High intellect meets high intuition

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:57 am

Hey Vivien,
Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.
Still at it. Will be in touch tomorrow.

Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:02 am

Hi Jim,

All right. Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:03 am

Hi Vivien,

I have the clock ticking in the background as I write. I've tried to do as instructed, and not sure if it worked. Here goes..
Going just by the tick tock sound, can a clock be found?
No it cannot be pinpointed. Using the auditory senses attached to this experience, I can locate the direction of and proximity to the source of the sound.
Is there any experience of a clock in the sound?
Without thought, no there is no experience of a clock in the sound.
Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
No, it's only thoughts that attach labels to the sound.
Can a hidden clock be found in the sound?
No it cannot.
Can a clock be found beyond the sound?
Are you asking if by using our other senses, can we find and locate a clock?
If so, then yes.?.
I could tune in the approximate location, reach out and pick it up, see it, touch it, hear it.
(but then you would ask where is the clock to be found in AE Can it be found in the sensation of touch, smell, ?
And the answer to that is you can't. However, I could remove the battery or break it so that it doesn't tick anymore. End of contraption labeled clock.
In experience of the sound, is there any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?
What can be found?
No, not in sound alone. Neither in any AE.
Sill not sure what to make of ability to power off the clock.
Can it be established that in the experience of the sound ‘tick tock’ there is a clock?
No strangely it can't without the aide of thoughts + memory.


Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:30 am

Hi Jim,
No it cannot be pinpointed. Using the auditory senses attached to this experience, I can locate the direction of and proximity to the source of the sound.
Even the location of the source of the sound cannot be known in experience. But this is harder to see and we don’t want to jump ahead.
No strangely it can't without the aide of thoughts + memory.
Yes, exactly. You did a nice looking with this one.
I could tune in the approximate location, reach out and pick it up, see it, touch it, hear it.
(but then you would ask where is the clock to be found in AE Can it be found in the sensation of touch, smell, ?
Yes, and this is exactly what we will investigate later.
However, I could remove the battery or break it so that it doesn't tick anymore. End of contraption labeled clock.
This reply is coming from the belief in time and cause and effect.

Any comparison, like comparing that with battery there was a sound a minute ago, but now, without battery there is no sound can happen exclusively in thought.

And also making the claim that the lack of the sound is the result of the batteries being removed can happen only in thought and it can never be experienced. Of course, this is a valid statement in terms of conventional reality, but when we are investigating the self, we cannot rely on conventional truths.

We will investigate this topic thoroughly later. For now, I just would like to ask you to try to put aside any speculation (anything what thoughts have to say on the matter) and pay attention only to what can be directly known in experience without any thought. Ignore all thoughts, as if they were muted.
Without thought, no there is no experience of a clock in the sound.
Yes, exactly.

So what is experienced is thought label (‘clock’) + sound + thoughts ABOUT the clock (and battery, etc), but the thoughts about the clock are pointing to further thought (like removing the battery), because a clock is not known/experienced.
Since there is ONLY the experience of sound + thought. Nothing else.
Is this clear?


Let’s continue with the clock and try to find a hearer...if sound is actually heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3Xt8YnGE0

Sit quietly and take in a few deep breaths, relax and then focus on the experience of the tick tock sound. Set aside ALL verbal and visual thoughts, ideas, speculations, etc. throughout this experiment and just focus on the sound itself.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?

What is doing the hearing in experience? – ignore what thoughts have to say on the matter, just focus on the hearing of the sound, ignore everything else

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only sound?


Please repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 am

Hi Vivien,

However, I could remove the battery or break it so that it doesn't tick anymore. End of contraption labeled clock.
This reply is coming from the belief in time and cause and effect.

And also making the claim that the lack of the sound is the result of the batteries being removed can happen only in thought and it can never be experienced.
True it's all thought speculation. This particular thought causes strong resistance to the AE of the ticking sound.
So what is experienced is thought label (‘clock’) + sound + thoughts ABOUT the clock (and battery, etc), but the thoughts about the clock are pointing to further thought (like removing the battery), because a clock is not known/experienced.
Since there is ONLY the experience of sound + thought. Nothing else.
Is this clear?
It feels strange still to say it, but yeah there is only the experience of sound.

I apologize I haven't completed the hearing exercises. I did practice looking for what is the 'I' that attaches itself to thoughts. For some reason this inquiry came naturally throughout the day.

Until tomorrow,
Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:50 am

Hi Jim,
J: However, I could remove the battery or break it so that it doesn't tick anymore. End of contraption labeled clock.
V: This reply is coming from the belief in time and cause and effect.
And also making the claim that the lack of the sound is the result of the batteries being removed can happen only in thought and it can never be experienced.
J: True it's all thought speculation. This particular thought causes strong resistance to the AE of the ticking sound.
How do you feel, is this resistance strong enough to prevent looking?
If yes, we can investigate this resistance.

