High intellect meets high intuition

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:02 am

Hi Jim,
What comes to mind is there are mental experiences too, not just physical. If I have a bad dream that leaves me sweating, then the experience of the dream was real, even though it would be impossible to prove to you or anyone else. Unlike an object such as a cup, which I could hand to you to verify for yourself with your senses. (Not sure if dreams count as thoughts only, so included 'brain activity'.)
Sweating as the result of a bad dream is real. But NOT the dream itself.
Just as there can be sweating as the result of thinking about something frightening.
Again, the sweating will be real, but not the content of the fantasy.

Dreams just as not real, as thoughts not.
If a dream were real, meaning containing experience and not just fantasy, then if you were stubbed in the dream, then you would wake up not just sweaty, but drenched in blood with a hole on your belly.
Just as if you have a daydream about being stubbed, you might be sweating (real), but you won’t have to rush to the emergency with a big wound (fantasy).

There is no difference between thinking and dreaming.
Both of them just thoughts.
Both of them just fantasies.
None of them are experience.

It’s very important to see what is real (experience) and what is just fantasy (thought).
Since the illusion of the self is just made-up by thoughts.
Like the invented character of Santa.

So it’s essential to be able to distinguish between reality (experience) and fantasy (thoughts). Without this distinction, seeing through the self is quite challenging.
(stepping outside of simplicity for a moment. This comment that ghosts don't exist depends on whether they can be measured with others tools. For example, you and I cannot see bacteria or viruses with the naked eye. Yet pull out a microscope and small enough needle, and we can both see and touch them. I'm not advocating for the existence of ghosts. But this point did bug me the first time. There could be some energy phenomenon that we haven't developed the tools to see/measure them.)
This is pure intellectual speculation. Yes, conventionally speaking bacteria and viruses exist. But we cannot get anywhere with conventional reality if we want to see through the self.

You really have to try to put aside ALL speculation and reasoning. And not just in your replies to me, but in ‘your head’ too.

If you want to see through the self, you have to make effort to step outside your comfort zone, from the comfort and safety of ‘intellectual knowledge’.
Back in 5yo mind, that is correct: ghosts can only be thought of...just like any god or spirit.
Yes, please stay with the simplicity.

Reality is very- very simple.
The reason why it’s missed is because its simplicity.
It’s so simple, that the intellect pushes it aside as insignificant, and thus completely ignore it.


This is very simple. I cannot emphasize the simplicity enough, actually. Have you heard phrases like, "It's right here" or "It's so simple"? It's a good idea to take that very literally.
The first thing that comes to mind is thought. But thoughts are real, even though the content of thoughts needn't be as previously agreed. A 'real thing' is something that can be experienced in some form or manner via the senses and thoughts.
Here comes the problem. You believe that something that is real can be experienced via the senses AND thoughts.

Via the senses things can be experienced, yes.
But can ANYTHING be experienced via THOUGHTS?


Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?

Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?


Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?


Please really-really examine these questions. Be very thorough. Don’t rush through this, since this is the BASIS of everything we are looking at here. As long as this is not totally clear, we cannot go further.
V: But I ask that you stop and savour both the questions and the answers that come up.
J: Do you mean letting yourself be awed by everyday reality? Like any object I pick up, should I contemplate how amazing it is for anything to exist at all?
No :) You are trying to make a philosophical question about it, if things exist at all….

Philosophy = thinking

What we are doing here is much simpler. We leave the realm of thinking. We just observe what can be known without thoughts.

I just meant with the above comment that don’t push aside my questions because of their simplicity. Don’t just reply back with the automatic, knee-jerk conditioned thought reactions. Meaning, don’t reply back with your beliefs. Rather stay with the questions and look again and again. As if you were a child, who doesn’t know anything about how things work. With the curiosity of a child…

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

Hi Vivien,
Please really-really examine these questions. Be very thorough. Don’t rush through this, since this is the BASIS of everything we are looking at here. As long as this is not totally clear, we cannot go further.

Don’t just reply back with the automatic, knee-jerk conditioned thought reactions. Meaning, don’t reply back with your beliefs.
Glad you mentioned because I was feeling rushed. If everything depends on me getting past this, and I can't rush through it, then we will have to wait. I will continue trying until it happens. In the meantime, I feel wiped out. I've spent a lot of energy these past couple of days trying to get past these mental hurdles. In spite of this, and in spite of your best efforts, it's still not clear. Not sure what else to say. I'll let you know when something changes.

Thank you for the pointers again. :)

Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:19 am

Hi Jim,

Yes, it’s no worth rushing through this. Rather be slow and thorough than superficially rushing through the questions.
You don’t have to actively search for the self for now. Forget about it.
Only look at the questions I gave you.
Just one step at a time.

