Process of Awakening

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:30 pm

This is what I did - not sure if this is what you mean?
I guess not quite ... maybe the instruction was too short, lets try again ....

We do it in too steps,

first write down a list of the continous flow of your actual experience (not a checklist for all senses), like that ...
Seeing the apple
Feeling the surface of the apple
closing eyes
Feeling the surface of the apple
thinking "now it is different"
smelling it
touching apple with the nose while smelling
Thought about how it would taste

Then put behind in the list the lable of the experience
Seeing the apple = image/colour
Feeling the surface of the apple = sensation
smelling it = smell
.....

you can do this not only with "objects" but also while doing a walk, do the dishes .... (but it is then not so easy to make a list)

But your list brings up an interesting question:
Taste – tasteless
Smell -- no smell

Is "no smell" and "tasteless" an actual experience or a thought?
can you experience something, that is not?
check this in actual experience!


Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:09 am

(Just want to inform you that I did not see your reply when I scrolled down. But I knew you had replied as I got email. So I did "post reply" to my post and then it showed up below).

I did the exercise like this.

In general during the day, while doing anything (yoga, walking, holding a book), I could occasionally just let the experience take place without thinking about/ labelling it. At times, I experienced as if nothing specifically existed (boundaries went away especially if I closed my eyes) and some times, I felt relief at just experiencing and not thinking. I would not feel my leg is "my" leg -- it was just a " leg".

It is bit harder to do with objects because somehow it becomes more thinking. I tried it with melon.
Image as yellow immediately registered. As soon as I touched it, my mind said "cold". Smell was sweet. Labelling came faster I would say.

AB

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:30 pm

Just want to inform you that I did not see your reply when I scrolled down.
oh ... no idea whats up there ......
In general during the day, while doing anything (yoga, walking, holding a book), I could occasionally just let the experience take place without thinking about/ labelling it. At times, I experienced as if nothing specifically existed (boundaries went away especially if I closed my eyes) and some times, I felt relief at just experiencing and not thinking. I would not feel my leg -- it was just a " leg".
can you find any boundaries here and now?
so "boundaries went away" would say, normaly there are boundaries?
look in direct experience (not thought) here and now what you find and tell me as exact as you can!

So here and now .... how do you experience "leg" as "my leg"?
If you find a "my" tell me what it is in direct experience!
Don't think about, look!

Its good to talk about this, it brought up these two questions!
but in general, when I ask you to do an experiment, it is essential that you do it here and now. It is not about special experiences. it is just report what you find without judging or looking for something special.
It is bit harder to do with objects because somehow it becomes more thinking.
it is nothing wrong with thinking. what do you mean with "harder"?
it is no goal here not to think. in this exercise just write down the thought.
Please do the exercise again for about 5 minitues about the continous flow of your actual experience as I did above (last post) ... I guess there will be some more lines on it?


Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:32 pm

Bowl of peanuts. Hand picks up one... fingers holding small peanut... hand goes up to put in mouth. Chewing peanut. Crunchy, salty to taste.

I tried to do what you say and this is what I write. Maybe I don't understand.

AB

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:51 pm

Hi AB,

we can go with that, all good, ... but please answer my other questions. We have to go in a dialog, otherwise it will not work.

Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:28 am

can you find any boundaries here and now?
so "boundaries went away" would say, normaly there are boundaries?
look in direct experience (not thought) here and now what you find and tell me as exact as you can!
Boundaries meaning separate body, furniture, etc. I generally am in and out of two states. One state is my body, stuff around me, separate entities and all that. The other is emptiness/void where nothing and everything is and there are no boundaries and separate walls between things. What you say "direct experience" -- for me it is just experience just before mind kicks in labelling/ layering with thoughts. It is neither of the two states I mention above but something in-between perhaps? I dont really know... just saying aloud.
So here and now .... how do you experience "leg" as "my leg"?
If you find a "my" tell me what it is in direct experience!
Don't think about, look!
"my leg" is when the mind kicks in (as I say above) labelling -- oh this is my leg, part of my body, etc. Prior to that in direct experience I would say it is a leg without the "my" labelling. I guess even saying "leg" is labelling -- but somehow, I find "my leg" labelling more "painful" than "leg" labelling. I use the word "painful" to mean something like degrees of separation. I feel more separated from the depth/ the inner when I get into the world of "my" -- which seems to be what happens through just living every day.

