High intellect meets high intuition

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Ready2end
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High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:49 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That I am just a thought...or better put that the only I that I can find is in thought.
What are you looking for at LU? I’m looking for an exchange with someone who has experience with high intellect individuals that can help me see through the illusion of choice. I still feel as if I am choosing every little decision in life. There is no chooser they say, but it feels there is. Everyone that I’ve been able to discuss this with in the past always say similar things like I’m too much in my head, to smart for my own good, or that my intellect gets in the way. So hopefully there is a guide who has experience with someone like me.

FYI
In the past few weeks, I am following intuition as a guide for everything. I want the band aid of selfhood ripped off once and for all. Tired of the old games. Since I have trouble writing out thoughts on my own, I feel this may be a way to clear out blockage.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect a lot of back n forth about looking into the present moment. I’ve read many of the forums as well as the one of the books. Looking doesn’t seem to do it. Hoping that participation in a dialogue will be more useful than passively following other people’s conversations. And while we’re being upfront, there is a hope that there will be a guide who will ask a question that gets me to reconsider something in a new light leading to an “aha” moment. If this doesn’t happen, I’m ok either way. Just rip off the band aid.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Been seeking for 7+ years. Started as a spiritual quest for enlightenment as if enlightenment were something to be obtained. As if it were a state of perfection...and I felt very imperfect then. About halfway through, life showed me enlightenment isn’t anything to be gained but is instead a deconstruction. I was taught about self inquiry early on and have used it as a tool...that and memento mori. My all time favorite resource is Jed McKenna. I’ve read lots of others, but his works stand out.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:34 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:26 pm

Hi Vivien,
Thank you for volunteering to be my guide.
I'm looking forward to this process.
Since it's been a busy weekend preparing for an upcoming move, I will review all the info and respond back to the questions later tonight.
Thanks again,
Jim

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 am

Hi Vivien,

I’ll just dive in and try to paint you a picture of where I am, which is I don’t know who I am.

I am always analyzing how to be...what to be. I don’t mean this in a mental illness way ( besides anxiety). Rather it’s from more of a 3rd person self-observational one. If you were to ask me ‘who am I?’.. I wouldn’t be able to tell you. No definition could hold water under scrutiny. It would depend upon what’s the scenario and what my current mood is plus a seemingly infinite set of other factors that ultimately decide how I behave at any given moment. A part of me is always searching for why do I do anything at all? What is the motivation behind my thoughts and actions?

Like I am having trouble knowing what to say here and now. So there is a long pause. Then I feel it is worth noting that I have many of the same desires and expectations as described in the reading materials. I too wish for a less bumpy ride in this life. and more stability. HOWEVER, none of these desires and expectations are what presently brought me to LU. Instead, it is the process of surrendering.

I’ve overextended myself in many ways. Especially financially. And it feels like I’ve reached the point of admitting defeat. Life wins. No matter how hard I try…it has it’s way. So I give up. And I am reminded of what Jed said in his first book about releasing the tiller. So if more pain and suffering follows…so be it. Just be done quickly. I’ve been at this for a while. I’m tired.

At the same time, I am also afraid that in reality I am deluding myself with this story of surrender. That I find more delight in the idea of not having to be responsible for my actions. How easy to say, “well it’s up to life” and shrug the shoulders instead of facing consequences for foolish choices.

That sums up things for now. Having reviewed what I wrote in my introduction, I feel very foolish. Like there was a false bravado at the time of writing it.

J
How will Life change?
I so wish for some breathing room in life financially speaking. But from the viewpoint of surrender, I accept the continued hardship if that is what life wants. If that is what it takes to get me to surrender and let go.
I also imagine relations will get better. Mostly because of how I would change…


How will you change?
I would become less critical, more accepting of myself and loved ones. Less anxiety, more flow. Those are hopeful desires that still reside inside. From surrendering viewpoint, I don’t know how I will change other than continue to grow in maturity and grace. And I accept the fact that this may never happen. That I will remain as I am fighting the same demons…should Life wants it that way. I don’t seem to have much of a say other than whether I continue resisting process of surrendering.

What will be different?
Like previously mentioned, it’s been a bumpy ride this life. So there is hope that after truly seeing no-self, and continuing to trust Life and Intuition, what would change is that Life would become easier
.
Hopes aside, there is acceptance that it may remain as difficult as it always been.