I’m looking forward from hearing you. I know you can do this :)

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:20 am

And remember... like a child...

With a child's simplicity and curiosity :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:18 pm

Hi Vivien,

And remember... like a child...

With a child's simplicity and curiosity :)
I’m looking forward from hearing you. I know you can do this :)
Thank you for your continued support. :)
I'll be back up ready to continue soon.
Still letting the batteries recharge.
There are other life issues at play too.
Life seems to keep pushing the boundary of how far can this situation of mine last.
So let me check in with you this weekend.
Have a good one until then,

James

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:51 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for not checking in earlier. It’s the end of a long holiday weekend here and been having to adjust to changes in my living arrangements. I’ll have to get back with you tomorrow or Wednesday. Apologies.

Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:20 am

Hi Jim,

No problem.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:35 pm

Hi Vivien,

Alright let's continue.. :)
This is very simple. I cannot emphasize the simplicity enough, actually. Have you heard phrases like, "It's right here" or "It's so simple"? It's a good idea to take that very literally.
Lord knows I've tried.
ia the senses things can be experienced, yes.
But can ANYTHING be experienced via THOUGHTS?
Only thoughts themselves can be experienced.
Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?
Because thoughts are invisible. They exist in my head.
Why can’t you touch a thought?
Because thoughts are invisible, they cannot be touched.
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Because thoughts are invisible, they cannot be smelt.
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Because thoughts are invisible, they cannot be felt with the senses.
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Because thoughts are invisible, they cannot be smelt.
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?
Because they are invisible. I could only point a finger to my brain, where thoughts appear to come from.

Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?
Not sure. You're saying I can either have tangible experiences via the 5 senses, or I can have imaginative experiences with invisible thoughts. What about the sensations of emotions? Does that fall into senses or imagination?

Don’t just reply back with the automatic, knee-jerk conditioned thought reactions. Meaning, don’t reply back with your beliefs.
This has made me fearful of responding back. No matter how much I try, it doesn't seem to make a difference in not responding from conditioned beliefs.


Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:19 am

Hi Jim,
V: Don’t just reply back with the automatic, knee-jerk conditioned thought reactions. Meaning, don’t reply back with your beliefs.
J: This has made me fearful of responding back. No matter how much I try, it doesn't seem to make a difference in not responding from conditioned beliefs.
You don’t have to be afraid of responding back :) I won’t bite you :) I’m here to help you.

But, it’s very important to step outside of your comfort zone of thinking. You have to stop pay attention what your thoughts, opinions or beliefs are, and just look at the plain experience which is always here, always accessible.
V: Look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.
Why doesn't that happen with thought?
J: Because thoughts are invisible. They exist in my head.
….I could only point a finger to my brain, where thoughts appear to come from.
This reply is a perfect example of NOT LOOKING.

You have a LEARNED INTELLECTUAL information that the brain are producing thoughts, and the brain is inside the head… thus comes a wobbly INTELLECTUAL THOUGHT CONCLUSION that ‘you can point to your finger to your brain, where thoughts appear to come from’.

So you wrote down what you LEARNED INTELLECTUALLY from teachers and society… and you didn’t make the effort to ACTUALLY STOP and TEST this IDEA in EXPERIENCE.

I won’t ask questions about this (for now), since I have to ignore much of your replies. We have to focus sharply on one single thing at a time.
V: Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?
R: Not sure. You're saying I can either have tangible experiences via the 5 senses, or I can have imaginative experiences with invisible thoughts.
You see, you haven’t TESTED my questions in experience.
You were just THINKING about it.
But not actually TESTING / CHECKING it out.

There is NO such thing as ‘imaginative experience’.
That’s the whole point.

There is EITHER EXPERIENCE (real) or IMAGINATION (not real).

An ‘imaginative experience’ is nothing else than IMAGINATION.

Do you see that what we are trying to do here is to distinguish between EXPERIENCE (reality) and IMAGINATION (not-reality, fantasy)?
Because thoughts are invisible.
And WHY thoughts are invisible? Why? Because thought contents are NOT REAL.

Let me repeat that.

The content of thought is false. An illusion. Why? Well, try grabbing one. Trying touching it. Try holding onto the content of thought.

The trouble is that you're believing something that doesn't exist... the content of thought.


So if the thought cannot be touched, smelled, grabbed, felt, then IS IT REAL?
Is the content of thought REAL in any way, shape, or form?

Can the content of ANY thought be experienced?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:56 pm

Hi Vivien,
There is NO such thing as ‘imaginative experience’.
That’s the whole point.
Do you see that what we are trying to do here is to distinguish between EXPERIENCE (reality) and IMAGINATION (not-reality, fantasy)?
Why is it that we said thoughts are real, but not imaginative experiences? So if I have an imaginative experience produced by a bunch of thoughts, then the experience of having those thoughts is real. Take the example you used of getting stabbed in a dream. Agree that it's not a stabbing in real life. But the sensation of having been stabbed is real, and thus the effect of waking up in sweat is real too. The experience of feeling like it was real is real. You don't get to take that away and say it was purely imaginative and thus not real. The experience of it is as real as the experience of any other thought. Thoughts are real experiences. I see what you mean that the contents may not be. The experience of a thought is real.