Hope I am able to convey. I am not in the habit of writing such things down.
Thank you for your help,
AB

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:00 pm

Boundaries meaning separate body, furniture, etc. I generally am in and out of two states.
it is not so much about meaning, that would be thought.
Look in direct experience (= sensation, image, sound, taste, smell + thought (but not content of thought)) if you can findany kind of "boundaries" .
tell me what you find!
One state is my body, stuff around me, separate entities and all that. The other is emptiness/void where nothing and everything is and there are no boundaries and separate walls between things.
We try to leave the idea of states beside for a while and look later on what it's all about.
For now just look what you find in direct experience. You can do that any time!
What you say "direct experience" -- for me it is just experience just before mind kicks in labelling/ layering with thoughts.
direct experience = sensation, image, sound, taste, smell + thought (but not content of thought)
can you find anything additional? or different?
but indeed you are right, lables are part of thought.
when saying "hearing a bird", then "bird" is part of thought.
But we need them to communicate. So how else would you tell me about your experiences.
So it is sufficent that we both know about that. So then we can use a term like "hearing a bird" to describe a direct experience. Hope you see what I mean?
"my leg" is when the mind kicks in (as I say above) labelling -- oh this is my leg, part of my body, etc
thats right. So "I, me, my" is part of thought?
Prior to that in direct experience I would say it is a leg without the "my" labelling. I guess even saying "leg" is labelling
yes, as discussed above.
what is the direct experience? look, and tell me! can a leg or a body be found in direct expereince? Or is there just sensation? Could it be that "leg", "body" ist thought and cant be found as an "entity" in direct experience?
look and tell me what you find!
but somehow, I find "my leg" labelling more "painful" than "leg" labelling. I use the word "painful" to mean something like degrees of separation. I feel more separated from the depth/ the inner when I get into the world of "my" -- which seems to be what happens through just living every day.
Tell me if this "painfullness" is all thought or sensation or both?
Hope I am able to convey. I am not in the habit of writing such things down.
Yes I think so ... I guess we found some interesting aspects to go deeper!

PS: next 7 days I am on a business trip. I will try to answer daily, but it could be that there are some delays. So don't worry, I m still with you!

Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:06 am

it is not so much about meaning, that would be thought.
Look in direct experience (= sensation, image, sound, taste, smell + thought (but not content of thought)) if you can findany kind of "boundaries" .
tell me what you find!
I don't find "boundaries". "Boundaries" seems like a concept. I stay focused on sensations... so the softness of the shirt (that I am wearing)... but "body" "Boundary" are concepts. Feels like a continuum of sensations... soft shirt, space, seeing stuff (around me), hear sounds (around me)... etc.
We try to leave the idea of states beside for a while and look later on what it's all about.
For now just look what you find in direct experience. You can do that any time!
OK
direct experience = sensation, image, sound, taste, smell + thought (but not content of thought)
can you find anything additional? or different?
but indeed you are right, lables are part of thought.
when saying "hearing a bird", then "bird" is part of thought.
But we need them to communicate. So how else would you tell me about your experiences.
So it is sufficent that we both know about that. So then we can use a term like "hearing a bird" to describe a direct experience. Hope you see what I mean?
Yes I am beginning to see what you mean
thats right. So "I, me, my" is part of thought?
Yes very much so
yes, as discussed above.
what is the direct experience? look, and tell me! can a leg or a body be found in direct expereince? Or is there just sensation? Could it be that "leg", "body" ist thought and cant be found as an "entity" in direct experience?
look and tell me what you find!
Yes I am beginning to see that.
Tell me if this "painfullness" is all thought or sensation or both?
The "painfulness" is a sensation of pain in the heart. I sense the pain and when I focus on it -- it is "sadness" -- I feel separated from Love/God where I want to be always. I start crying.
PS: next 7 days I am on a business trip. I will try to answer daily, but it could be that there are some delays. So don't worry, I m still with you!
Thank you for your help in your busy schedule.

