Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:43 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you actually see the back of the eyes where the image comes from?
No.
How is it known that the eyes see?
Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
It is through science and concepts that we know the eyes are part of how we see. I can’t find anything behind the eyes that are seeing. In AE ‘eyes’ is a thought label. When I move my eyes, different sights can be seen.
Look at whatever is in front of you.
Is it seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or is it like a windscreen view?
It is like a widescreen view.
Now focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
In AE I can feel sensations in my eyes, like slight burning due to allergies/dryness. When I blink I feel the sensation. When I close my eyes, I still see, just darkness or subtle colors from sunlight.But there is nothing that indicates the eyes are doing the seeing.
Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Nothing separate, just what is seen.
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
I used to think these were different, basically something observing the experience. But these are one in the same, or put simply there is just experience.

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:54 am

Hi Jeff,
In AE I can feel sensations in my eyes, like slight burning due to allergies/dryness.
How is it known exactly that the sensation ‘burning’ is due to allergies?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that it’s burning?
When I blink I feel the sensation.
What is the AE of blinking?
When I close my eyes, I still see, just darkness or subtle colors from sunlight.
How is it known exactly that the subtle color is coming from sunlight?
Does the color itself suggest in any way that it’s a subtle color?
When I move my eyes, different sights can be seen.
Without thought, how is it known exactly that different sights are the result of eyes moving?
Is there an actual link between the two?

Without thoughts, how is it known exactly that there are different sights seen?
What is the AE of eyes moving?

I used to think these were different, basically something observing the experience. But these are one in the same, or put simply there is just experience.
Great looking!

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:38 am

Hi Vivien,

I did have some difficulty with this one, and will need to spend some more time looking, but here are my initial replies.
How is it known exactly that the sensation ‘burning’ is due to allergies?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that it’s burning?
The burning sensation due to allergies is just a concept, it is not known in AE. Burning is a label, it is just another sensation.
What is the AE of blinking?
The AE of blinking is a sensation, and a brief disruption in what is seen. Blinking is another label/concept, I find this one difficult to put into words.
How is it known exactly that the subtle color is coming from sunlight?
Does the color itself suggest in any way that it’s a subtle color?
In AE it is not known that the color is coming from the sunlight. ‘Subtle’ is just a label, what is seen is simply there, colors are concepts/ideas.
Without thought, how is it known exactly that different sights are the result of eyes moving?
Is there an actual link between the two?
In AE it is not known that different sights are a result of eyes moving. A newborn baby would not known this. Seeing is happening, there is no link between eyes moving and different sights.
Without thoughts, how is it known exactly that there are different sights seen?
What is the AE of eyes moving?
The thoughts are describing what is seen, that is the only way to know they are different sights. Remove the thoughts and what’s left is just what is seen. The AE of eyes moving is hard for me to describe. It is movement, just like anything else that moves. There are sensations as they move that are felt.

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Jeff,
The AE of blinking is a sensation, and a brief disruption in what is seen. Blinking is another label/concept, I find this one difficult to put into words.
Yes, blinking is just a thought label on a sensation.

“and a brief disruption in what is seen” – How is it known exactly that the sensation labelled ‘blinking’ is disrupting what is seen? Can this be known without thoughts?

Is there cause and effect in AE?
The AE of eyes moving is hard for me to describe. It is movement, just like anything else that moves. There are sensations as they move that are felt.
All right. Please look at whatever is in front of you. Let the eyes move.
Focus ONLY on the sensation labelled ‘movements of eyes’.

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this sensation is movement?
Or that the sensation is the result of a movement?

Or it’s just a sensation, and only thoughts suggest that the sensation is changing and thus concludes that because there is a change there must be a movement?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:09 pm

Hi Vivien,
“and a brief disruption in what is seen” – How is it known exactly that the sensation labelled ‘blinking’ is disrupting what is seen? Can this be known without thoughts?
This can only be known with thoughts, whether or not there is blinking, ‘seeing’ is happening.
Is there cause and effect in AE?
No, just moment-to-moment experience. Thoughts are required to determine cause and effect.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this sensation is movement?
Or that the sensation is the result of a movement?
Thoughts are required to determine if the sensation is ‘movement’. AE is just sensation.
Or it’s just a sensation, and only thoughts suggest that the sensation is changing and thus concludes that because there is a change there must be a movement?
Yes. When I think about seeing as the same way I think of hearing it helps me. Hearing is always happening, ‘sounds/what is heard’ are determined with thoughts. Seeing is always happening, ‘sights/what is seen’ are determined with thoughts. Does this make sense?

