Fear decreasing

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:39 pm

Hi Vivien
With looking, you ALWAYS have to LOOK AFRESH and NEVER RELY ON MEMORY of previous looking.
Yes, this is, and had become clear just recently. Don't know who coined the phrase, but seems appropriate here: Repetition is the mother of all clarity.
And btw, what is that could feel the presence or the absence of the ego?
Nothing, not even the body. Ego is only a thought, and thoughts can't sense anything or know anything, that is seen,
So find the thing that is being lost. Where is it? What is it? – look and look and look[/quo] The sense of "I" is 'in' a thought. It is a thought. But after seeing that, I feel something in my chest...sensation and then that feels like, "I," and with continued looking....and this feels like intellectual reasoning and seeing: this sensation in my chest is not me. Then i'm reminded of the AE that noticing and the thing noticed are the same thing, but i can not see this right here, right now, it's coming from memory.
So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it.
I will.
What is it exactly that is lost in thought?
Nothing. If the "I" thought does not come up, it doesn't mean that anything is lost. that is seen here, now. but now thought says that attention gets lost in thought. What is attention??
What is it that could be or not be lost in thoughts?
Nothing can be lost or not lost in a thought. it was noticed that right after that was seen that I felt separate from that thought. The concept of 'inside' and 'outside' popped up, and i'm reminded of the AE, yes, memory here, that it's all one thing, but can not see that or experience that right now. if i waited for that AE before i proceeded, i'm not sure i would post today. So, recalling from memory, or the best of my recollection, the "I" thought does not always arise after EACH thought, perhaps that's why "I" feels lost AFTER the fact? I know i'm still trying to use my intellect here....old habits can be hard to break. I'm asking myself what it is exactly that feels like it needs to take care of itself and protect itself. ....there's that sensation in my chest again. When i lost an entire reply the other night, part of what was in there was seeing that the body, because it's not as subtle as the mind, ....there's a stronger identification, harder to see that "I" doesn't exist. I strongly identify with the body.
And frustrating for what exactly?
Thoughts about frustration, thoughts about a separate me, and the thoughts and stories about sensations in the body...that is happening. When paying attention to thoughts and not to AE I feel like it's all happening to a separate me. There's strong identification with the thoughts of a separate me and all the stories' being told. it's all believed, but by what? a thought can not believe something. What believes all the stories??? I will investigate this further.
I assume that this I in the above sentence feels quite real, right?
You would be correct.
When thoughts or believes like the above appear, LOOK for the ‘I’ that should be doing less and less? So where is this I that should do this less and less? – find it
Thank you for the redirection to LOOK. Fear coming up when looking here...fear of seeing more deeply...of disappearing, of annihilation. who or what is afraid i will disappear? ...back to your question. Really strong identification with the body right now, it's like since "I" can be seen through the thought, there's another thought that says: proof is right here that 'you' exist---the body. i'm so conditioned to believe i'm the body, it's harder to 'deny' the body exists...deny is not the word i think i should be using...it's harder to break the identification/belief I am the body. A thought says: this is me. but then something believes the thought. what believes the thoughts? "that is me" is just another thought, but it's believed right now because of the strong sensation in the body. The stronger the sensation, the stronger the hook/belief. I am looking and searching right now. Who or what is looking and searching right now? ...frustration is a word. I can really see the conditioning here. have to unlearn, will take practice.
What is it that is failing?
It feels like i have to look back at memory to begin to answer this question. When remembering happens, it feels like i can make a decision to choose where to put my attention--on thoughts or on AE. Seemingly, when attention is on thoughts a decision maker (I) appears. I'm acting like i have the power to make choices, and it does seem that's true more often than not. It feels like what is failing is IN this body, but upon closer examination, what is in the body are physical sensations. When looking is happening it is seen that nothing is failing, but immediately after seeing that, I became the looker! I feel frustrated....recall i must look at AE and ask: what feels frustrated? Flickering back and forth happens. But it's like the groove that is 'me' is so deep that's the default.
What is it exactly that wasn’t present?
Looking back on one instance, (not sure how i could answer this question w/out memory) PURE AE/looking wasn't present, thinking was happening, thinking about something totally different than what i was doing.... a lot more attention was given to the thinking that was happening than to AE, but whenever that is noticed, it's always after the fact...what notices it? Feels like 'me.' What does me feel like? Like thoughts and sensations in the body. I see the thought: I'll never get anything done if i question everything that comes up, but it appears it's the only way for this apparent separate self. Problem is difficult and doesn't happen as much as a hundreds of times a day. If i had to guess, it's happened about 40 times since i read your post about 6:30 this morning.
What is it exactly that missed the whole thing?
I don't know. It's like how do i not hear someone who's been talking to me for the last 20 seconds when i was right there in front of that person?
Do you see that this wanting is on behalf of YOU?
Yes, on behalf of the separate self, that's seen.
That the separate self thinks and wants to be better?
Yes, that's seen
So you have to find it right now, and not just rely on a memory.
Got it.

Thank you for the pointings.

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:31 am

Hi Nameless,

In this post I will question every single beliefs and assumptions that are there. This means that there will be lots of questions. Please go through them one-by-one, and LOOK for the answer to each of them. Don’t hurry.
Fear coming up when looking here...fear of seeing more deeply...of disappearing, of annihilation. who or what is afraid i will disappear? ...back to your question.
Do you really believe that something will disappear or die by this investigation? - really ponder on this question.

This fear based on a false belief can prevent you from looking. So investigate the basic assumption of this fear, that there is something that could die or disappear. But is this really true?

Find the ‘thing’ that SUPPOSEDLY could be annihilated or could disappear. Where is this ‘thing’?
.and this feels like intellectual reasoning and seeing: this sensation in my chest is not me. Then i'm reminded of the AE that noticing and the thing noticed are the same thing, but i can not see this right here, right now, it's coming from memory.
Put the attention to the sensation in the chest that is labelled as ‘me’, and inquire:

Is there a dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of it?
Are there 2 things present, a sensation + knowing of it?
Nothing can be lost or not lost in a thought. it was noticed that right after that was seen that I felt separate from that thought.
What is it exactly that felt separate from the thought? – find it
the "I" thought does not always arise after EACH thought, perhaps that's why "I" feels lost AFTER the fact?
The presence or the absence of the ‘I’ thought has NOTHING to do with this.
seeing that the body, because it's not as subtle as the mind, ....there's a stronger identification, harder to see that "I" doesn't exist. I strongly identify with the body.
All right. There is a body. But the body is just a body.