In gratitude
AB

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:26 am

I don't find "boundaries". "Boundaries" seems like a concept. I stay focused on sensations... so the softness of the shirt (that I am wearing)... but "body" "Boundary" are concepts.
:-)
Yes, when looking here and now you can’t find these boundaries. "Boundaries" seems like a concept.
Feels like a continuum of sensations... soft shirt, space, seeing stuff (around me), hear sounds (around me)... etc.
in this continuum of sensations do you find something that is seperated from something else?

So next time you feel in a state of seperation do exactly this: Look if you can find boundaries, if you can find separation.
If not “I am in a state of seperation” must be an idea, a thought?
In direct experience you may find sensations, feelings, thought, but do you find something like boundary/separation?
Yes I am beginning to see what you mean
tell me with your words what you are seeing?
The "painfulness" is a sensation of pain in the heart. I sense the pain and when I focus on it -- it is "sadness" -- I feel separated from Love/God where I want to be always. I start crying.
what of this is direct experience (sensation, image, sound, taste, smell), what is interpretation/thought?
can you find this separation in DE?
what happens if you just stay with these sensations and be curious about it, without beliefing any thought?

Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:05 am

in this continuum of sensations do you find something that is seperated from something else?

So next time you feel in a state of seperation do exactly this: Look if you can find boundaries, if you can find separation.
If not “I am in a state of seperation” must be an idea, a thought?
In direct experience you may find sensations, feelings, thought, but do you find something like boundary/separation?
No I don't find separation in this continuum. "I am in a state of separation" must be a thought yes.
In direct experience, I do get a sensation of pain in the heart or a dense sensation of sadness -- then I get this thought "I am in a state of separation".
tell me with your words what you are seeing?
The labelling of the sound / smell /sight comes after the direct experience. The direct experience is just that and at times, can be raw before getting processed and labelled.
what of this is direct experience (sensation, image, sound, taste, smell), what is interpretation/thought?
can you find this separation in DE?
what happens if you just stay with these sensations and be curious about it, without beliefing any thought?
The direct experience of this is a pain in the heart or a sensation of density (as opposed to light). Due to the "pain" and "sadness" and "heaviness" and "density" I focus and the thought comes -- "I am in separation, therefore I feel pain and sadness... why do I feel separation? etc..."
If I focus gently and stay focused, it goes away gradually. But I dont like this feeling. It makes me very sad to be separate from love/God.

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:27 am

In direct experience, I do get a sensation of pain in the heart or a dense sensation of sadness -- then I get this thought "I am in a state of separation".
can you find any type of connection in direct experience between this sensation and the thought?
We normaly suppose there is on. But when you look, can you realy find one?
The labelling of the sound / smell /sight comes after the direct experience. The direct experience is just that and at times, can be raw before getting processed and labelled.
exactly ... so look here if it is the same with this:
The direct experience of this is a pain in the heart or a sensation of density (as opposed to light).
what is the raw sensation? is there a raw sensation before labled as "pain", "heaviness" or "density" ?
Is "pleasant" or unpeasant" realy part of the raw experience or is it also a lable (=thought) added afterwards?
"I am in separation, therefore I feel pain and sadness... why do I feel separation? etc..."
you see, it is a thought? can there realy something be found like "separation"?
But I dont like this feeling. It makes me very sad to be separate from love/God.
This agian is a thought, isn't it? If not, tell me where do you find this separation in direct experience!

Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:32 pm

can you find any type of connection in direct experience between this sensation and the thought?
We normaly suppose there is on. But when you look, can you realy find one?
There is no direct experience of this connection. I equate pain with separation -- that's how it happens.
what is the raw sensation? is there a raw sensation before labled as "pain", "heaviness" or "density" ?
Is "pleasant" or unpeasant" realy part of the raw experience or is it also a lable (=thought) added afterwards?
The raw sensation I experience is a constriction / tight feeling in the heart which feels like a pain. I equate pain with unpleasantness.
you see, it is a thought? can there realy something be found like "separation"?
"Separation" is a thought certainly. This thought is an interpretation of the raw sensation I describe above.
This again is a thought, isn't it? If not, tell me where do you find this separation in direct experience!
Yes this is a thought and a feeling of sadness. It feels like a reminder that I am not "Fully" united with God. I don't know what to do with this thought and feeling. There is no direct experience of this. It is more that I feel I lack a certain direct experience with more depth -- and therefore I am separated / not fully united.

Anannya

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:49 pm

There is no direct experience of this connection. I equate pain with separation -- that's how it happens.
ok, you see, you equate it. That is a thought, isn't it? It can't be found by looking. How do you know that this equation is true? You cant find any proof!

same here ....
"Separation" is a thought certainly. This thought is an interpretation of the raw sensation I describe above.
It is as with the Illusion of separate self. The people tell you about I, me, self. You belief it. Then you look and find: nothing.

it is like this: someone asks you what color your socks are that you are wearing. You say "red". He asks again. You say "red". ... and so on. A bit later you have the idea to look down to your feet and check it. You see: oh they are green today! Would you then, when the person comes back and asks again say "they are red" ?

It feels like a reminder that I am not "Fully" united with God.
is this a feeling or a thought/interpretation of sensation?
I don't know what to do with this thought and feeling.
what about doing nothing with it? Can you find someone how can do anything with it? Or would it be another thought?

So you see you find no connection between thought an sensation. You find no separation.

It is more that I feel I lack a certain direct experience with more depth -- and therefore I am separated / not fully united.
is this "I feel I lack" a direct experience? How is it to feel that? As described above or different? Is this feeling of lack a thought or an experience?

Love Ve

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SynchroNous1
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby SynchroNous1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:52 pm

ok, you see, you equate it. That is a thought, isn't it? It can't be found by looking. How do you know that this equation is true? You cant find any proof!
Yes I agree.
It feels like a reminder that I am not "Fully" united with God.
is this a feeling or a thought/interpretation of sensation?
This is a thought / interpretation of sensation.
what about doing nothing with it? Can you find someone how can do anything with it? Or would it be another thought?
I can try to do nothing.
is this "I feel I lack" a direct experience? How is it to feel that? As described above or different? Is this feeling of lack a thought or an experience?
This "lack" is a thought. It is coming out of knowing that my unity with God is not fully achieved. I know it is not fully achieved. I don't know what achieving that is -- all I know is there are others more spiritually advanced who are more united with God than I am.

AB

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Verananda
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Re: Process of Awakening

Postby Verananda » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 pm

This "lack" is a thought. It is coming out of knowing that my unity with God is not fully achieved. I know it is not fully achieved. I don't know what achieving that is -- all I know is there are others more spiritually advanced who are more united with God than I am.
so you cant find anything of this in direct experience: no lack, no separation.
you find sensation, pain and sadness. This is, what you can realy see here and now.
How do you know for sure, that the pain and sadness is because you are separated from god?
What if pain and sadness is because you BELIEF you are separated and you don't SEE that all is and ever was one whole flow united in god?
All "proofs" we find is thought and beliefing others (again thought).

And then please look for this I that seems seperated. Look in direct experience and describe what you find. What is this seperated I that can be more ore less united with god?

Love Ve


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