J: Because thoughts are invisible. They exist in my head.
….I could only point a finger to my brain, where thoughts appear to come from.
This reply is a perfect example of NOT LOOKING.
I don't agree. I did look. Thoughts don't come from any other body area. I checked. There are not in my feet, legs, torso, etc. I'd bet even if I was never educated, the sensation of thoughts coming from the head would be the same. Hearing, smelling, and sight happen in the head. Touch is felt via the skin. Education or not, this is what is real.
So if the thought cannot be touched, smelled, grabbed, felt, then IS IT REAL?
Yes, we both have said thoughts are real even if they cannot be touched, smelt, grabbed, felt. They are experienced. They are known.
Is the content of thought REAL in any way, shape, or form?
Let's flip this around and test it then:
There have been many thoughts in this forum stating that I'm intellectualizing this too much.
Is it true then what the the content of these thoughts saying I'm too mind-based or intellectual?
I can't touch this intellectualism. Nor can I smell it or sense it other than via thoughts.
This intellectuality is happening in the here and now. I'm not doing any of it deliberately.
Can the content of ANY thought be experienced?
I don't know. I think answering the question above will help resolve this once and for all. :)

Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:37 am

Hi Jim,
Thoughts are real experiences. I see what you mean that the contents may not be. The experience of a thought is real.
Thought contents are NOT real experiences.
This is the BASES of our investigation.
There is only the experience of a FANTASY.
THOUGHT = FANTASY
V: So if the thought cannot be touched, smelled, grabbed, felt, then IS IT REAL?
R: Yes, we both have said thoughts are real even if they cannot be touched, smelt, grabbed, felt. They are experienced. They are known.
I admit, it was a BIG mistake on my part to guide you to the direction to trying to help you to see that thoughts as phenomena are experienced but not their contents.

Since it’s utterly UNIMPORTANT if thoughts as ‘containers’ are experienced.
Since the content, which is the important part is NEVER EVER EXPERIENCED.

Since all there is to a thought is the content itself.
Without a content, there is no thought whatsoever.

Content = thought = imagination

If there is anything being experienced regarding thoughts, then it is IMAGINATION. Only an imagination is experienced. But nothing real, or actual.


When we say that the thought as a phenomenon is experience, it means that there is the experience of an imagination, a fantasy only.

And the reason why I regret that I tried to show you that thoughts as containers being experienced but not their contents, is because you CANNOT make a DISTINCTION between the two.

Every time when you are talking about a thought you are actually talking about its content. (but you cannot see this).
And you apply the reality of the container to the content.

You just only see the content, you don’t see the container.
And because of this inability to see the container, I unintentionally fortified your belief that the content is real.

But the content is never ever experienced.
And this is the most important part you have to be able to see.
Without seeing this we cannot go anywhere.

So I will stop making distinction between thought container and thought content, and I will call it plainly as ‘thought’.
(you already don’t make any distinction between the two).

So we just call it as a ‘thought’.
And this plain thought is NEVER EVER EXPERIENCED not matter what the thought is about.
Since a thought is just an imagination, not reality.
Why is it that we said thoughts are real, but not imaginative experiences? So if I have an imaginative experience produced by a bunch of thoughts, then the experience of having those thoughts is real. Take the example you used of getting stabbed in a dream. Agree that it's not a stabbing in real life. But the sensation of having been stabbed is real, and thus the effect of waking up in sweat is real too.
No. The sweating is real, but the sensations of stabbing is NOT.

The sensations of stabbing is just IMAGINED.
There is no real sensation there, there is only an IMAGINED SENSATION.


Can you see that the sensation of stabbing is IMAGINED only?
V: Can the content of ANY thought be experienced?
J: I don't know. I think answering the question above will help resolve this once and for all. :)
You see… you MISSED THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.

I try everything I can to get you out of thinking, but somehow we always steer away from the simplicity of looking at experience, into theorizing and talking things through on the intellectual level.

This must be stopped. It’s utterly useless and pointless. I have to be become firmer with this.

We have to do this practically, not just with an intellectual gymnastics, but with an ACTUAL hands-on gymnastics :)

So here is a practical exercise:

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine form, size, weight, temperature, keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life?

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

What happened to the spoon?

Did it disappear or it never existed?