What is it EXACTLY that is identifying with the body?
“I strongly identify with the body” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in this sentence? – look, don’t think
Thoughts about frustration, thoughts about a separate me, and the thoughts and stories about sensations in the body...that is happening. When paying attention to thoughts and not to AE I feel like it's all happening to a separate me.
“I feel like it’s all happening to a separate me” – body how does this ACTUALLY felt?
First, the separate self has to be found, in order to say that things are happening to a separate self.
So where is this separate self to which thing happening to?

Sentences starting with “feels like” or “seems like” are just analogies. Just thought speculations. Can you see this?



really strong identification with the body right now, it's like since "I" can be seen through the thought, there's another thought that says: proof is right here that 'you' exist---the body.
Just because there is a body, what makes the body YOU?
i'm so conditioned to believe i'm the body, it's harder to 'deny' the body exists...deny is not the word i think i should be using...it's harder to break the identification/belief I am the body.
But WHAT is it EXACTLY that is identifying with the body? – find it!
A thought says: this is me. but then something believes the thought. what believes the thoughts? "that is me" is just another thought, but it's believed right now because of the strong sensation in the body.
There is a sensation in the body. But a sensation is just a sensation.

What does the sensation (of the body) has to do with believing the thought “that is me”?

The body is a body, a sensation is a sensation. A thought ‘that is me’ is just a thought. But where is THE ME?
seemingly, when attention is on thoughts a decision maker (I) appears. I'm acting like i have the power to make choices, and it does seem that's true more often than not.
We will investigate decision making later.
It feels like what is failing is IN this body, but upon closer examination, what is in the body are physical sensations. When looking is happening it is seen that nothing is failing, but immediately after seeing that, I became the looker!
Then find the looker. Where is the looker exactly? – localize it
whenever that is noticed, it's always after the fact...what notices it?
Is there a dividing line between whatever is noticed and the noticing?
Are there two things there, a ‘thing noticed’ + noticing itself?
Feels like 'me.' What does me feel like? Like thoughts and sensations in the body.
So just because thoughts suggest that the ‘I’ feels like thoughts and sensations, does this magically transforms thoughts and sensations into a ME?

How thoughts and sensations are transformed into a ME?
I see the thought: I'll never get anything done if i question everything that comes up, but it appears it's the only way for this apparent separate self.
Exactly! You have to question every single statements that thoughts make about the self or me.

Thoughts are liars :) – have you noticed?
it feels like i can make a decision to choose where to put my attention--on thoughts or on AE.
Again, a sentence starting with ‘it feels like’ is sure sign that what follows is just an analogy, a speculation. Can you see this?

Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?


Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:04 am

Hi Vivien,
So investigate the basic assumption of this fear, that there is something that could die or disappear. But is this really true?

