Help me see.

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matthew1
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Re: Help me see.

Postby matthew1 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:47 pm

Hi Matthew
. It seems like the hearing is just something that happens, disconnected from the I. Its much more effortless than seeing in some way since eyes can be controlled to focus on different things, but hearing cannot in the same extent. Although i can also shift focus on different thing when hearing. Or is that just thoughts occupying my mind?
Yes hearing can be very revealing. As you say, seeing sometimes seems more 'controllable' with eye rolling and so on...( Though close examination can reveal no control or controller of seeing.).

. But you mentioned thoughts. I noticed that what im hearing is just like seeing but thoughts always comes in and explains in words or mental pictures what im hearing. The experience is direct but thoughts distract it, making it focus on certain sounds. Does that make sense?
Yes it does. This is important. Noticing how thoughts 'talk' about direct experience. Notice that thoughts very often refer to 'I' or 'me' as some kind of objective entity. But is seeing or hearing experienced by an experiencer? Look again at these immediate sensations and perhaps also touch, taste and smell.

Thoughts are often about a 'me' that is supposed to be 'experiencing' sensations. But what if immediate experience just happens... Including the way thoughts just appear... but 'self' appears as an idea (in thought) but not as a fixed entity that is separately experiencing experience?

All the best

Jon
Thanks a lot for the answer.

Yeah, I have tried to look and observe for the last days.

I have come to the following conclusion. Yes it seems (just as before) that the immediate experience of seeing, hearing and sensations are not experienced by a "doer", and this is the same with thoughts as well. I see it, but at the same time I have a hard time separating thoughts from the experience if you understand. I mean when I think about it and observe it is obvious that no control is happening, but at the next moment when something happens, a problem at work, a personal problem comes to mind, I feel like there is a controller (me) who is pulling the strings, trying to solve something, schemeing for the future, etc.

/Matthew

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Hi Matthew

Reading what you've written I'd say that you have an intellecrual understanding that there's no self and no controller but a dissatisfaction with what appears to be a self that still appears?

Who or what could prevent the illusion of a self from appearing?

Who or what could prevent this illusion from being noticed?

Is it a self that notices the illusion of self?

All best

Jon

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matthew1
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Re: Help me see.

Postby matthew1 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:33 pm

Hi Jon and thanks for answering.
Hi Matthew

Reading what you've written I'd say that you have an intellecrual understanding that there's no self and no controller but a dissatisfaction with what appears to be a self that still appears?
Yes you are quite right in that aspect. Like I said, on a intellectual level and even in some moments, I can see that there is no controller. Thoughts running in circles trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing (thoughts about the self, how you should be, what you should do, and generally personal problems generated by the mind with emotions as a feedback loop). But after a moment it's like I forget about what I have seen and the thoughts are still running amok and I get caught up again in the self loop.
Who or what could prevent the illusion of a self from appearing?
Who or what could prevent this illusion from being noticed?
I don't know. Nothing I guess? I keep getting thought about that I need to try harder, I need to accomplish something. So in a sense maybe my own mind? :)
Is it a self that notices the illusion of self?
No, that is a direct contradiction I guess. The self can't notice itself, if it does it's just a continuation of the self, haha.

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:58 am

Hi Matthew

A couple of posts, ago you said this:
. immediate experience of seeing, hearing and sensations are not experienced by a "doer", and this is the same with thoughts as well. I see it, but at the same time I have a hard time separating thoughts from the experience if you understand. I mean when I think about it and observe it is obvious that no control is happening, but at the next moment when something happens, a problem at work, a personal problem comes to mind, I feel like there is a controller (me) who is pulling the strings, trying to solve something, schemeing for the future, etc.
Lets explore this a little.

So you've done a few exercises and under 'lab conditions' it's clear that sensations and thoughts appearing just happen? No 'self' 'experiencing'? No 'doer' of seeing or hearing (etc)? That's great.

I get what you're, saying about other occasions such as work. The illusion of 'self', identification as 'a guy with problems' appears, then compounded by feelings of needing to control and so on?

This is the illusion in full swing. In the heat of events its forgotten that it's not happening 'to someone'... Until a little awakening occurs, within the events and its seen that events were only ever just flowing along. So let's explore 'control' a bit more.

Lets look at 'choice' and 'decisions'.

Place both your hands palm down on a table top in front of you. In a minute one hand will be raised into the air but the other will stay where it is. In conventional speech there is talk of a 'choice' between these alternatives. So as you try this exercise watch for the moment of choosing, the 'choice-point'. The exact moment where one hand is chosen to go up.

Tell me how it goes?

