Fear decreasing

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:03 am

Just because someone telling you to stand up, does this mean that there is volition?
absolutely not
Does the sentence on the screen #1 “stand up” made the body to stand up?
no
Does #2 the thought” Vivien told me to stand up, so I will do what she said” made the body to stand up?
no
Does the last thought #4 know about #1, #2, or #3?
impossible
Where is the volition in this process?
thoughts only say there is volition
Is there a volition or only thought #4 suggests that there is a volition?
thought suggests there is volition
Is there anything here proving the existence of an ‘I’?
no. only thoughts say there is an i
Please observe during the day as often as you can remember how decision is made and if there is a chooser or a decider in experience. Please let me know how it goes.
Watching actions/body moving, speaking it was seen that there is no chooser/decider, seeing clearly often, today, how words just flow out---no prior knowledge of what was going to be spoken, actions performed, but no one directing/telling/deciding/choosing, just movements happening and words flowing from the mouth. the sense was that 'i' was the observer, but definitely not the decider of actions or words. it has been in the past, and again, today was seen clearly that nameless is not choosing much of anything. i'm sure nameless doesn't choose anything, but there were some times today it felt like i was choosing, but i did more looking today than normal, so probably why i saw more often that there really is no person choosing to perform actions or choosing what words will come out of the mouth next. it's like being on auto pilot. Light on, no one home.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:22 am

Hi Nameless,

You did a nice looking.

Investigate the followings one-by-one very carefully. Spend several minutes with each question.

Is there a control over ‘sensations’?
Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?
Is there a control over ‘sounds’?
Is there a control over ‘image/color’?
Is there a control over ‘smells’?
Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

Is there a control over anything?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:29 am

Is there a control over ‘sensations’?
no
Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?
no
Is there a control over ‘sounds’?
no
Is there a control over ‘image/color’?
no
Is there a control over ‘smells’?
no
Is there a control over ‘tastes’?
no
Is there a control over anything?
no. took a little longer to see no control over these things bc thoughts "trying to convince" "me" of how there is control. surprises me that i would say that thoughts are trying to convince me of anything b/c i KNOW that thoughts can't do anything, and the experience has been had of no me, no one home, not this body. "surprises me..." is just another thought, too. and everything said after that is thought, too

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:37 am

Hi Nameless,
no. took a little longer to see no control over these things bc thoughts "trying to convince" "me" of how there is control. surprises me that i would say that thoughts are trying to convince me of anything b/c i KNOW that thoughts can't do anything, and the experience has been had of no me, no one home, not this body. "surprises me..." is just another thought, too. and everything said after that is thought, too
Excellent looking :)

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.


Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:11 am

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Looking again....no such thing as a chooser
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
Yes
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise
sometimes when not looking, it can seem like there is such a thing as a chooser and and some free will, but when looking is happening it is clear that there is neither. not sure how to say this so it makes sense....more and more, immediately after an action has been performed or while speaking it's clear that "I" am not doing any of it---like on auto pilot; not sure if that is LOOKING, or something else...?? that is a question to you please. :) part of my question here, too, is when you ask above if it's "totally" clear, does that mean that it's clear all the time? or can i answer yes to your first two questions if when looking i can see...or it's seen clearly?
Can it be known how tall the body is?
"i' even stood up...thoughts saying: 'I'm going to look in every crevice and crack, leave no stone unturned, as far as able to make sure "i" see the truth.' Answer: No
Does the body have a weight or volume?
no
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
I almost feel like i'm on acid...Answer: No. (who feels like they're on acid?) noticing is happening.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
no. this is weird :)
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
geeze, no. it's like the chair and my laptop and the body are one thing, but none of them have shapes or forms
Is there an inside or an outside?
More flickering, but when paying attention to pure sensation only, there is no such thing as an inside or outside. i like that feeling. who likes that feeling? ...thoughts 'talking.'
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
a thought? maybe some sensations?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
there isn't one.

it took me more than 15 minutes to answer these questions, but i'm ok with that.

