Fear decreasing

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:14 am

Hi Nameless,
You did a very nice looking :)
only hearing happening.
How is it known that hearing is happening?
What is the AE of hearing? Is it a sound, color, smell, taste, sensation or thought?


Hearing is a verb. A verb needs a doer, a subject, that is performing the action of hearing.

Is there an ACTUAL action performed?
Can this action of hearing be actually experienced?
Or only a sound can be experienced?


Is in everyday language we assume that there are 3 things:
1. Hearer
2. Hearing
3. Heard

You have seen that there is no hearer.
Now I’m asking if there is hearing actually going on?
Or all we can say that there is the AE of a sound?


Look at whatever is in front of you.

How is it known that the eyes see?
Focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing?

Now zoom back in and try to find the act of seeing. Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen?

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:31 pm

How is it known that hearing is happening?
it is not known that 'hearing' is happening. only thought says that hearing is happening, and that is said after a noise/sound appeared/arose. i'm not sure if 'appeared' or 'arose' would be the correct word(s) here.
What is the AE of hearing? Is it a sound, color, smell, taste, sensation or thought?
sound, or as i've called it, noise. same thing? i will refer to it as sound from this point forward as that is the only word that is being used.
Is there an ACTUAL action performed?
i can not find an action being performed
Can this action of hearing be actually experienced?
no action, no action can be experienced.
Or only a sound can be experienced?
only sound
Now I’m asking if there is hearing actually going on?
a sound is heard, but no hearing...i don't understand this...no one heard the sound, now i want to say that ...or thought says: hearing was happening, but i just stated yesterday and today a number of times that hearing doesn't even happen, flickering happening here, or not seeing clearly again. hearing implies a hearer? why not "heard" imply a hearer? "Heard" past tense, not what is actually happening. AE can not be experienced in the past or past tense. when hearing is happening (i just said that doesn't happen, but i'm going to finish the thought here) it is not known that hearing or sound or it doesn't know anything in that moment, there's just the experience of sound.
Or all we can say that there is the AE of a sound?
:) just the experience of sound
How is it known that the eyes see?
it is not known that the eyes see when looking
Focus on the sensation labelled ‘eyes’. Is this sensation doing the seeing?
i don't even know that eyes actually exist, there is not AE of eyes.
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?
only thought, memory that says the image is called, 'eyes.'
Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing?
no, but thoughts seem to be behind eyes saying that seeing happens from this place behind the eyes...behind, and just above the eyes. :) Seems.
Now zoom back in and try to find the act of seeing. Is there an actual act of seeing going on, or is there just what’s seen?
it's like thoughts come in after what's seen--over and over and this creates the illusion of seeing, of time, of things happening in sequence. Like AE happens and then thoughts make comments about AE...but thoughts can't do anything but appear. but you did say thoughts can point to AE or not point to AE.

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience? no. thoughts say they are separate, and thoughts seem very convincing...it's like the comments of thoughts or contents of thought are real and AE is missed totally most of the time for me. but thoughts Seem to come after AE, but AE of thoughts can happen, too. something is "Late." if that makes sense...i will sit with this later, time to get ready for work.

Thanks for the time you give me, Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:11 am

Hi Nameless,
V: What is the AE of hearing? Is it a sound, color, smell, taste, sensation or thought?
N: sound, or as i've called it, noise. same thing? i will refer to it as sound from this point forward as that is the only word that is being used.
But sound is NOT the AE of hearing, but the AE of sound ONLY.
Hearing is an act. But as you have already seen there is no AE of an act of seeing.
There is only the AE of a sound.

But the sound is NOT the AE of an act of hearing. Can you see this?
There is ZERO AE of hearing. Since there is no act. Is this clear?

hearing implies a hearer? why not "heard" imply a hearer? "Heard" past tense, not what is actually happening. AE can not be experienced in the past or past tense. when hearing is happening (i just said that doesn't happen, but i'm going to finish the thought here) it is not known that hearing or sound or it doesn't know anything in that moment, there's just the experience of sound.
It's not just about that a verb would imply a doer, a hearer, but also that hearing is a verb, which describes an action.