Find the ‘thing’ that SUPPOSEDLY could be annihilated or could disappear. Where is this ‘thing’?
I can experience sensations and thoughts, but i can not find a separate me except within a thought or as a thought, and that is not the thing i feel will be annihilated.
Is there a dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of it?
It was hard not to draw on memory as this was seen some days ago---for the first time. It did happen again, now, but it "flickers,' sensation and the knowing of it was seen as the same thing, but only for a few seconds, then a thought would 'jump in' and say: "There it is! (LOL) And, then the next thought was: "I did it!" hahaha. then i would begin thinking of something that's not related to what you're asking and that was noticed and then it seemed like I made a choice to try and see no division again; this went on for some minutes. I just noticed that i typed, 'i began thinking.' i know that's not true; it seems like something here doesn't want to give up its power, or the illusion of power.
Are there 2 things present, a sensation + knowing of it?
Not when looking at AE. Only when paying attention to thoughts, does it seem like 2 separate things, and not always then either, sometimes there are no thoughts or feelings of separation or no separation of those two things.
What is it exactly that felt separate from the thought? – find it
The sense of I, which feels like the body right now, but then sensations are actually experienced in the body, and it's seen that that is not me, then the sense of 'me,' says, "I'm here in the head," and that feels like 'me.' This is crazy...when it's seen that i'm not in the body, then it feels like i'm in the head, then when it's seen i'm not in the head, i feel like i'm the body again....over and over, back and forth, back and forth.
What is it EXACTLY that is identifying with the body?
A thought. Thoughts keep saying things like this. Now, a couple of seconds later, another thought says: thoughts are telling ME these things. Geeze, so i'm right back to: what, who, or where is this 'me?' Yes, hundreds of times a day i must ask, maybe thousands!!
“I strongly identify with the body” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in this sentence? – look, don’t think
I'm laughing now because 'i' keep using the word, "i" when "I've" seen clearly there is no separate I, but it sure does feel like there is one. Back to your question: Probably almost 10 minutes go by.......Sensations in the body.
“I feel like it’s all happening to a separate me” – body how does this ACTUALLY felt?
Sometimes it feels like suffering--mental and physical anguish/pain, and other times it feels mentally and physically pleasant. If I got into the specifics of it, i would label the specific sensations in the body and the thoughts 'in the head' and no further commentary would follow such as, pleasant, unpleasant, good, bad, etc. When a story is believed it usually brings physical sensations labeled as fear or calm, love, etc.
So where is this separate self to which thing happening to?
I'm right back where i was a few questions ago. Thoughts say, "right here in the head, or the body, but then it's noticed that's a thought or a sensation, but then who or what is noticing and then saying, "That's just a thought." So some thoughts point directly to AE, and can be trusted yes? And, others---most others are lies? Noticing of thoughts is happening when they point to AE and noticing of thoughts is also happening when fear kicks in.
Sentences starting with “feels like” or “seems like” are just analogies. Just thought speculations. Can you see this?
Yes, i can see this; this is my way of letting you know where i think i'm stuck. :)
Just because there is a body, what makes the body YOU?
Nothing really; thoughts are there to protect some sense of a separate self...what it looks like, i'm actually looking or if this is another thought. Once in a while, anymore, it's not always clear if seeing of AE is happening or seeing thoughts is happening.
But WHAT is it EXACTLY that is identifying with the body? – find it!
The sense of 'I' which is seen as thoughts and sensations in the body, .....how can a thought identify with the body? Thoughts tell stories...some stories are fiction and some thoughts are true? yes? no? Is the thought a belief only, or is there something here that believes the thought or doesn't believe thought? ......Noticing of 'truth'/reality can happen and noticing of BS can also happen. I still have not answered your great question....(i was gone all day, i really did not want to leave, i wanted to sit with these questions, but pondered the first two questions throughout the day....had a moment when everything seen and heard was experienced differently....kind of like anew, simple, wondrous and i just began to laugh. Anyway, I want to get to all the questions...i'm stuck on this one. Wait...Nothing is identifying with the body, there is only a thought that says because i have a body, i am a separate self, or "I" exist. I wonder if, or how the brain has to do with all of this......next question
What does the sensation (of the body) has to do with believing the thought “that is me”?
Nothing, it is another thought that 'says' that they are tied together, and that thought is not challenged...but who or what challenges the thought? .....Now this is a thought from memory: Challenging just happens. Looks like a game...the I thought just keeps popping up kind of like the game where you bop some kind animal's head down a hole, and it just pops up in a different hole as soon as you hit it on the head.
The body is a body, a sensation is a sensation. A thought ‘that is me’ is just a thought. But where is THE ME?
The "I" thought makes things personal. There is some kind of awareness or consciousness here, but there's a thought that says, "That's me, that awareness, that thing that experiences things is me." It pops up after the experience. but what keeps believing it? it's the conditioning...the default, or it's just going unchallenged?
Then find the looker. Where is the looker exactly? – localize it
Funny...now there is a thought that says: "SOMETHING here is looking." Clever...trying not to personalize it now...but thoughts can't personalize anything. Does the "I" thought appear between two thoughts?? Does the I thought disappear after one thought, and reappear after another thought? .....(time passes) Looking is happening, sometimes the "I" thought appears and 'owns' it, and other times it does not.
Is there a dividing line between whatever is noticed and the noticing?
At first it seems this way because AE is not happening and the "I" thought pops up and makes two things out of one, but when paying attention to AE 'reality' is seen, or that which is experience without an experiencer. Well, it looks like AE is happening, it's just missed because the "I" thought comes up sooooo quickly, almost immediately after AE....maybe during AE.....maybe same time as AE
Are there two things there, a ‘thing noticed’ + noticing itself?
It looks like they arise at the same time, THEY indicates two, I am not looking.
So just because thoughts suggest that the ‘I’ feels like thoughts and sensations, does this magically transforms thoughts and sensations into a ME?
No,
How thoughts and sensations are transformed into a ME?
Conditioning. Belief in the thoughts, assuming what others said was true, not challenging the validity of thoughts, not looking closely at AE. I believe that answer comes from memory, not AE.
Thoughts are liars :) – have you noticed?
Yes, I have noticed this many, many times. :)
Again, a sentence starting with ‘it feels like’ is sure sign that what follows is just an analogy, a speculation. Can you see this?
Yes, i can see this clearly; my way of letting you know i'm stuck.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Sometimes it is seen that attention moves by itself, then other times it seems like there is intention to put attention on a specific thing, but that was just seen as well. :)
Is there a focus-er?
This flickers back and forth quickly between the sense of a focus-er and noticing focusing happening
Is there something controlling it?
This flickers back and forth also, although not nearly as quickly, between the sense of a separate me choosing to focus on this and the clear seeing that i am not, nor can i find Something else or Someone else that is choosing to focus on this....or whatever else is being focused on. Focusing is happening and it I'm not the one focusing nor am i the one choosing whatever happens to be being looked at.
What moves attention?
More flickering...attention just moves, that is seen...(and immediately after the seeing..."I" appears and says: "I saw that...see, I exist, I noticed that." ) And, then, it feels like i am moving MY attention. ....Do you feel like you're just talking to a brick wall here?
Is thought in control of attention?
After looking/seeking for an answer/AE I have an image of a big knot made of the thickest rope in my head! Most of your questions are like this, some more than others. Back to your question....No. Attention moves about ...this flickers back and forth, too, from attention moving about by itself to me putting forth effort to put attention on this, to noticing that the sense of putting forth effort is happening back to noticing, effecting, noticing.....

This took 4 1/2 hours...with a few 5 minute breaks in there. Is there hope for 'me,' Vivien?

Thank you for all of your time and energy you put forth here to .....? help 'me' see that i'm not here. even though i've seen it more times than i can count on one hand....i want to say: Something here just doesn't want to believe that "I" don't exist. Memory tells me, it's just a thought. If i wasn't so tired, I'd sit until i had the AE of it and not rely on memory, but i'm tired, so seeking will resume in the a.m. unless a miracle happens in my sleep. Talk to you tomorrow, Vivien.

Nameless1

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Vivien
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:27 am

Hi Nameless,
This took 4 1/2 hours...with a few 5 minute breaks in there. Is there hope for 'me,' Vivien?
In this last post you did some nice looking. Just continue like this. The more you look and easer and clearer it gets.
I can experience sensations and thoughts, but i can not find a separate me except within a thought or as a thought, and that is not the thing i feel will be annihilated.
Then what is it that could be annihilated? – find it
i know that's not true; it seems like something here doesn't want to give up its power, or the illusion of power.
And what is it that doesn’t want to give up the illusion of power? – find this something
The sense of I, which feels like the body right now, but then sensations are actually experienced in the body, and it's seen that that is not me, then the sense of 'me,' says, "I'm here in the head," and that feels like 'me.' This is crazy...when it's seen that i'm not in the body, then it feels like i'm in the head, then when it's seen i'm not in the head, i feel like i'm the body again....over and over, back and forth, back and forth.
Ponder on this: It FEELS LIKE that the ‘me’, ‘I am’ is constantly here. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.
But if this were really the case, wouldn’t be the easiest tasks of all to find myself? Wouldn’t it be totally obvious where I am located exactly? If the ‘I am’ is my most intimate experience as it SEEMS LIKE, then wouldn’t I know for sure, without any hesitation, what I am exactly and where I am exactly? And wouldn’t need to search for myself, and this SEEMING ‘me’ wouldn’t be an elusive, shapeshifter, like a ghost that cannot be found. Can you see this?