Thank you

Jon

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matthew1
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Re: Help me see.

Postby matthew1 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 pm

Hi Jon and thanks for taking the time to answer.

Lets explore this a little.

So you've done a few exercises and under 'lab conditions' it's clear that sensations and thoughts appearing just happen? No 'self' 'experiencing'? No 'doer' of seeing or hearing (etc)? That's great.

I get what you're, saying about other occasions such as work. The illusion of 'self', identification as 'a guy with problems' appears, then compounded by feelings of needing to control and so on?

This is the illusion in full swing. In the heat of events its forgotten that it's not happening 'to someone'... Until a little awakening occurs, within the events and its seen that events were only ever just flowing along. So let's explore 'control' a bit more.
Yes they (thoughts) are just appearing when I'm focusing on "seeing". Then it makes sense that thoughts just come and goes and that there is no control of these. But at other times when I'm not actively focusing, I get caught up in the thoughts and it is like the self is in control of my problems, decisions etc.

So yes, exactly like you described it, thoughts with, for example about me and my life problems together with emotions and feeling makes it feel really like "me" is thinking this and of course needs to control, to solve problems and so on.

Lets look at 'choice' and 'decisions'.

Place both your hands palm down on a table top in front of you. In a minute one hand will be raised into the air but the other will stay where it is. In conventional speech there is talk of a 'choice' between these alternatives. So as you try this exercise watch for the moment of choosing, the 'choice-point'. The exact moment where one hand is chosen to go up.

Tell me how it goes?

Thank you

Jon
I tried the hands down experiment. I actually tried it several times. First try I noticed that first of all, thoughts of my inner voice were running through my mind, telling "not yet, not yet" and all kind of other thoughts as well. Suddenly I think a very subtle impulse, like a very fast picture frame of the hand lifting came. And after that I rose my hand.

When trying the other times, it was the same, except maybe a more clear picture, but nonetheless it was triggered by an impulse coming from I don't know where. I actually laughed a little bit about this, don't know why.

So basically the impulse to lift my hand came from nowhere, but it still felt like "I" somehow was in control, or was this just thoughts grabbing the experience and subtly labeling it like it was "me" that did it?

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:26 pm

Hi Matthew

Nice work!
. So basically the impulse to lift my hand came from nowhere, but it still felt like "I" somehow was in control, or was this just thoughts grabbing the experience and subtly labeling it like it was "me" that did it?
Could be? It's worth exploring this.

For one thing the impulse came from nowhere! That's kind of interesting.

When you say 'felt like I was in control'. explore what that feeling is like. Could it be that it's an energetic sensation with a thought about 'I' appearing at the same time?

Thank you.

Jon

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matthew1
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Re: Help me see.

Postby matthew1 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:13 pm


Could be? It's worth exploring this.

For one thing the impulse came from nowhere! That's kind of interesting.

When you say 'felt like I was in control'. explore what that feeling is like. Could it be that it's an energetic sensation with a thought about 'I' appearing at the same time?

Thank you.

Jon
Hi Jon, and thanks again for responding. I have unfortunately been a bit busy the last week as you might have noticed. I apologize for that. I have also felt some resistance about looking with thought that says it's no point doing this, that I won't get it and it's going nowhere. It's like resistance to the process and to continue?

But yeah, the "in control" we spoke about last time seems to be, like I said, an impulse with visual representation (just a quick flash) and then thoughts labeling them that "I" do something. But I still don't get it I think. It's obvious how it works but there is no shift or clarification even though I see how it works. Maybe I'm missing something?

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:44 am

Hi Matthew
. But I still don't get it I think. It's obvious how it works but there is no shift or clarification even though I see how it works. Maybe I'm missing something?
There's nothing to 'get'. The reverse. There was never anything to 'get' and no one to get it. That's the heart if it.

Theres no going round this or rephrasing to make it more gettable. Who... or better still, what, is supposed to 'get' no self?

The shift that is imagined to be necessary has an imagined 'you', waiting for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Both you and the gold are a story ABOUT a 'Matthew' that should be getting a 'shift'.

You've looked enough to see that there is only what appears in the moment as direct sensation (hearing, seeing and other senses) along with words or ideas that also appear. What else is supposed to happen?

You're not missing anything. Youre currently believing that something more needs to happen and that's pretty much like placing a boulder in front of an open view.

Please write soon?

All best

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:46 am

Mattbew

Hi again

Just to let you know. I'm off camping in a field for four days. WiFi may or may not be available. I'll try to post during that time.

Jon

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matthew1
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Re: Help me see.