But is there an act (or action) of hearing going on?
How hearing (as an act) is being done?
.but thoughts can't do anything but appear. but you did say thoughts can point to AE or not point to AE.
I don’t mean the words ‘point to’ literally.
Rather that certain thoughts are ABOUT other thoughts, or ABOUT the AE.

Like saying: “I am sad that fiend said nasty things” – this is example of thoughts are ABOUT or pointing to only other thoughts.

If the thought would ABOUT the AE, POINT TO the AE, then it would say: “there is a sensation, and the thought label ‘sadness’.”

Can you see the difference?

thoughts seem very convincing...
Let’s investigate what makes thoughts convincing. Try not to think about it, but rather look at thoughts and try to find something that is actually making thoughts convincing. What can you find?
V: Can you find anything behind the eyes that are seeing?
N: no, but thoughts seem to be behind eyes saying that seeing happens from this place behind the eyes...behind, and just above the eyes. :) Seems.
All right. Thoughts are saying all sorts of things. Let’s check if they are talking the ‘truth’ :)

Try to find the exact spot behind the eyes where the me seemingly reside.
Look for a SENSATION.
The sense of self is nothing else than a sensation that is mistaken as me.

Which sensation is the me?

When you have found the sense of me, then just spend lots of time FEELING this sensation.

And investigate: how is it known exactly that this sensation is the me, which is looking out of the eyes, and where thoughts are coming from?


Pay attention to this sensation during the day as often as you can. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:11 am

But the sound is NOT the AE of an act of hearing. Can you see this?
Yes
There is ZERO AE of hearing. Since there is no act. Is this clear?
Yes. that was seen yesterday, and seen again, now. how quickly it was forgotten
But is there an act (or action) of hearing going on?
no, thoughts only say there is--immediately after sound appears
How hearing (as an act) is being done?
i feel frustrated b/c it's seen, literally for 2 or 3 seconds that no hearing is happening, no hearer present, then thoughts say: of course hearing is happening, you can hear the fan from the laptop, the motorcycle that just drove by....blah blah blah
Can you see the difference?
Yes, that's understood
Try not to think about it, but rather look at thoughts and try to find something that is actually making thoughts convincing. What can you find?
when i'm 'lost in thought/not paying attention to AE. also, (i know you said try not to think) but i think/thought appears: i'm just so conditioned, i was trained to believe most of my thoughts. "Who was trained?" Who's thoughts? Who's conditioned?
Which sensation is the me?
i can't find an exact spot that is me. there are different sensations inside the head, on the face...any sensation paid attention to can bring the sense of self. i tried this with eyes open and closed; i can not find an exact spot/or what it seems like you expect me to find. perhaps i just need to spend more time with this.
And investigate: how is it known exactly that this sensation is the me, which is looking out of the eyes, and where thoughts are coming from?
Any sensation that is looked at/experienced directly is clearly seen to not be me. i know i'm not answering your question here.....can't find that 'exact' spot.
Let me know what you find.
i know i'm not answering your question, but one thing was experienced when just feeling sensation(s) in the head: i have no head. there are sensations, but no head, no 'other' objects, like what has been experienced or seen recently: there's no dividing line between 'things'

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:32 am

Hi Nameless,
i feel frustrated b/c it's seen, literally for 2 or 3 seconds that no hearing is happening, no hearer present, then thoughts say: of course hearing is happening, you can hear the fan from the laptop, the motorcycle that just drove by....blah blah blah
Just because it can be seen that there is no hearing happening, it doesn’t mean that thoughts will stop saying that there is hearing and I am the hearer. It doesn’t matter what thoughts say. You just have to check it in experience again and again if thoughts are telling the truth or not. But don’t expect them to stop telling stories. They won’t.
V: Try not to think about it, but rather look at thoughts and try to find something that is actually making thoughts convincing. What can you find?
N: when i'm 'lost in thought/not paying attention to AE. also, (i know you said try not to think) but i think/thought appears: i'm just so conditioned, i was trained to believe most of my thoughts. "Who was trained?" Who's thoughts? Who's conditioned?
These are very good questions.