If not, then I will reply back to your other comments after you have finished with the previous questions.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:41 am

Hey Vivien,

How do you feel, is this resistance strong enough to prevent looking?
I don’t know? I can listen to the sounds several times and reply to the questions. Detaching from conventional thinking is another thing. There’s an insistent voice strongly claiming thoughts matter (and words matter too). It definitely tickles a nerve. So when I respond that AE is what matters, the acceptance is more more mind based than experience based. Not sure if this part is normal. I don’t like the tic toc sound particularly. Wish something else could be used.

Unrelatedly, there’s another part of me that that has been emerging recently that enjoys trying to catch the source of ‘me.’ It’s spontaneous. There’s a desire to concentrate on this more.

But in your guidance I trust so, tell me where to look..

Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:27 am

Hi Jim,
I don’t like the tic toc sound particularly. Wish something else could be used.
You can use any sound you like. Just make sure that it’s a repetitive sound, like the humming of a fridge or the air conditioner.

Or you can use this water sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLRith2wcc

Or the sound of rain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76bMs-NwRk

Or the sound of the ocean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nep1qytq9JM
I did practice looking for what is the 'I' that attaches itself to thoughts.
This is a tricky one. It’s not about an ‘I’ attaching itself to thoughts.
Only thoughts ‘talk’ about the I/me.
And ‘talking’ on behalf of me/I.

Are you open to the possibility that there is no me/I that thoughts are talking on behalf?
Are you open to the possibility that there is no I/me at all (other than thoughts about it)? That the I/me has always been just ASSUMED or INFERRED?

Unrelatedly, there’s another part of me that that has been emerging recently that enjoys trying to catch the source of ‘me.’ It’s spontaneous. There’s a desire to concentrate on this more.
The remaining questions you haven’t looked at are exactly about this. It’s about trying to find the me, the hearer of the sound.

Choose a sound you like and investigate.

What is doing the hearing in experience? – ignore what thoughts have to say on the matter, just focus on the hearing of the sound, ignore everything else

Is there an I/me hearing the sounds?
If yes, WHERE is this hearer exactly? – try to locate it with precision


What is doing the hearing in experience? – ignore what thoughts have to say on the matter, just focus on the hearing of the sound, ignore everything else

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?

Can a hearer/I/me be found? Or is there only sound?


Please repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:17 am

Hi Vivien,

Good to know any constant sound can be used. I use to practice this a long time ago with various sounds.
You can use any sound you like. Just make sure that it’s a repetitive sound, like the humming of a fridge or the air conditioner.
Big relief. I figured as much. Just didn't know if the tic toc had some special purpose.
Are you open to the possibility that there is no me/I that thoughts are talking on behalf?
I am open to it. If true, it would make all of us believers fools for believing in separation. I don't want to be a fool anymore.
What is doing the hearing in experience? – ignore what thoughts have to say on the matter, just focus on the hearing of the sound, ignore everything else
I don't know what is doing the hearing experience. Hearing happens.
Is there an I/me hearing the sounds?
If yes, WHERE is this hearer exactly? – try to locate it with precision
I want to say yes there is a me hearing the sounds (like a receiver).
I don't know exactly where the me is located. But the same goes for the location of thoughts. Hearing happens just like thoughts happen- automatically.
What is doing the hearing in experience? – ignore what thoughts have to say on the matter, just focus on the hearing of the sound, ignore everything else
I don't know what's doing the experience.
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?
Not really no. Thoughts happen concurrently as hearing happens. But nothing can be found in hearing sounds besides the sounds themselves.
Can a hearer/I/me be found? Or is there only sound?
I don't know. I can't locate thoughts either, and they exist. The AE of the sound itself contains no 'I/me.'
It's hard to stay focused without thoughts distracting.

I may have developed a slight addiction to the soothing sounds of that water flow. Not really, but I do enjoy it. :)


Jim

to the sound of a babbling brook.

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:36 am

Hi Jim,
I may have developed a slight addiction to the soothing sounds of that water flow. Not really, but I do enjoy it. :)
I’m glad to hear that, since you are going to listen to it for some time, until you really-really look for the hearer :)
I am open to it. If true, it would make all of us believers fools for believing in separation. I don't want to be a fool anymore.
Great! But there is no one to be or not to be a fool.
You will need this determination, since we won’t move at all, until you really look for the hearer. If I have to ask the same questions for 100 days or more, then I will do it :) We are going to target the me/I/self, and won’t look at anything else.
I want to say yes there is a me hearing the sounds (like a receiver)
This is an automatic, conditioned intellectual response.
I don't know exactly where the me is located. But the same goes for the location of thoughts. Hearing happens just like thoughts happen- automatically.
This is mere speculation.