Postby matthew1 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:16 pm

Hi Matthew
. But I still don't get it I think. It's obvious how it works but there is no shift or clarification even though I see how it works. Maybe I'm missing something?
There's nothing to 'get'. The reverse. There was never anything to 'get' and no one to get it. That's the heart if it.

Theres no going round this or rephrasing to make it more gettable. Who... or better still, what, is supposed to 'get' no self?

The shift that is imagined to be necessary has an imagined 'you', waiting for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Both you and the gold are a story ABOUT a 'Matthew' that should be getting a 'shift'.

You've looked enough to see that there is only what appears in the moment as direct sensation (hearing, seeing and other senses) along with words or ideas that also appear. What else is supposed to happen?

You're not missing anything. Youre currently believing that something more needs to happen and that's pretty much like placing a boulder in front of an open view.

Please write soon?

All best

Jon
Hi Jon,

Haha, I laughed a little bit about the absurdity about that the self is supposed to 'get' no self. And when investigating it of course is impossible for the self to understand and get the no self. It is designed to go around in loops and will do so until the end of time unless it shifts focus to something else.

But you are right, I'm imagining a shift in my head and then I will 'get it', sorry for this. But it's hard not to the attached to metal pictures in the future, what it will look like etc.

/Matthew

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:36 am

Hi Matthew
. But you are right, I'm imagining a shift in my head and then I will 'get it', sorry for this.
No worries. It's just good to identify any expectation. Do you see that any expectation will tend to make it seem that no self must be a particular type of experience?
. But it's hard not to the attached to metal pictures in the future, what it will look like etc.
OK. Right. Now. To help with this tell me if there is actually 'the future'? (Other than as an idea)


Does a future ever arrive or is it a case of each moment always being Now, the present?

Look for direct experience of 'future' or 'past'. Can these be experienced or is it always just thoughts about them?
. Haha, I laughed a little bit about the absurdity about that the self is supposed to 'get' no self. And when investigating it of course is impossible for the self to understand and get the no self


Ha ha! Yes. We'll noticed.
. It is designed to go around in loops and will do so until the end of time unless it shifts focus to something else.
Well, thoughts may seem to go round in loops ABOUT a 'me'. At least, thoughts may repeatedly refer to 'I'. But consider that f these thoughts were constantly referring to a cartoon character such as Batman (for exame) , even if a child started off by believing for a while that Batman is a real guy walking around somewhere and foiling criminals, at some stage there's a realisatuon that it's a story ABOUT 'Batman'. And from then on its not possible to return to (fully) believing in the 'existence of Batman'.


Jon

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matthew1
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Re: Help me see.

Postby matthew1 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:56 pm

Hi Jon
No worries. It's just good to identify any expectation. Do you see that any expectation will tend to make it seem that no self must be a particular type of experience?
Expectations are just thoughts about the future that has nothing to do with reality and yes the expectations of no self experience is the self that is centered around that experience. I understand that and can see the contradiction.
OK. Right. Now. To help with this tell me if there is actually 'the future'? (Other than as an idea)
Does a future ever arrive or is it a case of each moment always being Now, the present?
Look for direct experience of 'future' or 'past'. Can these be experienced or is it always just thoughts about them?
No "the future" is expectations (or fears) that the mind creates based on memory of past events and inputs from other sources such as feeling and emotions. There is no future and even the thoughts in your head about the future are only imagination happening now at this present moment. I understand this.

You can have thoughts about the future play out almost as you imagined, depending on situation.
Well, thoughts may seem to go round in loops ABOUT a 'me'. At least, thoughts may repeatedly refer to 'I'. But consider that f these thoughts were constantly referring to a cartoon character such as Batman (for exame) , even if a child started off by believing for a while that Batman is a real guy walking around somewhere and foiling criminals, at some stage there's a realization that it's a story ABOUT 'Batman'. And from then on its not possible to return to (fully) believing in the 'existence of Batman'.
Yes, but I unfortunately still believe in the batman (me) it feels like.

But when looking it struck me the other day that when you are focusing on things. Like hearing sounds, feeling in you fingers, seeing with the eyes. This is also happening with thoughts. The focus can drift away from thoughts into hearing, so that your full focus is directed on sounds for example. Does this start with a thought that gives impulse for your focus to shift? Or is this some other thing happening?

/matthew

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JonathanR
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Re: Help me see.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:55 pm

Hi Matthew
. This is also happening with thoughts. The focus can drift away from thoughts into hearing, so that your full focus is directed on sounds for example. Does this start with a thought that gives impulse for your focus to shift? Or is this some other thing happening?
This seems rather important. However I'm not quite clear what you mean? Does what start with a thought (etc)?

Jon


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