What I was trying to point to with the question “what is making thoughts convincing?” is that there is nothing outside or inside thoughts that makes thoughts ACTUALLY convincing.
Thoughts being convincing just another belief, just the content of a thought. Can you see this?
i can't find an exact spot that is me. there are different sensations inside the head, on the face...any sensation paid attention to can bring the sense of self. i tried this with eyes open and closed; i can not find an exact spot/or what it seems like you expect me to find. perhaps i just need to spend more time with this.
It FEELS LIKE AS IF there were a me inside the body, inside the head.
This FEELING of me is like a shape-shifter.

Sometimes it shows up as a FEELING behind the eyes, as the FEELING that I am here inside the head behind the eyes looking out to the world.
Sometimes this FEELING of me moves to the forehead, as being the thinker of thoughts.
Some other times, the FEELING of me is in the throat, as the one who is talking.
When an emotion is present, this FEELING of me is often shows up in the chest.
So your job is to follow this movement of the me, and FEEL IT.

The emphasis is on the FEELING.
The point is to discover that this FEELING OF ME is nothing else than a plain sensation, not different from the sensation of the sole of the feet.

So as you read this text, where is the FEELING of ME right now?

You FEEL that you are here, sitting and reading.
You FEEL that you are somewhere inside this body, probably in the head.
Find this FEELING that I am here reading off the screen.
Do you feel it?

So the point is to FEELING those sensations ONLY as sensations. Nothing more, nothing less.
See them as sensations - only. Like a sensation in the foot, or stomach, or hand, or head. Sensations. Radically ordinary. Bereft of meaning.

So just FEEL the sensation as sensation.
The task is to see what is there for what it is.
To give things their true name.
A sensation in the head is a sensation.


And see this again and again and again and again….. hundreds of times.
Please let me know how it goes.

Any sensation that is looked at/experienced directly is clearly seen to not be me. i know i'm not answering your question here.....can't find that 'exact' spot.
Very good!
i know i'm not answering your question, but one thing was experienced when just feeling sensation(s) in the head: i have no head. there are sensations, but no head, no 'other' objects, like what has been experienced or seen recently: there's no dividing line between 'things'
Excellent observations!

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:50 pm

Thoughts being convincing just another belief, just the content of a thought. Can you see this?
Yes. :) thank you
So as you read this text, where is the FEELING of ME right now?
in the head. yes, i understand that sensations in the body give the sense of 'me.' i find that labeling sensation as sensation is happening more and more, and when that happens there is generally an immediate relaxation if the sense of me is coming from being tense or stressed, and also when sensation is labeled as sensation it helps bring me back to what's more in line with the immediate environment
Do you feel it?
yes, pretty much any place i put my attention.
And see this again and again and again and again….. hundreds of times.
Please let me know how it goes.
OK, this is hilarious lol lol. Ok, i read your response this morning and had to leave and one of the places i had to go was an hour away into the city to the car dealership. so when i got there i just got triggered all over the place and stayed that way until i got home about 5 hours later, maybe thought about this whole thing 3 times. got home, sat down to answer the questions, and 'thought': can't answer these b/c i didn't do it. so i got up to mow the yard which takes an hour and thought i would practice while doing that. hahaha, never thought of it once! came in and remembered all of a sudden. so got right into the shower and was feeling only sensations. lol lol lol I HAVE NO BODY! THERE IS NO ME! damn it, it only lasted a few seconds, so you know i practiced like my hair was on fire---and it happened again for a few seconds. i just laugh out loud every 5 - 15 minutes now. that was so freaky...awesome! wow lol again. thanks for the pointing Vivien...even though i know there's no Vivien. lol how is this happening, it feels so real. And another thing i don't understand is that after i got out of the shower i was hungry and forgot all about this amazing experience for a few minutes. what the hell? how can 'someone' have an experience like that and forget it minutes later? oh yeah, there's no one forgetting...but yeah, why would forgetting happen after THAT?