You have literally SEARCH THROUGH the whole body from head to toe many-many times. Pay particular attention to the chest and the whole head. Search for the self in the eyes, behind the eyes, at the back of the head, the middle of the head, the top of the head, in the throat. Look everywhere. Search with closed eyes and open eyes too.

If a sensation comes up SEEMINGLY as the residency of the self, then spend lots of time with that sensation, and investigate:

Is the sensation itself the self? Sensation = self / I?
Or is the self inside the sensation? Where exactly?
What makes this sensation ‘me’?
V: What is it EXACTLY that is identifying with the body?
N: A thought. Thoughts keep saying things like this.
If a thought could identify with the body, then it would mean that thoughts can do things, like identifying. But can they really? – look
V: “I strongly identify with the body” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in this sentence? – look, don’t think
N: I'm laughing now because 'i' keep using the word, "i" when "I've" seen clearly there is no separate I, but it sure does feel like there is one. Back to your question: Probably almost 10 minutes go by.......Sensations in the body.
So, now you are saying that the sensations in the body is one that identifies with the body?
Thoughts say, "right here in the head, or the body, but then it's noticed that's a thought or a sensation, but then who or what is noticing and then saying, "That's just a thought." So some thoughts point directly to AE, and can be trusted yes? And, others---most others are lies?
There are some thoughts that are POINTING DIRECTLY to experience, like the words sensation, sound, image/color, taste, smell, thought, mental image. But most thoughts are only pointing TO OTHER THOUGHTS ABOUT AE. Is this totally clear?
V: Sentences starting with “feels like” or “seems like” are just analogies. Just thought speculations. Can you see this?
N: Yes, i can see this; this is my way of letting you know where i think i'm stuck. :)
All right. When next time you say ‘feels like’ or ‘seems like’ I will ask more questions :)
Nothing is identifying with the body, there is only a thought that says because i have a body, i am a separate self, or "I" exist.
Exactly. There is nothing identifying with the body. Only thoughts ‘talk’ about identification. Can you see this?
I wonder if, or how the brain has to do with all of this.
What is the AE of brain?
There is some kind of awareness or consciousness here, but there's a thought that says, "That's me, that awareness, that thing that experiences things is me.
Where is this consciousness or awareness exactly? – find it

And after you have found it (if you could found it), please tell me how awareness / consciousness has become a ME?
V: Are there two things there, a ‘thing noticed’ + noticing itself?
N: It looks like they arise at the same time, THEY indicates two, I am not looking.
No, you’re not looking. So please look.

Are there two things there, a ‘thing noticed’ + noticing itself?
V: How thoughts and sensations are transformed into a ME?
N: Conditioning. Belief in the thoughts, assuming what others said was true, not challenging the validity of thoughts, not looking closely at AE. I believe that answer comes from memory, not AE.
This is not looking.

Thoughts and sensations are NEVER transformed into a ME.
Only thoughts says that sensations and thoughts are me, but actually this transformation has never happened. Can you see this?

I would like to ask you to repeat the focus of attention exercise. Here it is again.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?


Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?
Something here just doesn't want to believe that "I" don't exist.
Of course not. Seeing no self is NOT a belief of “I don’t exist”.
Seeing no self doesn’t require any belief, since it’s SEEN clearly. Do you get the difference?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Nameless1
Posts: 113
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:05 am

Hi Vivien,
Then what is it that could be annihilated? – find it
Nothing, it was a thought, and I am not a thought...actually, I am a thought, or I is a thought, but the next thought is: what notices that? Another thought 'says,' "I notice that." But thoughts can not notice anything, nor can they think, but something notices that...here we go again---what notices that? This thought crosses my mind: Vivien said to look behind the eyes, in the head, chest, etc...something says, Look...Vivien says to LOOK, not think, LOOK! Something...a darn thought, wants to personalize everything..."wants to?" That's silly, thoughts can't want anything. A thought is an image that is noticed.....that thought directly points to AE like you said. But immediately after that thought is noticed, another thought appears and 'says,' "Yeah, but WHAT noticed it?" How to get off this merry go round? ....Just keep LOOKING at AE.
And what is it that doesn’t want to give up the illusion of power? – find this something
As far as i can see...i think i'm looking here, but 'not wanting to give up the illusion of power' is just another thought. It's a thought, just one of millions of thoughts floating around and around again...like a ticker tape, nothing real new or original for the most part.
And wouldn’t need to search for myself, and this SEEMING ‘me’ wouldn’t be an elusive, shapeshifter, like a ghost that cannot be found. Can you see this?
I think so...if i understand this correctly

