Discovering Truth

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dan8
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby dan8 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:48 am

Hi Vivien,
What the “sense of self” that diminishes when looked at is?
It's sensations, mostly in the head, that are labeled as 'me'. The diminishing is when they are seen as sensations + labelling instead of being believed that it is me.

Sincerely,
Daniel

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Vivien
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:36 am

Hi Daniel,

Guides have some further questions for you:
Q: What the “sense of self” that diminishes when looked at is?
D: It's sensations, mostly in the head, that are labeled as 'me'. The diminishing is when they are seen as sensations + labelling instead of being believed that it is me.
Could you please further describe that particular sensation and the “diminishing” process?

What exactly is it that diminishes, and exactly how does it diminish?

How is that sensation different from other sensations?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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dan8
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby dan8 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:52 pm

Hi Vivien,
Could you please further describe that particular sensation and the “diminishing” process?
It's particularly sensations behind and around the eyes and sometimes also in the chest. They are no different than any other sensations, only thoughts make them 'special'. When there is a belief that there is actually separate 'me' existing then these sensations are part of that belief but when looked at directly they can be seen as just plain sensations arising and passing, always changing and the label that sticks 'me' to those sensations is an empty thought without any basis.
What exactly is it that diminishes, and exactly how does it diminish?
There is no entity 'me' before or after looking, no 'me' before or after the 'diminishing'. The diminishing is that at that moment when direct looking at sensations happens, thoughts that produce the false sense of 'I' get diminished, they are fewer and thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self are then more common. This is a temporary process caused by looking and it does get more effective when looking happens more often but the realization and momentary understanding doesn't change the underlying truth of no-self.
How is that sensation different from other sensations?
The sensations that are labeled by thoughts as 'sense of me' are no different from any other sensations. It's only thoughts that artificially make them 'special'. Without any interpretation of those sensations they are quite ordinary and similar to other sensations in the rest of the body.

I'm happy to answer any further clarifications as needed.

Sincerely,
Daniel

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Vivien
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:47 am

Hi Daniel,
I'm happy to answer any further clarifications as needed.
Thank you. There are some more questions.
The diminishing is that at that moment when direct looking at sensations happens, thoughts that produce the false sense of 'I' get diminished, they are fewer and thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self are then more common.
Could you please give examples of "thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self”?

What are the "thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self" when you're washing the dishes?

Is "no-self" a perspective from which thoughts see life?

What is "no-self?"


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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dan8
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby dan8 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:33 pm

Hi Vivien,
Could you please give examples of "thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self”?
Thoughts interpret and narrate things that are being experienced. So when a decision is being made about what to have for dinner, there are thoughts carrying the arguments and then there is a thought about the decision that was made. Thoughts during that process will describe the process as 'I'm making a decision'. When the experience is seen as it actually is, that narrating thought will not happen or will be seen as just a label. So the "thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self" is rather the lack of thoughts that bring the belief in 'self'.
What are the "thoughts that see life from the impersonal perspective of no-self" when you're washing the dishes?
So now trying to come up with an explanation I realize that it was kind of a sloppy expression that was meant to convey the experience but it's not quite accurate. When washing the dishes, apart from sounds, sights and sensations, there may also be thoughts that describe the experience as 'I'm washing dishes'. And when this thought is believed, that's when the idea of separate 'self' forms. But whether the thought is believed or not in that moment, it doesn't change the fact that it's only an 'idea' that is believed there.
Thoughts don't see anything, thoughts interpret what is seen/heard/sensated and when that interpretation is free from belief in a separate 'self' then that's when 'life is experienced from the impersonal perspective of no-self'.
Is "no-self" a perspective from which thoughts see life?
Thoughts (content of thoughts) do or do not assume the existence of a separate 'self'. When experience happens and thoughts don't appear which would interpret it from the perspective of a separate 'me', then that's the seeing of life from the perspective of no-self.
What is "no-self?"
No-self is the truth that there is no separately existing 'self' or 'me' apart from the experience that unfolds. It's the lack of dualism between experiencer and the experienced. There is seeing of the screen, sensations in the fingers while typing, thoughts containing words that are appearing on the screen but there is no entity in this, only a habitual thought 'I'm writing this' that appears but is seen as just a thought carrying an empty concept.

Sincerely,
Daniel

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dan8
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby dan8 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:21 pm

Hi Vivien,

is there anything further I can provide to conclude this process? Are there any clarifications needed?

Hope you're doing well.

Sincerely,
Daniel

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Vivien
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:48 pm

Hi Daniel,

I’m still waiting for other guides’ replies. Sometimes the process can be a bit slow.
I will write to you as soon as I hear from them.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:38 am

Hi Daniel,
Another guide had a look on the thread and she has some questions:
Not really different at all. There is more relaxation due to falling away of the need to be seeking something and when looking happens the sense of 'self' is diminished or seen as it is and thoughts are seen through more as well too but most of the time things are the same.

The difference from before is that there is a clarity of knowing that there really is no 'self' and this knowing can be accessed with a little bit of looking. Even remembering the experienced truth without direct looking helps somewhat on a conceptual level to lift the sense of taking things too personally.
You write it’s not really different/changed, but everything looks different, does that make sense in your experience?

What has changed since the start of conversation, what hasn’t? – please talk about your feelings

What is the difference in how you FEEL?

How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation? How does it FEEL to see through the separate self?

Is searching still going on?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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dan8
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby dan8 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:19 am

Hi Vivien,
You write it’s not really different/changed, but everything looks different, does that make sense in your experience?
The explanation may seem a little confusing but this is not something that lends itself to easy descriptions. It's more that some aspects of reality are really just the same (seeing, hearing, smelling) but the subtle changes in how thoughts relate/interpret what's happening can make a lot of difference in the overall feel of how life is experienced.
What has changed since the start of conversation, what hasn’t? – please talk about your feelings
There was already some understanding of the fact that there is no separate self entity even before I started this conversation but this process had led to learning how to see through the illusion at any moment and the repeated looking led to better integration of this truth.
The feelings that changed: There is more equanimity even in the midst of busy times at work, there is more acceptance of the non-acceptance that comes from my family, there is overall this underlying okayness with the way things and there are just little pushes in various directions instead of strong craving which would make the present moment not good enough.
What is the difference in how you FEEL?
Not sure what the difference is from the previous question.
How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation? How does it FEEL to see through the separate self?
Like there is nothing else to do than just chop wood and carry water, just let life unfold. The actual seeing is really best described as liberation, it's the illusionary 'I' that wants/needs/craves and thus is not satisfied with the only thing that is, the ever present experience, and seeing through the illusion is falling away of the wanting/neeeding/craving.
Is searching still going on?
Searching for something else than what is is gone. There is no 'me' to get enlightened. I still do meditation for various benefits that I believe it brings but there isn't the craving or the need to get something out of it involved anymore.

Sincerely,
Daniel

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Vivien
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Re: Discovering Truth

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:31 am

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for answering the questions. I will ask the guides to have a look again. It might take a few days. Sorry, this process sometimes can be longer than one might expect, especially when guides are busy.

I will let you know as soon as replied back to me.

Thank you for your patience,

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Discovering Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:34 am

Hi Daniel,

Other guides have no more questions for you, so our conversation will be moved to Archive section of the forum.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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