A thought has no physical location, yet when a thought is there, it is known/experienced.
So although you cannot point your finger to a physical location, yet, a thought can be found/known.
Its existence is unquestionable, its existence is known/experienced, isn’t it?


Can this be said about the me?

Please, listen to the sound of the water flow (or any sound you like).

The sound is known/experienced, isn’t it?

How is the HEARER is experienced?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:20 am

Hi Vivien,

Great! But there is no one to be or not to be a fool.
This struck a chord. Just about all thoughts presume a 'me'. And I ask the question what is searching for it. Nothing comes and get sucked back into conventional world.
If I have to ask the same questions for 100 days or more, then I will do it :) We are going to target the me/I/self, and won’t look at anything else.
I'm down so long as your fine with staying for the long haul, which it does. I feel like that student from Mr. Holland Opus...the one that had no sense of rhythm and Mr. H had to teach him the drums.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad5pKiflwew

I'm already feeling worn down tbh. I know if there is no me, then who is getting worn down with whom? Anyway, today I felt fear while thinking about the possibility of no 'me.' The thought of not having any point of reference was what triggered it. By that I mean, if all the beliefs I have of self have been defined this life so far, take that away and what is left? No reference point. This didn't last though before getting distracted with other thoughts.
I don't know exactly where the me is located. But the same goes for the location of thoughts. Hearing happens just like thoughts happen- automatically.
This is mere speculation.

A thought has no physical location, yet when a thought is there, it is known/experienced.
So you keep saying, and I forgetting.
So although you cannot point your finger to a physical location, yet, a thought can be found/known.
Its existence is unquestionable, its existence is known/experienced, isn’t it?
Yes thoughts are experienced. The experience of them is unquestionable.
Can this be said about the me?
I am having trouble letting go of beliefs of a knower/awarer. You've covered this ground before. And I keep going in circles with old thought patterns. Sorry for that.
The sound is known/experienced, isn’t it?
Yes, I want to say "I am experiencing the sound of the refrigerator humming."
I feel like I fail because you want me to see that there is humming only, no 'I/me' in AE.
How is the HEARER is experienced?
I don't know. It's experienced as the sound itself. But that doesn't make sense either.
If there are multiple experiences happening simultaneously within AE, for example I touch the keyboard, hear the hum, see the screen, etc.., that's all there is? All thoughts of self are bs? It's too weird. I don't know. I still hear sounds and ask what is hearing.

Thanks,
Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:59 am

Hi Jim,
V: Great! But there is no one to be or not to be a fool.
J: This struck a chord. Just about all thoughts presume a 'me'. And I ask the question what is searching for it. Nothing comes and get sucked back into conventional world.
Of course nothing comes… you are waiting for a thought to tell you what is searching for it, instead of you actively looking for a ‘me’.
I'm down so long as your fine with staying for the long haul, which it does. I feel like that student from Mr. Holland Opus...the one that had no sense of rhythm and Mr. H had to teach him the drums.
I haven’t had a time to watch the video, but I will.
I'm already feeling worn down tbh. I know if there is no me, then who is getting worn down with whom? Anyway, today I felt fear while thinking about the possibility of no 'me.' The thought of not having any point of reference was what triggered it. By that I mean, if all the beliefs I have of self have been defined this life so far, take that away and what is left? No reference point. This didn't last though before getting distracted with other thoughts.
Thank you for sharing this. If fear or resistance comes up at any point again, please let me know, so we can have a look at it.
V: How is the HEARER is experienced?
J: I don't know. It's experienced as the sound itself. But that doesn't make sense either.
If there are multiple experiences happening simultaneously within AE, for example I touch the keyboard, hear the hum, see the screen, etc.., that's all there is? All thoughts of self are bs? It's too weird. I don't know. I still hear sounds and ask what is hearing.
The thing is that you are not looking at the experience to see how the hearer is experienced, rather you are trying to think it through. You will never ever be able to get this by thinking.

But before getting to concerned that it might not work out, I have a great idea. We are going to try out a completely different guiding style.

I would like to ask you to forget everything we have done so far. Forget about the notion of AE, forget if thoughts have location or not. We will label the sound of the fridge, just the sound of the fridge. We won’t use the term AE any more. We put aside everything we’ve done so far.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

This investigation will be very-very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

I will at times ask things repeatedly, or in very simple language. If that happens, trust the process as it's meant to stop the intellectualizing an allow exploration of the experiential.