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:59 am

Hi Jeff,
This can only be known with thoughts, whether or not there is blinking, ‘seeing’ is happening.
The word ‘seeing’ implies that there is something (like a pair of eyes) that is doing the seeing of objects (seen). But is this so?

How is it known that seeing is happening? Can seeing itself be experienced?
Is there seeing + the seen? Or is there only image/color?


Hearing is always happening, ‘sounds/what is heard’ are determined with thoughts. Seeing is always happening, ‘sights/what is seen’ are determined with thoughts.
Are you sure about this?

What is the AE of hearing?
Can you find the hearing itself?
Or only sounds can be found?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Hi Vivien,
How is it known that seeing is happening? Can seeing itself be experienced?
Is there seeing + the seen? Or is there only image/color?
I understand, you cannot know that ‘seeing’ is happening, it can’t be experienced. There is just what is seen, only image/color. I don’t have to do anything to see.

What is the AE of hearing?
Can you find the hearing itself?
Or only sounds can be found?
In AE there is just sounds, I don’t have to do anything to hear. There is no experience of ‘hearing’.

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:33 am

Hi Jeff,
I understand, you cannot know that ‘seeing’ is happening, it can’t be experienced. There is just what is seen, only image/color. I don’t have to do anything to see.
I don’t have to do anything to hear. There is no experience of ‘hearing’.
And what is it exactly that doesn’t have to do anything to hear or see?

Since emotions play a big role in the illusion of the self, let’s start to investigate them, and see what they really are.
Bring up an emotion, feel it, and let’s examine what is really going on.

An appearing ‘emotion’ like ‘fear’ or ‘happiness’ has three ‘components’:

(a) a pure bodily sensation, like contraction or relaxation
(b) a mental label stuck to (layered over) the sensation, like “this is fear” or “this is contraction in the stomach” or “uncomfortable” or “I am happy”
(c) and simultaneously appearing visual thoughts about a certain body parts, like picture about the stomach or the chest

So when an emotion is present, identify these three components, and investigate them:

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘peaceful’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?
Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, are just mental labels on the pure sensation?

Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?

Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?

So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:16 am

Hi Vivien,
And what is it exactly that doesn’t have to do anything to hear or see?
There isn’t anyone there to do the seeing/hearing. There are thoughts that reference an I, but those are related to a concept, they are a story, in AE there is just image and sound.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘peaceful’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?
Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, are just mental labels on the pure sensation?
The sensations are raw, no feeling attached. The ‘labels’ assign a feeling to the sensation.
Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?
The sensations are neutral.
Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?
Those are just thoughts and stories, based in human language. In AE they are just sensations.
So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?
Yes, I see this, thank you. There are just the raw sensations.

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:56 am

Hi Jeff,
There isn’t anyone there to do the seeing/hearing. There are thoughts that reference an I, but those are related to a concept, they are a story, in AE there is just image and sound.
Yes.
Yes, I see this, thank you. There are just the raw sensations.
Great. Now let’s examine the pure sensations without the labels. In reality, there are only 3 types of sensations. Pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. But usually the neutral ones are ignored, we hardly notice them. All the negative emotions generate unpleasant sensations, and in reality there is no difference in sensation of ‘sadness’, ‘anger’, ‘fear’, etc. There might be differences of the location and the intensity of the sensations, but the ‘feeling’ is the same. All these sensations feel contracted (actually the muscles are contracted). That’s why they are unpleasant.

The pleasant sensations are just the opposite of contraction, they feel open, expanded (because the muscles are relaxed) That’s why they feel pleasant. ‘Love’, ‘peace’, ‘calmness’, ‘gratitude’… these are all expanded sensations. The pure sensations of them are the same. There might be difference in location and intensity, but that’s all.

For the exercise you’ll have to bring up certain emotions, both pleasant and unpleasant ones. You don’t have to dive deeply into the unpleasant ones, you just bring up them lightly, just enough intensity that you can observe the underlying sensations.

So bring up the memory of ‘sadness’. When the sensation is present, don’t pay attention to the thought story, just stay with the pure sensation for a minute.
After about a minute let go of the sensation labelled ‘sadness’, and try to slightly feel ‘fear’ (just gently). Let go all thoughts, and just feel the pure sensation.
Now try to feel the sensation of ‘anger’ for a little while. Then let it go. Let your body calm down.
So, could you see that all the negative emotions felt very similar, contracted and unpleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?


Now bring up the feeling of ‘love’, and pay attention only to the pure sensation. Let it be there for a while.
Then bring up the feeling of ‘peace’, observe the sensation carefully.
Now bring up the feeling of ‘gratitude’, and stay with a sensation as long as you like.
So, could you see that all the positive emotions felt very similar, expanded, pleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?