I
s the sensation itself the self? Sensation = self / I?
No, that is clear....when LOOKING at AE.
Or is the self inside the sensation? Where exactly?
The self is not inside any sensation.
What makes this sensation ‘me’?
Nothing in reality; a belief or thought wants to make it seem that way. Again, a thought doesn't want anything, can't do anything, think, feel, see, taste, or smell anything
If a thought could identify with the body, then it would mean that thoughts can do things, like identifying. But can they really? – look
No, as stated above, and seen now
So, now you are saying that the sensations in the body is one that identifies with the body?
No, sensations can't do anything---just like thoughts.
There are some thoughts that are POINTING DIRECTLY to experience, like the words sensation, sound, image/color, taste, smell, thought, mental image. But most thoughts are only pointing TO OTHER THOUGHTS ABOUT AE. Is this totally clear?
Yes, right now this is very clear, but as you know and i know, forgetting will happen.
There is nothing identifying with the body. Only thoughts ‘talk’ about identification. Can you see this?
Yes, this is seen clearly; however, 'i'm' on this seeming merry go round of: clearly seen (AE), then seconds go by and thoughts 'argue' what was just seen..it FEELS like a separate self fighting to prove you and i that it is real....thoughts in the head...arguments in the head....i don't know where thoughts are, or where they come from or where they go.
What is the AE of brain?
There is absolutley no AE of brain.
Where is this consciousness or awareness exactly? – find it
Dictionary definition of awareness: the ability to perceive, too feel, or to be conscious of events, objects, thoughts, etc... I can not answer your question. Thought is: SOMETHING HERE is aware. Not sure why i can't say: "Awareness is here." well, yes, awareness is here. You said something in an earlier post about awareness being something totally different, or not what i thought it was, so i have no clue what i'm talking about.
And after you have found it (if you could found it), please tell me how awareness / consciousness has become a ME?
there are thoughts and awareness is happening
Are there two things there, a ‘thing noticed’ + noticing itself?
I have come back to this question a number of times, and i just can't get there tonight...seeing that they are the same thing is not happening, and i'm super tired and have to get up early...effort was put forth here, and i've tried to see this again even when you've not asked; that was super cool to see that...well, i didn't see it, so what is happening is a thought of AE, a memory of AE?
Only thoughts says that sensations and thoughts are me, but actually this transformation has never happened. Can you see this
s? Yes, this is clearly seen; next thought: "but something here sees that.' There almost always has to be a something or someone that is doing the seeing...HOW to STOP this? How to stop personalizing and self-ing??
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
it is seen clearly that attention moves by itself
Is there a focus-er?
No; however, there's the flickering again back and forth..no, here i am, no, here i am

(quote]Is there something controlling it?[/quote] No, it just goes where it goes
What moves attention?
Attention just moves

I[quoteI]s thought in control of attention?[/quote] NO, thought is not in control of attention.
Seeing no self doesn’t require any belief, since it’s SEEN clearly. Do you get the difference?
Yes.

Thank you for helping me, Vivien

Nameless1

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:09 am

Hi Nameless,

Nothing, it was a thought, and I am not a thought...actually, I am a thought, or I is a thought, but the next thought is: what notices that? Another thought 'says,' "I notice that." But thoughts can not notice anything, nor can they think, but something notices that...here we go again---what notices that? This thought crosses my mind: Vivien said to look behind the eyes, in the head, chest, etc...something says, Look...Vivien says to LOOK, not think, LOOK! Something...a darn thought, wants to personalize everything..."wants to?" That's silly, thoughts can't want anything. A thought is an image that is noticed.....that thought directly points to AE like you said. But immediately after that thought is noticed, another thought appears and 'says,' "Yeah, but WHAT noticed it?" How to get off this merry go round? ....Just keep LOOKING at AE.
Nice looking! Just keep looking!
Dictionary definition of awareness: the ability to perceive, too feel, or to be conscious of events, objects, thoughts, etc... I can not answer your question. Thought is: SOMETHING HERE is aware. Not sure why i can't say: "Awareness is here." well, yes, awareness is here. You said something in an earlier post about awareness being something totally different, or not what i thought it was, so i have no clue what i'm talking about.
If there is REALLY an awareness or consciousness, then where is it exactly?
Where is the perceiver?
there are thoughts and awareness is happening
Where does a thought end and the awareness or knowing of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between a thought and the knowing/awareness of it?
V: Are there two things there, a ‘thing noticed’ + noticing itself?
N: I have come back to this question a number of times, and i just can't get there tonight..
Can there be a thought without the knowing/awareness of it?
Can there be the awareness/knowing of a thought without a thought?

Are there a thought + something that is aware of the thought?
If yes, where is the awareness exactly?
Yes, this is clearly seen; next thought: "but something here sees that.' There almost always has to be a something or someone that is doing the seeing...HOW to STOP this? How to stop personalizing and self-ing??
Why should personalizing or selfing to stop?
What has a problem with selfing?


Expecting that by seeing through the self the selfing thoughts would stop is a HUGE and unrealistic expectation. It won’t stop.

The question rather is: whose problems is whether selfing stops or not?
Does an illusion have to go away in order to know/see that it’s just an illusion?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:16 am