Thank you for taking the time to help me.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:18 am

Hi Nameless,
that is a question to you please. :) part of my question here, too, is when you ask above if it's "totally" clear, does that mean that it's clear all the time? or can i answer yes to your first two questions if when looking i can see...or it's seen clearly?
Once the self or the chooser has clearly seen through, every time when LOOKING happens it can be clearly seen again and again that there is nothing there. But it doesn’t mean that the illusion of the self or chooser won’t rearrange itself in the next moment when not looking. The illusion of the self/chooser won’t go away and it even can be taken as real again and again, but every time when looking happens, it can be seen again and again that there is no self at all.

You did a very nice looking with the body :)

Here is a little exercise. With eyes closed, put one of the hands on a desk or a table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only the sensation?
When both verbal and visual thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only the pure sensation?

Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Let’s see if there is a connection between a visual image and sensations.

Here is an exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from the visual image/color meaning the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’).


1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the image/color, the ‘object’ seen (hand).

But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the image/color? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the image/color (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the image/color and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

So you can repeat this with all of the body parts below, one-by-one.
- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

What do you find?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:37 am

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Pure sensation doesn't even suggest there is a hand or an arm rest, so no. (I used the arm rest of my sofa, instead of a table)
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only the sensation?
:) as above, no.
When both verbal and visual thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only the pure sensation?
Only pure sensation.
Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
No. this took a while to see; this is why seeing doesn't happen sometimes---because "i" don't have the time it takes to see through the illusion. the first question you asked was easy to see, for 'me.' but this still takes time for 'me.' that still doesn't make sense...like who or what has to keep seeing through the illusion? thoughts can't see, think, understand, or do anything.
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No.
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the image/color? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the image/color (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
I can't get this one, it does SEEM like the sensation is coming from the hand. I'm super tired, 8 hours in the sun with my family today, hopefully when i try tomorrow morning, i'll be able to see what you're pointing to. i just can't get it tonight.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:13 am

Hi Nameless,
Pure sensation doesn't even suggest there is a hand or an arm rest, so no. (I used the arm rest of my sofa, instead of a table)
Nice looking.
V: Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
N: No. this took a while to see; this is why seeing doesn't happen sometimes---because "i" don't have the time it takes to see through the illusion. the first question you asked was easy to see, for 'me.' but this still takes time for 'me.' that still doesn't make sense...like who or what has to keep seeing through the illusion? thoughts can't see, think, understand, or do anything.
All right. If you need more time to look at this and the remaining questions that’s alright. We can go in a slower pace if we need to. The more important thing is that you can see these clearly and not to rush through them.

So I suggest you to look at the above questions again + the remaining ones and reply to them again.

By the way, I wanted to mention to you that your comments got much clearer since your one week break! That break was good for you :)

Here is a fascinating experiment showing that correlation between sensations and images is just a fabrication.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlh ... q0RhEFGLeA

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:48 pm

Vivien, I'm glad you're not in a rush. I would like to get through this ASAP, but not at the expense of not seeing everything that needs to be seen. i don't consider just telling you i got it when i didn't get it, "getting through it." I want to have a solid foundation/clear seeing at each step before moving on. Thank you for your patience, it is appreciated.

From yesterday, I will try again and see if the truth can be seen.
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the image/color? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the image/color (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
Only for about a second or two was it clear that only thoughts link them. it was seen twice, but again, only for about a second or two.
Can you see that both the image/color and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
yes, but thoughts want to know...thoughts can't want anything. thoughts began appearing that said, "how did that happen, how was "I" able to see that?" "Which is true?" "I want to see/experience that again!" Blah blah blah. but 'really,' i wants to see again. cool.
So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
sensing and looking again....yes, both appear, but no link. Again, only seen for a second or two at a time.
What do you find?
I find a smile appears on face when seen there is no link, again, only for a second or two at a time. will continue trying this exercise.