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:49 am

Hi Nameless,
in the head. yes, i understand that sensations in the body give the sense of 'me.' i find that labeling sensation as sensation is happening more and more, and when that happens there is generally an immediate relaxation if the sense of me is coming from being tense or stressed, and also when sensation is labeled as sensation it helps bring me back to what's more in line with the immediate environment
Yes. Please include the sensations of heads too. Very often the sense of self seemingly appears in the head, as the seer, or the hearer of the sounds, or the thinker, or even in the throat as the speaker.
Try to observe these too. Let me know what you find.
so got right into the shower and was feeling only sensations. lol lol lol I HAVE NO BODY! THERE IS NO ME! damn it, it only lasted a few seconds, so you know i practiced like my hair was on fire---and it happened again for a few seconds. i just laugh out loud every 5 - 15 minutes now. that was so freaky...awesome! wow lol again.
Beautiful :)
even though i know there's no Vivien. lol how is this happening, it feels so real. And another thing i don't understand is that after i got out of the shower i was hungry and forgot all about this amazing experience for a few minutes. what the hell? how can 'someone' have an experience like that and forget it minutes later? oh yeah, there's no one forgetting...but yeah, why would forgetting happen after THAT?
The ’intellect’/thoughts want to know everything! :) It happened because of a conditioned pattern of thinking. Going back to the same illusion after seeing happened is totally normal and inevitable. The important thing is to be able to see it again and again when looking. Seeing that there is no self whatsoever. But it doesn’t mean that in the next minute the self won’t be taken as rear again. It will. But upon each looking it can be seen again and again, that there is nothing there.

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

So can anyone/anything be found that is believing in thoughts?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?


It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:11 am

Try to observe these too. Let me know what you find.
While observing sensations in the head throughout the day with eyes open and while engaged in numerous other activities it's much more difficult for me see that i'm not in the head (remembering to do that while talking didn't happen). it's more like i'm some invisible witness to sensations in the head.
Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
No
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?
No
Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
No
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?
No
Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
No
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?
No
Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
No, this was more difficult to see than all of the others.
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?
No
Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
No
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?
No
Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
No
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?
No
So can anyone/anything be found that is believing in thoughts?
for some reason, i can't see all the way through the illusion right now---for the past hour. i can see thought as thought, but i'm stuck as the observer. but 'saw' with your first question regarding no thinker. Today lots of thoughts challenging the validity of what was experienced yesterday in the shower. Since 2006 i've had experiences of no one here, being perfect stillness, lots of 'openings' and never once challenged the validity/truth. I knew it was the truth, so i wonder why now lots of challenging happening today.
Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?
only the 'i thought' says it's the experiencer, but no.

Simple, yes; always easy? sometimes, but not always easy for 'me.'

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:28 am

Hi Nameless,
While observing sensations in the head throughout the day with eyes open and while engaged in numerous other activities it's much more difficult for me see that i'm not in the head (remembering to do that while talking didn't happen). it's more like i'm some invisible witness to sensations in the head.
Yes, it is harder with open eyes, but this is something you have to look at.

Just sit down and look around the room.
Is there a ‘me’ inside the head, looking out if the eyes?

If it seems yes, try to find the location of that ‘me’. Hint: that location is a sensation.
So find the sensations that is mistakenly labelled as ‘me looking outside the eye’.
Stay with this sensation, and just FEEL it as a plain sensation.
You can even label it: “It’s not a self, it’s a sensation only”.