Hi Vivien,
Nice looking! Just keep looking!
Thnak you for the encouragement.
If there is REALLY an awareness or consciousness, then where is it exactly?
Where is the perceiver?
Perceiving is happening. There is no perceiver. ....then, of course, "I" appeared and began telling stories and lies again, but those lies sure felt real. But, this still doesn't answer your question. And, it wasn't just "I" that appeared, it was other thoughts that also appeared. Is the "I" thought more powerful than other thoughts...what's so special about the "I" thought? I can report images, sensations that occurred when looking in the head for awareness or consciousness: like a merging began, my head with everything else that exists...awareness is everything, it's thoughts, sensations, perceptions, objects, nouns, verbs; It's the only thing that exists, just in different forms. But i've heard things like this before, and the SEEING of this was not clearly seen like i've clearly seen other things, so i'm just babbling right now.
Where does a thought end and the awareness or knowing of it starts?
I answered the question below this one, before writing here, i can't really understand this question. but upon further looking of the question below this one, I'm going to use the word,"seem" it does seem like level or quality of perception is not consistently the same, but something tells me my 'seeming/sense of this is incorrect.
Where is the dividing line between a thought and the knowing/awareness of it?
There is not one; they arise simultaneously, this is seen when 'slowing down' and really looking happens.
Can there be a thought without the knowing/awareness of it?
Thought appeared: Sometimes awareness is aware, and sometimes it is not. Ok, how could that ever be true??? Another misperception.Thoughts lie, yes, but it "feels" like these thoughts appear to protect a false self, but thoughts can NOT have desires and aversions, a thought doesn't want to protect 'me.' A thought can not have another thought, a thought can not have a thought. Where do these damn thoughts come from? Am i focusing on thoughts too much? Wait, who or what is focusing...i've seen a number of times that there is NO me...forgetting happens. After sitting and looking/trying to look: No, no awareness of a thought, no thought. No awareness of a thought, NO AE, no AE, no proof. ...so it seemed like some flickering going on in the beginning of what appeared to be seeing, then something...thoughts began to be filled with anxiety at first and then wonderment at what was being seen, which is the exact opposite of what i've believed for so many years. so it FEELS like something was coming into focus, but I/fear/?? got in the way. More babbling here?
Can there be the awareness/knowing of a thought without a thought?
No
Are there a thought + something that is aware of the thought?
This flickers, but it is seen that they arise simultaneously. How does that happen?? And, why did it take numerous times of seeing that before "I" asked, or that thought appeared...a real curiousness about HOW that actually happens?
If yes, where is the awareness exactly?
I did not use the word, no, above, but the answer is no. They are the same 'thing'/'material'/one thing, not 1 thin plus another 1 thing. Just one thing...the image that came after that was a wave...a wave arises out of the ocean...both wave and ocean are water...one thing. no difference between the wave and ocean, both are water, same substance.
Why should personalizing or selfing to stop?
...rolling your question around in my head (your thoughts) and seeing more of my own thoughts in my head, thought said, "Thoughts talking to each other." Won't waste your time typing all the thoughts arising here. Back to your question: Answer: Because i don't like it.... but thoughts can't like things, a mental image can't like or dislike anything. Answer: Because i want it to....but thoughts can't desire or feel aversions. Answer: Wanting selfing to stop is a thought, the i that wants it to stop is also a thought....I is a thought....a thought CAN'T want anything. I feel like i exist. Answer: i have no clue what the answer is. Your question is just another thought, too, but it/they appear to be MUCH more intelligent thoughts than the ones rolling around 'in my head.'
What has a problem with selfing?
Nothing. thoughts don't have problems.
The question rather is: whose problems is whether selfing stops or not?
when i don't identify with a personal self, no problem...when you asked "WHAT" has a problem, it's seen and felt clearly...No thing has a problem...when you ask, "WHO" has a problem...I can not get to Nothing, no thing...the answer magically becomes, Me.
Does an illusion have to go away in order to know/see that it’s just an illusion?
No, it does not. But even seeing through some of it, ....it does most certainly take some of the stickiness/suffering away---a good amount because suffering has decreased significantly over the few years..."I" always wants more...hardly ever satisfied for long. I want the 'shift.' i know when the shift happens selfing will continue...the story continues, i just don't want to believe it near as much and perhaps be able to get unhooked more quickly.

Thanks for listening, Vivien.

Nameless

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:40 am

Hi Vivien,

Went to bed after posting...laying in bed, noticing wanting and not wanting happening...but i do not own any of those thoughts ...i don't own them, they are not mine. :) i'm sure this is another flicker, but that was nice to see. Had to write it down, afraid I might forget, even though there really is no I. i wants things and i doesn't want some other things, no problem. :)

Nameless

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:04 am

Hi Nameless,
awareness is everything, it's thoughts, sensations, perceptions, objects, nouns, verbs; It's the only thing that exists, just in different forms.
This is a nice story, but not the AE.
In order to say that awareness is everything, first, an independently existing standalone awareness have to be found.

So where is this awareness that could be or become a thought, sensation, perception, objects, nouns?
V: Where does a thought end and the awareness or knowing of it starts?
N: I answered the question below this one, before writing here, i can't really understand this question. but upon further looking of the question below this one, I'm going to use the word,"seem" it does seem like level or quality of perception is not consistently the same, but something tells me my 'seeming/sense of this is incorrect.
But you didn’t answer my question.

If there is a separate awareness and a separate object, then there has to be an ending of the thought and the beginning of the knowing of it.

Where does a thought end and the awareness or knowing of it starts?
.thoughts began to be filled with anxiety at first and then wonderment at what was being seen, which is the exact opposite of what i've believed for so many years. so it FEELS like something was coming into focus, but I/fear/?? got in the way. More babbling here?
What is this fear about?
What does this fear trying to protect you from?
seeing more of my own thoughts in my head
Are thoughts IN the head?
What is the AE of thoughts coming from the head?
Doe thoughts appear in a certain location?
I feel like i exist.
Please describe me as precisely as you can how it exactly felt that “I exist”. Describe me the “I exist’ feeling.
when i don't identify with a personal self,
What is it that identifies with a personal self?
when you asked "WHAT" has a problem, it's seen and felt clearly...No thing has a problem...when you ask, "WHO" has a problem...I can not get to Nothing, no thing...the answer magically becomes, Me.
And can you see why? Because the question ‘who’ already implies that there is a person there, while ‘what’ doesn’t assumes an entity. Can you see this?
I want the 'shift.' i know when the shift happens selfing will continue...the story continues, i just don't want to believe it near as much and perhaps be able to get unhooked more quickly.
Yes, it won’t stop. And it might happen more often than you would expect. Be prepared :)
but i do not own any of those thoughts ...i don't own them, they are not mine.
Yes, it’s good to see this. But don’t stop here. Go a step further.

What and where is the ‘I’ that doesn’t own the thoughts of wanting and not wanting?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:55 am

