difference. If that means experiencing the no self, my answer would have to be that I do not at this point. Seemingly, there is this entity dealing with situations and taking decisions, such as living here and not there. Viewing this as a mere witnessing entity, as some would have it, or as a no-self, as we are exploring here, appears perfectly plausible, but is not my direct experience as of yet, although I do sense it to be true.
To explore that "sense" and experience no self is my only intent here.

Thank you
Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:55 am

Hi Ben,
But, Vivien, you asked whether I can "see" the difference. If that means experiencing the no self, my answer would have to be that I do not at this point. Seemingly, there is this entity dealing with situations and taking decisions, such as living here and not there. Viewing this as a mere witnessing entity, as some would have it, or as a no-self, as we are exploring here, appears perfectly plausible, but is not my direct experience as of yet, although I do sense it to be true.
To explore that "sense" and experience no self is my only intent here.
That’s all right. So let’s start it.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.
Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:52 pm

Dear Vivien,
Here it is.
B

I am sitting in a bus. Sight of driver, other passengers entering and taking a seat. Fleeting thoughts about destination, tasks ahead. Bus driver comes to my seat explaining that the ticket I got is valid for the whole day: listening, labeling (nice driver). Sensation of engine vibrations, body on seat, feet on the floor. Sight of sun out there, heat, people, shops, street, cars. Some labeling but not much. Seeing wind moving the leaves, hearing engine noise, people's chatter, bus stop announcements.

Thoughts arise about my doing this exercise, writing this down on my mobile as it's happening. More thoughts based on the observation that thought seems to appear with a lag after sight and other sensations. Thoughts seem to always follow, never lead. But then thought arises about thought that has led to the decision of being here in this country, this city, this bus, doing this exercise right now. But I didn't think you, Vivien, did I, so it can't be just thought and it took you to ask me to do this exercise today before my accepting to do it. So thought lags at this to, after all. Is thought but a post mortem exercise?

Realizing that I'm being carried away by thoughts. Determined to get back to AE.

Feeling more vibrations from bus motion now, sights of vast open space, seemingly endless green fields, mountains on the horizon. Sensing the other people around me on the bus. They seem peaceful, thought. Sensation of air on my face and neck. Not so hot after all, thought.

Getting off the bus. Sensation of touch on the way out. Walking, feeling thebody move, ache, thinking too much travelling lately and not enough sleep, seeing wind moving everything: leaves, paper, dust, people's hair and clothes. Hearing voices, car engines, wind in the ears. Sensing wind on the face, arms. Labeling: car, trees, clean air, rich neighborhood. Thought: mind the cars when crossing the street. Feeling body move, ache, breath accelerate, nervousness about upcoming talk, meeting, thoughts, work, argh.

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Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:28 am

Hi Ben,
I am sitting in a bus. Sight of driver, other passengers entering and taking a seat. Fleeting thoughts about destination, tasks ahead. Bus driver comes to my seat explaining that the ticket I got is valid for the whole day: listening, labeling (nice driver). Sensation of engine vibrations, body on seat, feet on the floor. Sight of sun out there, heat, people, shops, street, cars. Some labeling but not much. Seeing wind moving the leaves, hearing engine noise, people's chatter, bus stop announcements.
This description above is just partially coming from the actual experience (AE). There is no AE of listening, heat, people, shops, streets, cars, people’s chatter, etc.

Here is my break down to the simplest level, what is actually going on.

I am sitting in a bus = sensation + image/color
Sight of driver = image/color
other passengers entering and taking a seat = image/color
Fleeting thoughts about destination = thought
Bus driver comes to my seat explaining that the ticket I got is valid for the whole day = sound + image/color
Sensation of engine vibrations = sensation
body on seat = sensation
feet on the floor = sensation
Sight of sun out there = image/color
heat = sensation
people, shops, street, cars = image/color
Seeing wind moving the leaves = image
hearing engine noise = sound
people's chatter = sound
bus stop announcements = sound


Please do the exercise again and write me a list similarly to my example above. Don’t forget to add the corresponding labels.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:00 pm

Dear Vivien, I tried again. b
Please do the exercise again and write me a list similarly to my example above. Don’t forget to add the corresponding labels.
Bottle on hand=sensation+image/color
Unscrewing water bottle=sensation+image/color
Fizzling noise=sound
Bottle on lips=sensation
Water in mouth, throat=sensation
Gulping down=sensation+noise
Rolling train=sound+sensation+image/color+thought
Vibrating seat, floor=sensation
Passengers' food being served=color/image+smell+sound
Sight of lush fields, lakes, boats, mountains, sky, wagon interior, seats, floor, luggage, bottle, table=image/color
My legs feet torso=sensation+image/color
Typing finger=sensation+image/color
My breath in, out, slow=sensation/image/color
Head neck pain=sensation
Not much thinking=thought
Passengers' soft chatter=sound
Korean, German languages spoken=sound, thought
Screen indicating cruise speed and stops=image/color, thought
Coughing passenger=sound
Sun through window, heat=sensation, image/color
Exhausted=sensation
Rest tomorrow=thought

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:28 am

Hi Ben,

Thank you for redoing the exercise. I gave you this exercise to help you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

Now we start investigating thoughts.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.


Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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