After some practice, try to do the same while doing certain activities, like preparing food, having a shower, washing your teeth, gardening, etc.
Let me know how it goes.

If the self comes up as a seeming witness, then ask:
How is it known that there is a witness?
for some reason, i can't see all the way through the illusion right now---for the past hour. i can see thought as thought, but i'm stuck as the observer.
Is there an ACTUAL observer, or only thoughts suggest that there is an observer?
Is there an ACTUAL witness, or only thoughts suggest that there is a witness?
V: Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
N: No, this was more difficult to see than all of the others.
All right. It’s seem to be a sticky one, and it is very important to see clearly that there is no such thing as a feeler.
So whenever a sensation is noticed, ask:

What is it that is feeling this sensation? – then look
Is there a feeler? Where is it? – and look
Since 2006 i've had experiences of no one here, being perfect stillness, lots of 'openings' and never once challenged the validity/truth. I knew it was the truth, so i wonder why now lots of challenging happening today.
As we talked about this before, this was just a peak experience, a state. And NONE of the states are permanent. States come and go. But seeing no-self is not a state. With lots of looking no-self becomes factual. So please don’t expect to get back to those states. If you are expecting that, you will be disappointed. Seeing through the self is not about being in the state of perfects stillness. It’s not even about the illusion of self going away.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:47 am

Is there a ‘me’ inside the head, looking out if the eyes?
no, only thoughts say there is and sensations that are not me.
Let me know how it goes.
i need more time with this question. will try to do this as much as possible from now on, forgetting happens a lot, more so in the past several days for some reason, or for no reason at all.
How is it known that there is a witness?
it is not known, only thoughts say there is a witness. but what witnesses the thought? Or how is the thought known? Another thought says it's known. but what notices that thought? Thoughts appear and they're believed; like i believe what i see, hear, taste, smell, and feel.
Is there an ACTUAL observer, or only thoughts suggest that there is an observer?
only thoughts saying there's an observer.
[/quote]Is there an ACTUAL witness, or only thoughts suggest that there is a witness?[/quote] only thoughts saying there's a witness.
So whenever a sensation is noticed, ask: i will try (haha, i can't do anything b/c i don't exist) but i'll try to remember to do that as often as i can; i really want to get off the merry go round. ...Who wants to get off the merry go round?? Another thought.

What is it that is feeling this sensation? – then look
Is there a feeler? Where is it? – and look
Doing that now.....flickering again, but it is seen: no feeler, just pure sensation. no feeler, no distress/no nameless, no stress.....seemingly

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:09 am

Hi Nameless,
V: So find the sensations that is mistakenly labelled as ‘me looking outside the eye’.
Stay with this sensation, and just FEEL it as a plain sensation.
You can even label it: “It’s not a self, it’s a sensation only”.
After some practice, try to do the same while doing certain activities, like preparing food, having a shower, washing your teeth, gardening, etc.
Let me know how it goes.
N: i need more time with this question. will try to do this as much as possible from now on, forgetting happens a lot, more so in the past several days for some reason, or for no reason at all.
This exercise is crucial in seeing through the illusion. So please spend as much time with it as possible.
If forgetting happens too often, you can even set a timer on your phone every hour or half an hour to look.
This needs to be seen literally hundreds of times.

So stay with it exercise for several days, and let me know how it goes.
but it is seen: no feeler, just pure sensation. no feeler, no distress/no nameless, no stress.....seemingly
Seeing that there is no feeler is also very important, especially when an emotion is present.
So include this also to your looking throughout the day.

Whenever there is an emotion there, or a pain, or a discomfort, of feeling hot or cold, then ask:
What is feeling this emotion/sensation/pain/discomfort?
Let me know how it goes.
it is not known, only thoughts say there is a witness. but what witnesses the thought? Or how is the thought known? Another thought says it's known. but what notices that thought? Thoughts appear and they're believed; like i believe what i see, hear, taste, smell, and feel.
Your questions assume that experience has 3 elements:

- an experiencer / noticer / witness
- the experienced / noticed / witnessed
- the process of experiencing / noticing / witnessing, which is linking the other two

But in reality, there are not 3 things there, there is only one.