So, let’s start it. :)

Imagine, that you are a five-year old boy, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)

So while we are playing, you are trying to explain to me that how you know that the cup in your hands is real.

So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?
And how do you know that a ghost is not real?


If the question and resulting answer seems too simplistic, good. It's leading us where we need to go.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:46 pm

Hi Vivien,
I haven’t had a time to watch the video, but I will.
You can skip half of it and start at 2:02.
But before getting to concerned that it might not work out, I have a great idea. We are going to try out a completely different guiding style.

I would like to ask you to forget everything we have done so far. Forget about the notion of AE, forget if thoughts have location or not. We will label the sound of the fridge, just the sound of the fridge. We won’t use the term AE any more. We put aside everything we’ve done so far.
I'm excited to start this new process. Spirits feel lifted. :)
You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

Imagine, that you are a five-year old boy, and I am your five-year old friend. We are playing together in the kindergarten. Do you get the picture? :)
I get the picture. The trick is to stay in a child mindset.
So what do you tell me (to your five-year old friend)? How do you know that the cup in your hand is real?
The cup is real because I feel it in my hands- the weight, the texture, the curvature. I can see it with my eyes. I can try and smell it or bite it.
And how do you know that a ghost is not real?
I cannot hold, touch, see, smell, taste or hear a ghost.
Unless a ghost can be experienced, it does not exist.

(is this the kind of simplicity we are looking for?)


Jim

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:24 am

Hi Jim,

I watched the video. It was funny. I’m glad that you compared this inquiry with a story with successful ending. :)
I'm excited to start this new process. Spirits feel lifted. :)
Great!
(is this the kind of simplicity we are looking for?)
Yes.
The cup is real because I feel it in my hands- the weight, the texture, the curvature. I can see it with my eyes. I can try and smell it or bite it.
So then, it this clear that experience can happen only with the 5 senses?

I can see, hear, taste, smell and touch the cup. Right?

So the cup is real, since I can see it, hear it, taste it, smell it, touch it. Right?

I cannot hold, touch, see, smell, taste or hear a ghost.
Unless a ghost can be experienced, it does not exist.
So a ghost cannot be touched, seen, heard, tasted, smelled, it can only be THOUGHT OF?

What is a difference between a ‘real thing’ and ‘not real thing’?


These questions seem to be very simplistic, and there could an automatic reply to them ‘Yes, of course’. But please don’t do that. Regardless of their simplicity, please really contemplate them.

Often we have reflexive responses with simple questions, and as soon as the mind comes up with an answer, it immediately moves past it. But I ask that you stop and savour both the questions and the answers that come up.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:53 pm

Hey Vivien,
So then, it this clear that experience can happen only with the 5 senses?
Sure if we are keeping things strictly simple, then experience can only happen with the 5 senses plus thoughts/brain activity. What comes to mind is there are mental experiences too, not just physical. If I have a bad dream that leaves me sweating, then the experience of the dream was real, even though it would be impossible to prove to you or anyone else. Unlike an object such as a cup, which I could hand to you to verify for yourself with your senses. (Not sure if dreams count as thoughts only, so included 'brain activity'.)
I can see, hear, taste, smell and touch the cup. Right?
Yes, total agreement there.
So the cup is real, since I can see it, hear it, taste it, smell it, touch it. Right?
Yes, it is real. I can experience the object labeled 'cup' with my senses.
So a ghost cannot be touched, seen, heard, tasted, smelled, it can only be THOUGHT OF?
(stepping outside of simplicity for a moment. This comment that ghosts don't exist depends on whether they can be measured with others tools. For example, you and I cannot see bacteria or viruses with the naked eye. Yet pull out a microscope and small enough needle, and we can both see and touch them. I'm not advocating for the existence of ghosts. But this point did bug me the first time. There could be some energy phenomenon that we haven't developed the tools to see/measure them.)

Back in 5yo mind, that is correct: ghosts can only be thought of...just like any god or spirit.
What is a difference between a ‘real thing’ and ‘not real thing’?
The first thing that comes to mind is thought. But thoughts are real, even though the content of thoughts needn't be as previously agreed. A 'real thing' is something that can be experienced in some form or manner via the senses and thoughts. 'Non-real' things cannot be experienced in any manner. Santa Claus will never go down you chimney because he's just an invented character.
But I ask that you stop and savour both the questions and the answers that come up.
Do you mean letting yourself be awed by everyday reality? Like any object I pick up, should I contemplate how amazing it is for anything to exist at all?

Jim


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