I don't agree. I did look. Thoughts don't come from any other body area. I checked. There are not in my feet, legs, torso, etc. I'd bet even if I was never educated, the sensation of thoughts coming from the head would be the same. Hearing, smelling, and sight happen in the head. Touch is felt via the skin. Education or not, this is what is real.
You might not see it, but this comment is still not coming from looking.

There is ZERO experience of thoughts coming from the head. None.

“the sensation of thoughts coming from the head” – there is NO such thing as ‘sensation of thoughts’.
Thoughts cannot be felt. It’s impossible.
Only sensations can be felt, nothing else.
So what you call ‘sensations of thought’ is just plain sensations, and only thoughts ‘suggest’ that this sensation is special, because it’s the ‘sensation of thought’.

Thought cannot be felt.
Thoughts cannot be seen.
Thoughts cannot be touched.
Thoughts cannot be experienced in any way.

It’s utter impossibility to ‘feel the sensation coming out of the head’.

But SEEING this requires a serious looking. What you currently don’t know how to do. So you cannot see this (yet).
But we cannot look at this yet, since we cannot jump around from one topic to another.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:45 am

Hey Vivien,

I began writing a response after reading your message last night. Couldn’t finish it though.

What concerns me are your comments about me not being able to distinguish between content of thoughts vs thoughts as containers.

If I say last night I had a dream where I was stabbed. I was very afraid and woke up in sweating. The pain of it felt very real.

Containers would be the experience of having dreamt all that. Which would mean the experience of having such dream is real. The content of the dream, however, that being the stabbing itself, is not real. I get that. Does this not show the ability to see the diff btwn the two?

I want to know your response before replying back to the rest because we are either treading in the same neighborhood or we are oceans apart in understanding one another.

Thanks,
Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:25 am

Hi Jim,
Containers would be the experience of having dreamt all that. Which would mean the experience of having such dream is real. The content of the dream, however, that being the stabbing itself, is not real. I get that. Does this not show the ability to see the diff btwn the two?
The thing is that we are talking about a hypothetical thing, a dream that is not present now.
The dream is not here now, it’s just a memory in this moment, so there are only thoughts about a dream.

So it’s really not helpful to talk about something hypothetical or something that happened in the past (like a dream).

So let’s put aside this hypothetical past dream scenario.
Since reality can be investigated only in this moment.

If we are analysing whether a dream was real or not, we are already dealing with concepts in thought-land.
The dream is not here now, so it can be investigated only conceptually.
That’s why I gave you the spoon exercise.
What concerns me are your comments about me not being able to distinguish between content of thoughts vs thoughts as containers.
Maybe you can. But we have to completely stop to analyze things that happened in the past (since that is only a thought in this moment) or any hypothetical scenarios.

It was a mistake on my part that I let this exploration to go to thinking through about a hypothetical dream which is not here now.

If you want, you can ignore all my comments about the dream. Probably it would be better.

And just do the spoon exercise. And we will see if you can make distinction or not. Maybe you can. I would be glad to see that :)

So let’s agree that we are going to talk about practical (actual) here-and-now things, and not about conceptual or hypothetical stuff. All right? Can we agree on this?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:24 am

Hey Vivien
If you want, you can ignore all my comments about the dream. Probably it would be better.

And just do the spoon exercise. And we will see if you can make distinction or not. Maybe you can. I would be glad to see that :)

So let’s agree that we are going to talk about practical (actual) here-and-now things, and not about conceptual or hypothetical stuff. All right? Can we agree on this?
We can totally forget all the previous comments and focus on the here-and-now stuff. TBH I'm glad for the change in direction. :)
Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life?
No, there is no spoon.
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
Well I couldn't feel the spoon in my hands. Nor see it. Do you need to know more?
What happened to the spoon?
Not sure. The real one is still in the drawer. The imagined one only 'exists' in thought. To be clear, at no point did I mistake that I was holding onto a real spoon during this exercise.
Did it disappear or it never existed?
Only the thought of it existed. It didn't disappear because it was never there in real life. If anything, the thought of it disappeared.

How did I do?

Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:55 am

Hi Jim,
Only the thought of it existed. It didn't disappear because it was never there in real life. If anything, the thought of it disappeared.
Exactly. There has never been a real spoon. It was just an imagination.

Thought of a spoon = imagination of the spoon, right?


So, we are going to search for the self, similarly.

We are going to look for a self/me, just as if you were looking for a real spoon.

We are looking for a real, tangible self that seeming travels through time and space since this body was born.
The assumption is that there is a self somewhere inside the body.

Just as the spoon is in the drawer. You can go to the drawer, open it, and you can see, touch, smell, taste the spoon. The existence of the spoon is verifiable with the 5 senses.

So search through the whole body from head to toe, and look for the self, as if you were looking for a spoon in the drawer.
We are looking for a real, tangible, verifiable self.

Where is it?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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