Is there a thought + the knowing of it?
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
Where does the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?
Is this witness you talk about something separate from all the rest?

Noticing happens - how do you know the witness or a noticer is what notices?
Does the witness/noticer have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this witness/noticer?
Is witness/noticer something other than, different to, or separate from experience?
Can you find anything at all that is called "witness/noticer", or do you just find experience?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:44 am

So stay with it exercise for several days, and let me know how it goes.
the intention is to stay with all the exercises you give until Liberation happens. i get that seeing must happen as often as possible on a daily basis until Liberation, and apparently after, too. So being with that exercise today and for sometime last night, what is noticed is that thoughts are super 'strong and numerous,' amped up so to speak. Staying with sensations with Eyes Open, seems to make the difference between being able to see through the illusion and not being able to see through the illusion. Not having the success i want here with the eyes open, but i will keep at it. i'm not finding it hard to have patience with myself with this so that's a plus.
What is feeling this emotion/sensation/pain/discomfort?
Let me know how it goes.
so same going on here as above: with eyes closed i can almost always see through to the no feeler/experiencer/etc, but with eyes open, no success as of the past day and a half. No problem, i'll just keep at it.
Is there a thought + the knowing of it?
no it's one thing, although there are times when it seems like the knowing of it comes a second or nano second after the arising of sight/sound/sensation/thought/etc (eyes were closed)
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
no, eyes closed
Where does the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?
no separation, 'they' arise/appear together, at the same time. eyes closed, again.
Is this witness you talk about something separate from all the rest?
not separate from thought. it took much longer to see that 'it's' not separate from sound or sensations either---only seen briefly, then 'gone,' but seen nonetheless. It's all the same 'thing.'
Noticing happens - how do you know the witness or a noticer is what notices?
that is a thought that says there is a witness/separate self/entity AFTER seeing, sound, sensation, smell, taste, appearance of thought
Does the witness/noticer have a shape, a location, a weight?
no
Can you point to this witness/noticer?
no
Is witness/noticer something other than, different to, or separate from experience?
No, not something from the experience
Can you find anything at all that is called "witness/noticer", or do you just find experience?
no. just experience when looking

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Vivien
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:02 am

Hi Nameless,
so same going on here as above: with eyes closed i can almost always see through to the no feeler/experiencer/etc, but with eyes open, no success as of the past day and a half. No problem, i'll just keep at it.
And what makes it difficult with open eyes?
Where does the seeming me appear with open eyes?
no it's one thing, although there are times when it seems like the knowing of it comes a second or nano second after the arising of sight/sound/sensation/thought/etc (eyes were closed)
Let’s try to look at the same questions, but this time with open eyes.
Fix the eyes on a plain surface, like a wall or the surface of a table.
Is there a thought + the knowing of it?
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
Where does the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?


Keep the eyes on the wall, but this time focus on a sensation, like the sensations of the hand.
Do not look directly to the hand, look at the wall, but feel the sensations of the hand.
Is there a sensation + the knowing of it?
Is there a dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of it?
Where does the sensation ends and the knowing of it starts?


Now do the same, but this time look at the hand directly, while at the same time feel the sensation of the hand.
Is there a sensation + the knowing of it?
Is there a dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of it?
Where does the sensation ends and the knowing of it starts?


If it seems that there is a separate knower somewhere while looking at the hand, try find that knower.
Where is it? Is in in the head? In the eyes? Behind the eyes? Or where exactly?