Hi Vivien,
So where is this awareness that could be or become a thought, sensation, perception, objects, nouns?
Last night i based my answer on an image in the mind and a felt sensation----image not real, not AE. I don't know where this 'awareness' could be. Based on your answers, it appears there is no awareness. My experience is that something is perceiving and much less often the experience is: Perceiving is happening....awareness is 'awarding.' I want to say that some kind of consciousness is here...where, i don't know except to say that when there's awareness of awareness it's always right here. I know i'm not answering your question, and i'm not b/c i can't get AE of your question...seeing isn't happening. .... seeing is just happening...hearing is just happening, tasting is just happening....and based on memory, these things and awareness arise together...my mind is trying to figure this out...awareness IS seeing, ....waste of time trying to 'see' with the mind...wait, i forgot, there is no mind. sigh i can not answer your question
Where does a thought end and the awareness or knowing of it starts?
knowing of a thought happens immediately after the thought ends.. there appears to be a difference between awareness and knowing.
What is this fear about?
If i recall correctly, the fear began arising because there was a very real sense coming into focus that I/this personality was not, and never was here...afraid of the shock of the Truth.
What does this fear trying to protect you from?
the Truth that I never existed....the fear of feeling or looking stupid because i believed something so off the wall for decades, that i am so stupid i couldn't see what was right in front of me at all times. ...that's what just came up now; always in the past the fear has always been about being annihilated. or once the fear was about becoming some holy roller.
Are thoughts IN the head?
i don't know where thoughts are. thoughts can't be seen with the naked eye, and i can't see inside my own head, never seen my own face/head (except as a reflection) so can't prove i even have a head right now. i don't know where thoughts come from, where they ARE, or where they go. Nor do i know why they appear
What is the AE of thoughts coming from the head?
There is no AE of thoughts coming into the head.
Doe thoughts appear in a certain location?
Thoughts appear, but i can not tell you where thoughts are located, again, nor where they come from or where they go.
Please describe me as precisely as you can how it exactly felt that “I exist”. Describe me the “I exist’ feeling.
Sensations are felt in the body, seeing and believing thoughts. I don't know how it happens, but there appears to be some kind of separation going on here...that something separate is feeling sensations in the body and seeing and believing thoughts. ....there is 'talking' in my head. why is THAT the place where thoughts, images, and talking appear to occur...why there and not in my foot or my chest? I is like a ghost, elusive, i can not see it, i can not find it, this makes no sense..."I" am looking for my own self...such a strong sense of self, yet i can't tell you what or where it is! What is looking is what i think is me...and i seem to be looking at what is looking, yet i can't see what is looking! Looking is happening and then "I" appears and then knowing happens?
What is it that identifies with a personal self?
Nothing. that is just another thought.
Because the question ‘who’ already implies that there is a person there, while ‘what’ doesn’t assumes an entity. Can you see this?
Yes, this is clear.
What and where is the ‘I’ that doesn’t own the thoughts of wanting and not wanting?
The 'what' that "I" is, is a thought. The thought is real. The "I" is the image in the thought...not real....I is IN the thought....the IMAGE in the thought. images aren't real. I wish I wasn't so tired so i could sit with this longer.

I look forward to your responses and am grateful each day when i see 'admin' in my email inbox. :) I see the importance of looking and writing on a daily basis. I couldn't do the in-depth inquiry without the questions you pose daily. You're excellent at assisting here.

Nameless1

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:58 am

Hi Nameless,
My experience is that something is perceiving and much less often the experience is: Perceiving is happening....awareness is 'awarding.'
You say that “my experience is that something is perceiving” – if there is REALLY an experience that there is something is perceiving and not just a fantasy than you can tell me how it is experienced exactly.

Is this experiencer a sound, image/colour, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
I want to say that some kind of consciousness is here.
Really? If there is really some kind of consciousness here, then you obviously have no problem and difficulty of showing me this consciousness. Then you can easily describe its location, its size, shape and color, you have no problem to describe how it feels, and how it looks like. So please do it. It’s an easy task of there is really one.
when there's awareness of awareness it's always right here.
This is just a thought story, the content of a thought taken as reality.

What is the AE of awareness being here?
And here where exactly?


So if you make the statement that ‘there’s awareness of awareness it’s always right here” – then you must know how this awareness exactly looks like, feels like, in order to make such statement. So describe it to me what this awareness is like. How big it is? What is its shape? How do you recognize it?
and based on memory, these things and awareness arise together...my mind is trying to figure this out...awareness IS seeing, ....waste of time trying to 'see' with the mind...wait, i forgot, there is no mind. sigh i can not answer your question
We talked about that you should NEVER rely on memory of a previous looking. You always have to look AFRESH. This is essential. If you don’t look every time, then you are just going in round and round in wonderland.
waste of time trying to 'see' with the mind...wait, i forgot, there is no mind.
When you realized that you had forgotten that there is no mind, then was it just adopted as a belief in this moment, or did you ACTUALLY LOOKED FOR the mind, to make is sure that ‘no mind’ isn’t just a new belief?
V: Where does a thought end and the awareness or knowing of it starts?
N: knowing of a thought happens immediately after the thought ends..
Really? You are not looking.

“knowing of a thought happens immediately after the thought ends” – and my question was where does the thought end? Find the end of the thought!

If the thought ends and the awareness of it starts, then there MUST BE a dividing line between the two.
Where is this dividing line exactly?

there appears to be a difference between awareness and knowing.
In order to say that there is a difference between awareness and knowing, first you have to be able to find both of them separately, and just after identified them separately you are able to make comparisons between the two.

So where is the awareness? How does it look like? How does it recognized?
And where is the knowing? How does knowing look like? How does knowing is recognized?


And after you have found them both separately, then tell me:
And what is the difference between awareness of knowing?
the Truth that I never existed....the fear of feeling or looking stupid because i believed something so off the wall for decades, that i am so stupid i couldn't see what was right in front of me at all times. ...that's what just came up now; always in the past the fear has always been about being annihilated. or once the fear was about becoming some holy roller.
Who/what would look stupid if there is no you?
Who/what would be annihilated if there is no you/self at all?
Thoughts appear, but i can not tell you where thoughts are located, again, nor where they come from or where they go.
Because thought doesn’t come and go.
There is either a thought present or not. That’s all.
Is this clear?