What is missing?
…besides the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

In reality, I don’t know?

Many things feel missing in life. Traits and characteristics come to mind. But again there is a newfound acceptance that these things may stay missing forever, and that’d be ok.

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:34 am

Hi Jim,

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I am always analyzing how to be...what to be. I don’t mean this in a mental illness way ( besides anxiety). Rather it’s from more of a 3rd person self-observational one. If you were to ask me ‘who am I?’.. I wouldn’t be able to tell you.
I won’t ask you who you are. Rather I will give you questions and exercises to see if there is a YOU at all.
No definition could hold water under scrutiny.
That’s good. So we will investigate if there is a you/self at all that could identify with anything at all.
At the same time, I am also afraid that in reality I am deluding myself with this story of surrender. That I find more delight in the idea of not having to be responsible for my actions. How easy to say, “well it’s up to life” and shrug the shoulders instead of facing consequences for foolish choices.
Although we will investigate thoroughly if there is a chooser or decider at all, still conventionally speaking decisions are made and in the seeming story of ‘me’ there is a seeming responsibility, although it can be seen that there is no one that could have any responsibility whatsoever.
I so wish for some breathing room in life financially speaking. But from the viewpoint of surrender, I accept the continued hardship if that is what life wants. If that is what it takes to get me to surrender and let go.
Seeing through the self doesn’t have much to do with financial situations.
I also imagine relations will get better. Mostly because of how I would change…
This might or might not happen. Personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
I would become less critical, more accepting of myself and loved ones. Less anxiety, more flow. Those are hopeful desires that still reside inside.
Suffering happens when being lost in thoughts happens. It means that the thoughts in that moment are not seen only as arising thoughts (only as ‘containers’ coming and going), but rather their ‘content’, what they are about is taken as reality. And of course, since each thought is about the self, the self is taken as something real. And this, let’s call ‘delusion’ still can happen even after seeing the illusion of the self. But when it’s investigated, it can be seen for what it is. But there is no guaranty that in the next moment the story of a self won’t reassert itself. It’s a habit of the mind. It’s a conditioned pattern of thinking. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.
Like previously mentioned, it’s been a bumpy ride this life. So there is hope that after truly seeing no-self, and continuing to trust Life and Intuition, what would change is that Life would become easier
Life itself won’t change just because the self is seen through, but the perception of life could change.
Everyone that I’ve been able to discuss this with in the past always say similar things like I’m too much in my head, to smart for my own good, or that my intellect gets in the way. So hopefully there is a guide who has experience with someone like me.
This inquiry is completely experiential base. This means that you have to come out of your head, from concepts, thoughts, and you have to look at your immediate direct experience ‘under’ the conceptual overlay. This might not be easy at the beginning, especially if you’re get used to manipulate concepts only, but looking at actual experience can be learned just as any skill.
My all time favorite resource is Jed McKenna. I’ve read lots of others, but his works stand out.
I would like to ask you to stop reading and listening any teachers for the duration of our investigation, and rather spend your time on looking at your experience. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge about the topic of awakening. You have to see this for yourself experientially, and not relying on others’ experiences.

Before starting, please tell me what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?


Let’s start it. As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.
Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:10 am

Part 1

So below are the reactions I had to your responses. I’ll send the breakdown of daily activities tomorrow after giving the exercise a try.

I won’t ask you who you are. Rather I will give you questions and exercises to see if there is a YOU at all.
ok. It’s weird to say there isn’t a me when I feel there is. Something yearns for a definition that encompasses all the various aspects of me. So if these exercises you mention can assist in me seeing past the illusion of self, then I’m game. Let’s go and look.

That’s good. So we will investigate if there is a you/self at all that could identify with anything at all.
Yes that’s a good point you bring up. It does feel like there is a me identifying with all sorts of thoughts. Yet, no matter how contradictory my thoughts may seem, I am always believing them to be me.
Although we will investigate thoroughly if there is a chooser or decider at all, still conventionally speaking decisions are made and in the seeming story of ‘me’ there is a seeming responsibility, although it can be seen that there is no one that could have any responsibility whatsoever.
Here there is resistance. Responsibility is hard to let go of. So we’ll see what happens.
Seeing through the self doesn’t have much to do with financial situations.
Agreed, not directly it doesn’t. I’ve used it as a tool for the past decade to induce hardship and pressure. It’s what it took to humble me from remaining an egotistical dumbass.
This might or might not happen. Personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Well that’s too bad if it doesn’t. I’d be interested in learning more about how to work on these conditioned reactions should it be necessary after seeing no self. At the end of the day..I’m willing to accept whatever life wants. White flag waived.