And now the last step. Bring up just the feeling of an unpleasant sensation. You don’t even have to label it, just feel it. When the sensation is present observe it very carefully.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘unpleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY unpleasant?


Now, bring up a pleasant sensation, stay with it for a while, and observe it carefully.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘pleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY pleasant?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:47 pm

Hi Vivien,

Sorry, I won't be able to reply today. Thanks again for all your help.

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:51 pm

Hi Jeff,

No problem. Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:54 pm

Hi Vivien,
So, could you see that all the negative emotions felt very similar, contracted and unpleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?
Yes, I see this I didn’t realize this, they are all contracted.
So, could you see that all the positive emotions felt very similar, expanded, pleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?
Yes, I see this, they all felt very similar.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘unpleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY unpleasant?
No the sensation itself, is just a sensation, it is neutral, the labels give it a story
Now, bring up a pleasant sensation, stay with it for a while, and observe it carefully.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘pleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY pleasant?
No it is just a sensation, in fact some sensations I label are positive or negative depending on the situation. For example, I can have “butterflies in my stomach” when I am excited for something or when I am dreading something. The labels give the sensations stories.

-Jeff

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Vivien
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:05 am

Hi Jeff,
No it is just a sensation, in fact some sensations I label are positive or negative depending on the situation. For example, I can have “butterflies in my stomach” when I am excited for something or when I am dreading something. The labels give the sensations stories.
Yes, nice looking.

Now, let’s investigate the notion of awareness or consciousness, or in other words the knower.

When it’s seen that a seer, taster, smeller, feeler, thinker, etc. cannot be found, the identification often goes to the seeming appearance of a self-existent, self-aware awareness, which is the knower of everything that appears.

So the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification, “I am that which is aware”…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object). And the identification with awareness is an excellent hiding place for the separate self.

Does this belief has come up for you “I = awareness”?
Or the belief that there is a stand-alone independent awareness / consciousness that is aware of what is going on?


I don’t know if you have this assumption that “ I = awareness” or the existence of an independent awareness, but nevertheless, let’s investigate this.

In English, awareness is a noun, not a verb. Nouns imply agencies, or entities.
But can such thing be found as an independently existing awareness?

Stop for a moment now and take a thought. Be aware of the presence of the thought.
Can a thought be separated from the knowing or awareness of it?
Try your best to separate the two from each other. What happens?


Is there a dividing line between the thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
Can you find the line where the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?

Can you find a thought without the knowing of it?

Can you find knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, color, sound, taste, smell)?
In other words, can there be a knowing without a known?


Repeat this exercise many times during the day. Experiment not just only with verbal thoughts, but also with visual thoughts, sounds, taste, etc. Let me know how it went.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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jeffreywill
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Re: Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

Postby jeffreywill » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:32 am

Hi Vivien,
Does this belief has come up for you “I = awareness”?
Or the belief that there is a stand-alone independent awareness / consciousness that is aware of what is going on?
Yes this belief is strong with me, the idea of a watcher, something that is aware.
In English, awareness is a noun, not a verb. Nouns imply agencies, or entities.
But can such thing be found as an independently existing awareness?
No, awareness is not something that can be found.
Stop for a moment now and take a thought. Be aware of the presence of the thought.
Can a thought be separated from the knowing or awareness of it?
Try your best to separate the two from each other. What happens?
When I try to separate the two from each other, only more thoughts come along about them being separate. I can’t distinguish between the thought and the knowing.
Is there a dividing line between the thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
Can you find the line where the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?
No, I can’t find a point where the thought ends and the knowing starts.
Can you find a thought without the knowing of it?
I can’t find the knowing….but I am aware of the thought. They are the same thing, or just thoughts about knowing.
Can you find knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, color, sound, taste, smell)?
In other words, can there be a knowing without a known?
Ah, no I can’t. Without a sensation or thought there is no knowing, therefore a knower does not exist in AE.
Repeat this exercise many times during the day. Experiment not just only with verbal thoughts, but also with visual thoughts, sounds, taste, etc. Let me know how it went.
When I know that I am aware of no sensations, there is a thought that tells me so. Yet, I experience thoughts and sensations from a unique perspective. If there is no knower then why is this experience just from my point of view? I don’t experience thoughts or sensations of others. I only experience sounds/sights close to me. I struggle with this, if there are just thoughts and sensations then what’s the point of each unique human perspective/experience?

-Jeff


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