While still both looking and feeling the hand, try to find the FEELER itself.
Where is the FEELER that is feeling the sensations in the hand?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:47 am

And what makes it difficult with open eyes?
seems like more distractions
Where does the seeming me appear with open eyes?
thoughts and sensations, again, thoughts seem to 'get louder' with eyes open
Is there a thought + the knowing of it?
i did look at a plain surface last night thinking that might help; it did help tonight even though what's in the peripheral vision was super distracting at first. tonight saw it once that thought and the knowing of it are not two separate things, they arise together.
Is there a dividing line between a thought and the knowing of it?
seen again, no
Where does the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?
thought and knowing of thought arise together/simultaneously
Is there a sensation + the knowing of it?
finally seen, no
Is there a dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of it?
seen again, no
Where does the sensation ends and the knowing of it starts?
there is no division, they are one in the same thing, like they are 'inside each other'---reminds me of the yin yang symbol
Is there a sensation + the knowing of it?
only seen for a couple of seconds, but seen nevertheless: not 2 things
Is there a dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of it?
no, again, it's like the knowing is inside/part of the sensations and the sensation is inside/part of the knowing--it's all one thing, same thing
Where does the sensation ends and the knowing of it starts?
no division
Where is it? Is in in the head? In the eyes? Behind the eyes? Or where exactly?
it SEEMS like a separate knower is 'in' the thoughts mostly, until it's seen that no one is looking out of the eyes or the head, that doesn't even exist
Where is the FEELER that is feeling the sensations in the hand?
Looking, i can't find a separate feeler. if there is a feeler it is 'in' the sensation and the knowing of the sensation, it would be part of the sensation/knowing of the sensation. just one thing...now i'm reminded of the 'holy trinity,' the three in One 'thing.'

Thanks for your help.

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Vivien
Posts: 2794
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:11 am

Hi Nameless,

You did a nice looking.
Looking, i can't find a separate feeler. if there is a feeler it is 'in' the sensation and the knowing of the sensation, it would be part of the sensation/knowing of the sensation. just one thing...now i'm reminded of the 'holy trinity,' the three in One 'thing.'
The feeler isn’t in the sensation either – this would be just another speculation.

Pay attention to the sensation of the hand.

Is there a FEELER inside the sensation? Or only thoughts talk about a feeler?
Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?
it SEEMS like a separate knower is 'in' the thoughts mostly, until it's seen that no one is looking out of the eyes or the head, that doesn't even exist
Here is an exercise, you can do anywhere at any time. It helps to see again and again that the sense of self is nothing else then just a sensation. You can make this practice into a habit.

First localize where this sense of me appears inside the body.
Your job is to stalk and trap this Nameless in a net of attention.

Let's go straight for the most obvious example of me inside.
Where does Nameless/me feel most prevalent?

The intensity of the ‘sense of self’ can vary, and there are times when the ‘me’ really shows up let’s say behind the eyes, inside the head.
When it does, fix in with precision to that place the ‘me’ occupies.
Hold it for a while in this net of attention.
Look and see, is this me-behind-the-eyes-in-the-head anything but sensation?

Look again precisely where the ‘me’ feels to be, the sensation behind the eyes, maybe not right at the back of the skull, but closer in? Somewhere around the centre, but towards the eyes perhaps? Feel into that space, the sensations there, and just spend a couple of minutes feeling those sensations as sensations. Nothing more, nothing less. Just what they are - sensations.

Treat thoughts as just voices-off. Ignore them. Focus on the sensations, the one's that feel most me-like.

See them as sensations - only. Like a sensation in the foot, or stomach, or hand, or head. Sensations. Radically ordinary. Bereft of meaning.

So for the next few days, I would like to ask you to focus your attention to this sensation as often as you can during the day (hundreds of times).

Just keep the attention on the sensation, and just make a repeated recognition that this sensation is just a sensation.
Nothing more.


So just FEEL the sensation as sensation.
The task is to see what is there for what it is.
To give things their true name.
A sensation in the head is a sensation.


And see this again and again and again and again….. hundreds of times.
Please let me know how it goes.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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