This might or might not happen. Personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Sounds encouraging.

Life itself won’t change just because the self is seen through, but the perception of life could change.
What difference does it make if I have no choice in the matter??

This inquiry is completely experiential base. This means that you have to come out of your head, from concepts, thoughts, and you have to look at your immediate direct experience ‘under’ the conceptual overlay. This might not be easy at the beginning, especially if you’re get used to manipulate concepts only, but looking at actual experience can be learned just as any skill.
Feels like I’m an utter newbie to life outside the mind. So I’ll give it my best to learn. We may have to step back from time to time until I get it. You can count on honest effort.

I would like to ask you to stop reading and listening any teachers for the duration of our investigation, and rather spend your time on looking at your experience. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge about the topic of awakening. You have to see this for yourself experientially, and not relying on others’ experiences.
Not actively listening or reading anyone at the moment. Was just providing a bit of background of influencers along this ’spiritual journey’. Rest assured recently I’ve been growing tired of relying on other’s experiences as well. Curious to find what is my own experience.


It seems like most of the resistance was to the comment about responsibility not being an actual thing but an illusion. Interested in how this plays out: DE vs a deep psychological conditioning ta ta tummmmm..

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:54 am

Part 2
Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise

So I’ve been trying. It’s proving very difficult to stay focused for more than 30 sec before falling back into thoughts. Not necessarily that thoughts are running constantly. Though it’s is major components. But even when there’s a blank mind more or less, there is still concerns about where I’ll be living at the end of the month. A silent anxiety if you will.

When I am in the process of doing the exercise, I feel overwhelmed by what to notice since there is so much to notice at any given moment. Like laying in bed. I switch to breath to feeling the sensation of body pressed on the mattress, the texture of the sheets, the noise of the fan circulating, noticing the light of the lamp, being aware or awareness noticing these occurrences/happenings, noticing judgements. Etc.

All the while, I’m also trying to classify all these things according to the given labels. And it feels anxious trying trying to make sure the label fits the occurrence. It may sound dumb and so be it. For me, the mind is use to working quickly and thinking steps ahead. This is different.

I’m not deterred though. It’s a change from the habitual. So I’ll keep at this and will wait for any feedback. Thanks

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:23 am

Hi Jim,
So if these exercises you mention can assist in me seeing past the illusion of self, then I’m game. Let’s go and look.
Yes, this is what I meant.
Here there is resistance. Responsibility is hard to let go of. So we’ll see what happens.
It’s not about letting go of responsibility, it’s not an act of getting rid of it. That would be indeed a quite difficult task. Rather to see experientially, that there is no-one having any responsibility. You will see what I mean when we get there.
V: Life itself won’t change just because the self is seen through, but the perception of life could change.
J: What difference does it make if I have no choice in the matter??
The perception of life or how we perceive things (or misperceive) are one of the reasons for suffering.
Feels like I’m an utter newbie to life outside the mind. So I’ll give it my best to learn. We may have to step back from time to time until I get it. You can count on honest effort.
Yes, honest effort is really important. Thank you.
So I’ve been trying. It’s proving very difficult to stay focused for more than 30 sec before falling back into thoughts. Not necessarily that thoughts are running constantly. Though it’s is major components. But even when there’s a blank mind more or less, there is still concerns about where I’ll be living at the end of the month. A silent anxiety if you will.
The aim of the exercise is not to stay in a state where no thoughts appear, it’s not about having a blank mind.

This is only a warm up exercise, just as the next exercise will be. I gave you this exercise to learn how to look at actual experience (AE), and how to distinguish between AE and thoughts about AE.