Thank you for the link to the video, pretty fascinating. And, I'm glad my comments are clearer to you. Yes, the break was great; not your average break/vacation.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:29 am

Hi Nameless,
I'm glad you're not in a rush. I would like to get through this ASAP, but not at the expense of not seeing everything that needs to be seen. i don't consider just telling you i got it when i didn't get it, "getting through it." I want to have a solid foundation/clear seeing at each step before moving on.
Yes, just as you said the important thing is that you can see things clearly and not how quickly we can get through the questions. I will be here to help you as long as it takes. :)
Only for about a second or two was it clear that only thoughts link them. it was seen twice, but again, only for about a second or two.
All right. That’s good. With this topic, we are not trying to change how we see or look at the world or the body. We are looking at this only to see what is ‘under’ or ‘behind’ of the conceptual overlay. We are looking at the experience directly. But this conceptual overlay doesn’t have to go away. Not at all. It’s not our aim. It’s enough if you can see that it’s just an overlay (like that the sensation is inside the image of the body) and not what is actually going on.
I find a smile appears on face when seen there is no link, again, only for a second or two at a time. will continue trying this exercise.
Nice :)

Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a mental image ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.

If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. But the ‘mind’ constructs a visual thought and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?


Color and shape is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors only.

There is ZERO AE of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct, nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the AE of colors, sensations and thoughts. Can you see this?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:07 pm

Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?
Yes. was able to practice over and over again yesterday. more remembering to practice exercises such as paying attention to pure sensation, for example while washing dishes yesterday...total forgetting while preparing food to cook, lost in thoughts, unpleasant ones of course. that was the trigger, after a while, to pay attention to something else...or remembering just happened.
There is ZERO AE of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct, nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the AE of colors, sensations and thoughts. Can you see this?
I can definitely see that. thoughts appearing and feeling sensations...when eyes closed, no shapes, no dividing lines. when eyes open, see shapes and colors, images/shapes/"dividing lines"/separation. something off here? i am missing something?

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:56 am

Hi Nameless,
.when eyes closed, no shapes, no dividing lines. when eyes open, see shapes and colors, images/shapes/"dividing lines"/separation. something off here? i am missing something?
Close the eyes, and try to find the ‘dividing line between inside and outside.
Can you find any (with closed eyes)?

Now open the eyes, and look at your hand.

Where is the dividing line exactly?
What does the dividing line between inside and outside made of?
What is the dividing line between me and not-me?


Look at the image bellow.

Image

Going along with the image/colors only, is there an ACTUAL dividing line?
Does the colors themselves suggest in any way that this patch of color is ‘me’, and other patches of colors are not-me?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:09 pm

Can you find any (with closed eyes)?
No
Where is the dividing line exactly?
:) there isn't one, only thoughts say there is/are.
What does the dividing line between inside and outside made of?
no dividing line, only thoughts say there is
What is the dividing line between me and not-me?
none, only thoughts say/believe there are.
Going along with the image/colors only, is there an ACTUAL dividing line?
no. it was clear quickly while looking at the image on the screen (thank you for sending, this helped), took longer to see same thing with 'my' hand and sofa in background.
Does the colors themselves suggest in any way that this patch of color is ‘me’, and other patches of colors are not-me?
'In' AE, no. thoughts say there are differences, but contents of thoughts are not real/true.

Thank you for helping to clarify. What i notice lately is that thoughts aren't so 'adamant' about being right. i know thoughts can't do anything, but it's like they are calming down, not ferociously trying to prove 'you and i' wrong. fear continuing to decrease i suppose. i feel very grateful for seeing this Knowledge/Truth. what feels grateful? i'm not going there right now, i feel grateful. is that ok to just allow that to be sometimes? there's a "part of me" that recalls there is no me...and it's time to start getting ready for work also. thought says, "i feel grateful that i feel grateful."

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:36 pm

Hi Nameless,
thought says, "i feel grateful that i feel grateful."
Wonderful :)

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?

Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:54 am

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
No
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
When looking for the 'hearer,' it became: what is looking for the hearer? i guess b/c when hearing was happening, no hearer could be found, or was even be looked for; hearing was just happening.
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?
only hearing happening.
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
only what can be heard.
What do you find?
when hearing is happening, there are no other thoughts or memories or emotions, just noise being heard, the noise being heard isn't labeled or identified. but no entity hearing noise, only the thought: "I heard that." Or other thoughts saying things like: 'that was loud.' that is the fan in the laptop, and other thoughts that had nothing to do with this exercise. and those thoughts appear after hearing happened. Very quickly after hearing happened.
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No inherent hearer can be found. I couldn't find one. lol Even logically it doesn't make sense that there could be a looker if there wasn't a hearer. only thing that suggests a hearer is a thought/concept.


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