If other thoughts appear while looking, note them, and just put them aside. They don’t have to go away. It’s enough if you don’t give them too much attention. Let them be there. Just don’t indulge in them. Rather just continue with looking.
When I am in the process of doing the exercise, I feel overwhelmed by what to notice since there is so much to notice at any given moment.
You don’t have to notice every single thing that is happening. This is just a learning tool how to observe what is actually happening, compared to what thoughts have to say what is happening. This distinction is very important, this will the basis of our investigation.
I’m not deterred though. It’s a change from the habitual.
Great! :)
Like laying in bed. I switch to breath to feeling the sensation of body pressed on the mattress, the texture of the sheets, the noise of the fan circulating, noticing the light of the lamp, being aware or awareness noticing these occurrences/happenings, noticing judgements. Etc.
So, let’s break these down:

Laying in bed = sensation
Switching to breath = sensation
feeling the sensation of body pressed on the mattress = sensation
the texture of the sheet = sensation
the noise of the fan circulating = sound
noticing the light of the lamp = image/color
noticing judgements = thoughts

So now I would like to ask you to repeat this exercise, and write me a similar list with the corresponding labels as above from a period of time looking of what is happening.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:05 am

So I’ve been trying. It’s proving very difficult to stay focused for more than 30 sec before falling back into thoughts. Not necessarily that thoughts are running constantly. Though it’s is major components. But even when there’s a blank mind more or less, there is still concerns about where I’ll be living at the end of the month. A silent anxiety if you will.
The aim of the exercise is not to stay in a state where no thoughts appear, it’s not about having a blank mind.
Didn’t convey my thoughts well here...blank mind wasn’t a goal. Yesterday I received news that shook me up. Left me in a mild state of shock. So there wasn’t the usual chat stream running through my head. And what I meant to say was that even with less chatter, staying focused was difficult.

V: Life itself won’t change just because the self is seen through, but the perception of life could change.
J: What difference does it make if I have no choice in the matter??
The perception of life or how we perceive things (or misperceive) are one of the reasons for suffering
I get it, and that would be great if things improved by way of new perception. It just feels better to truly accept the fact that things may never improve. A resignation born from years of false hopes.

You don’t have to notice every single thing that is happening. This is just a learning tool how to observe what is actually happening, compared to what thoughts have to say what is happening. This distinction is very important, this will the basis of our investigation
As I was re-reading this again just now, it clicked the distinction between the two.


So today for lunch, I saw the fridge. = sight
Walked to it. = movement
Pulled handle. = movement/sensation
Saw the items needed and noticed thoughts assessing which produce items would work best. = sight + thoughts
Placed them on the counter and made a salad. = movement + sensation
Focused on activity while thoughts streamed in and out. = movement + thoughts
Ate lunch. = taste
Felt full. = sensation
Felt thirsty. = sensation
Drank some water. = movement/sensation

Is this right?

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:31 am

Hi Jim,
Is this right?
Mostly. There is just one thing:

Movement is not AE. Movement is nothing else than a sensation, and only thoughts label certain sensations as movement or stillness (or lack of movement).

Put one of your hand onto a desk or into your lap. Closed your eyes, and pay attention only to the sensations labelled ‘hand’.

Then slowly (still with closed eyes) start to move your fingers.
Pay attention to the sensations that are labelled as ‘movement’.

Is there anything else there other than sensation?
Can you see that movement is just a label on certain sensations?


I gave you this exercise to helps you to differentiate between what is actually happening and what THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT what is happening.

Now we start investigating thoughts.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.


Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:45 pm

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.
It's only half-way through my day, and wanted to share what it's like so far.

As I sit and let thoughts flow in and out of mind, I am reminded of doing regular meditation.
I let that thought pass and try to observe the gaps between thoughts.
In so doing, there is a persistent thought about who is observing? / what is aware?
Then thoughts about how this is also like doing self-inquiry. This is followed by other sensations and thoughts about those sensations.
I allow all thoughts to pass without objection...just as awareness being aware.
I find that trying to notice the gaps between thoughts most difficult. How are you aware of nothing?
There is always a presence of 'me' being aware filling in the gap.
Does this make sense?



Ok will continue practicing.


Forgot to mention:
Is there anything else there other than sensation?
Can you see that movement is just a label on certain sensations?
Sensation of movement seems subtle. I feel like I get the difference you speak of. I did the exercise with the hand on my lap. I found myself wandering how can I tell there is movement at all? Like if you're running on a field, movement is easy to tell. But using your right hand to move some fingers...kind of feels ghostly. In any case, I could feel the sensation of movement.Thanks for pointing that out. It's becoming more obvious the more I test it out.

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:49 am

Hi Jim,
I find that trying to notice the gaps between thoughts most difficult. How are you aware of nothing?
Yes, nothing cannot be known. However, between 2 thoughts, there are other things present, like a sound, or sensation, etc.
There is always a presence of 'me' being aware filling in the gap.
The presence of ‘me’ being aware is NOT AE.

‘Awareness is aware of being aware’ – yes, it SEEMS LIKE that, and this is the BASIS OF THE ILLUSION OF THE SEPARATE SELF.

When it’s seen that a seer, taster, smeller, feeler, thinker, etc. cannot be found, the identification often goes to the seeming appearance of a self-existent, self-aware awareness, which is the knower of everything that appears.

So the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification, “I am that which is aware”…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object). And the identification with awareness is an excellent hiding place for the separate self. Since all the seeming realness of the separate self comes from the seeming realness of a standalone awareness. So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?

This awareness is an ultimate illusion, it really seems very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion. And for those who engaged in non-dual teachings this sometimes can be a serious stumbling block.

Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?

Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
If yes, could you please explain why?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:06 pm

 So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?
I think I understand what you’re saying. I haven't seen it experientially though. Open to possibility of things being an illusion.

Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?
Sure. My first reaction is anything is on the table. Saying awareness is an illusion sounds just as silly as saying self is one too, according to conventional society. I’m treating this as an investigation. And it will be experience that will dictate what is real and not real.

Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
If yes, could you please explain why?
I don’t know if I do or don’t. I don’t feel anything change with this statement alone, unlike the resistance felt with the notion of responsibility. It could be I still haven’t fully grasped the full depth of such a statement…that I’m still at a surface level comprehension/experience.
There is always a presence of 'me' being aware filling in the gap.
The presence of ‘me’ being aware is NOT AE.
 
Ok I saved this for last because it feels like it ties into what you are trying to explain above. I feel resistance to this because the ‘me’ feels like it is present regardless of whether I want it to be or not. It doesn’t really have a name. More of a permanent ‘is-ness.’ I did the exercise several more times, and it hasn’t changed. So perhaps the answer to the previous question is yes, there is resistance? I'm a little confused if this statement is the same as your question about awareness possibly being an illusion.

One thing I wanted to mention is that many of the times, there aren’t any gaps because my thoughts are layered like songs overlapping on a playlist. One begins as the other fades. And I feel like I’m missing the opportunity to experience the pause in between. I let it happen though without prejudice. Just noting the concern.

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Vivien
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:22 am

Hi Jim,
I’m treating this as an investigation. And it will be experience that will dictate what is real and not real.
Great!
I feel resistance to this because the ‘me’ feels like it is present regardless of whether I want it to be or not. It doesn’t really have a name. More of a permanent ‘is-ness.’…I'm a little confused if this statement is the same as your question about awareness possibly being an illusion.
Probably. But you don’t have to worry about this for now. We will investigate awareness thoroughly later on. Your openness to look and questions your beliefs is what matters only.
One thing I wanted to mention is that many of the times, there aren’t any gaps because my thoughts are layered like songs overlapping on a playlist. One begins as the other fades. And I feel like I’m missing the opportunity to experience the pause in between. I let it happen though without prejudice. Just noting the concern.
It’s not too important whether you can clearly see gaps between thoughts. What matters is the effort of looking, what you did well.

Looking for gaps between thoughts were a preparation exercise to help you how to observe the coming and going of thoughts and also how to look for the self later.

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes or longer and look similarly as you looked for the gaps between thoughts. Look for the ‘answer’ BEFORE thought interpretation kicks in.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Ready2end
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Re: High intellect meets high intuition

Postby Ready2end » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:45 am

leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.
Not to worry. I’m not thinking about the answers. It’s the weekend, and there’s a lot happening. Feel strained. Plus this is a bigger step than previous. Appreciate the extra time.

Will get back to you soon. In case it’s worth mentioning, investigation of thoughts happens automatically at random moments during the day. I catch myself asking, where does this thought come from? Who is thinking? Etc. I’ve always thought of practicing this line of questioning as what they mean by self inquiry.
Alright, back to the land of torture.
#Totallykiddinnotkiddin 😁


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