I look forward to your responses and am grateful each day when i see 'admin' in my email inbox. :)
You are welcome :)

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:25 am

Hello Vivien,
Is this experiencer a sound, image/colour, taste, smell, sensation or thought?
:) the 'experiencer' is a thought. Direct experience/AE is, thought. "I" is a thought. "Sense of I" is thought and sensations.
Then you can easily describe its location, its size, shape and color, you have no problem to describe how it feels, and how it looks like. So please do it. It’s an easy task of there is really one.
Describe consciousness. I can not describe consciousness
What is the AE of awareness being here?
can't find one
And here where exactly?
can't find one
So describe it to me what this awareness is like. How big it is? What is its shape? How do you recognize it?
it is a thought, it is experienced as a thought/mental image/construct
When you realized that you had forgotten that there is no mind, then was it just adopted as a belief in this moment, or did you ACTUALLY LOOKED FOR the mind, to make is sure that ‘no mind’ isn’t just a new belief?
Looked for mind, but could not find one, 'saw' thoughts, no mind.
and my question was where does the thought end? Find the end of the thought!
and I've not answered this question every time you've asked bc i can't! Tonight: first, experience was still, quiet, spacious, at end of thoughts. then experience was thought,(quick and silent like) then 'memory' of those same thoughts...like a slowed down, verbal spoken version. Like a repeat
If the thought ends and the awareness of it starts, then there MUST BE a dividing line between the two.
Where is this dividing line exactly?
can not find one
So where is the awareness? How does it look like? How does it recognized?
Looking, again, seeing, again, it appears as a thought, can't tell you any location/where it is
And where is the knowing?
i can not locate any place where knowing is
How does knowing look like?
knowing is a mental concept/thought
How does knowing is recognized?
just another mental construct/thought.[/quote]
And what is the difference between awareness of knowing?
my sense..not AE, awareness is sensing/experience, knowing adds labels. So to answer your question, I don't know of any difference no AE here
Who/what would look stupid if there is no you? no one
Who/what would be annihilated if there is no you/self at all?
no one.
Because thought doesn’t come and go.
There is either a thought present or not. That’s all.
Is this clear?
Yes

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:54 am

Hi Nameless,
V: And what is the difference between awareness of knowing?
N: my sense..not AE, awareness is sensing/experience, knowing adds labels. So to answer your question, I don't know of any difference no AE here
Making a distinction between awareness as experiencing and knowing as adding labels is just the trick of thoughts.
It’s just a thought story, it’s just an interpretation.
V: What is the AE of awareness being here?
N: can't find one
V: So describe it to me what this awareness is like. How big it is? What is its shape? How do you recognize it?
N: it is a thought, it is experienced as a thought/mental image/construct
V: So where is the awareness? How does it look like? How does it recognized?
N: Looking, again, seeing, again, it appears as a thought, can't tell you any location/where it is
V: How does knowing look like?
N: just another mental construct/thought
Please read through the above quote very carefully.

Do you see that you replied to both awareness as knowing as nothing else then mental constructs?
Can you see that knowing is just the same word for awareness?

Can you see that it doesn’t matter what word you use, it’s still pointing to the same illusion, just using different words/labels?
V: Then you can easily describe its location [experiencer], its size, shape and color, you have no problem to describe how it feels, and how it looks like. So please do it. It’s an easy task of there is really one.
N: Describe consciousness. I can not describe consciousness
Consciousness is just a different word used for the same illusion.
It doesn’t matter what words you use.

Here are some common words used for the same illusion of the self:

awareness = consciousness = experiencer = knower = looker = noticer = watcher = feeler = seer = self = I = me = myself = Self = emptiness = my real nature = field = field of experiencing = space = knowing space… and many more

These are just the different words pointing to the same illusion.
To an imagined something that is the subject, that is the knowing or being aware or noticing or watching or seeing or feeling (etc) the objects (thoughts, sensations, images, etc).

So the subject is me, and the object is everything else that is not-me.

But in reality, there is NO subject-object split.
There is no subject + object. There is no me and not-me.
There is no 2. There is no separation.

Imagine a coin. Let’s say that one side of the coin, the tail is the knowing/aware-ing (subject), and the head is the known/awared, like a sensation, or a thought (object).

It seems like that there is a separate subject (tail) and a separate object (head). But is there really?
Are these 2 separate things? Are there really 2?
Or is there only one coin?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:57 pm

Do you see that you replied to both awareness as knowing as nothing else then mental constructs?
Yes
Can you see that knowing is just the same word for awareness?
yes
But in reality, there is NO subject-object split.
There is no subject + object. There is no me and not-me.
There is no 2. There is no separation.
it seems like i have seen/experienced this a number of times, noticing and object noticed arising simultaneously and are the same thing..no split or dividing line as you have asked about. sometimes this is seen, and other times it is not seen. if i understand you correctly, this is normal; this flickering in and out, seen/not seen. not seen is just what's happening, then seen is just what's happening. when seeing is happening or AE is happening, separate me is no where to be found, nor are other objects found. it's like sounds are just present or seeing images is just happening or sensations are just present. the sense of a separate me seems to come in after and claim ownership, and that is also seen, especially when strong emotions/sensations in the body are present. the stronger the sensations, the stronger the sense of i.

i feel frustrated. then looking more closely, sensations are noticed in the chest and it's noticed that i am not these sensations, there is the sense that i watch sensations, then continuing to look...looking is just happening. hard to not look at memory, sense of i wants to be done with seeking...thoughts and sensations can not want anything...what notices that? .....i can't even say a, 'what' right now...noticing and whatever is noticed is the same thing, like there is no what and no who either. things appear, things disappear all the same ting different forms. ok back to the illusion of me, the sense of me. i feel frustrated because it seems like we are going around in circles. also, when you use all caps, bold type and different color words, it feels like i'm being yelled at, scolded. whether 'you' do that out of a sense of frustration or not, i'm requesting that you just type without using all the caps, bold type bc i didn't like the feeling of being yelled at as a kid and i like it even less with wrinkles and sagging skin; i think your words will hold the same weight for me even without the flair. .....maybe getting triggered is helpful, i know it needs to come up to be seen through, but i think i get enough of it offline. i feel stuck, like a skip in a record, just keep getting kicked back and forth--seeing, not seeing.......

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Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:55 am

Hi Nameless,
also, when you use all caps, bold type and different color words, it feels like i'm being yelled at, scolded. whether 'you' do that out of a sense of frustration or not, i'm requesting that you just type without using all the caps, bold type bc i didn't like the feeling of being yelled at as a kid and i like it even less with wrinkles and sagging skin; i think your words will hold the same weight for me even without the flair. .....maybe getting triggered is helpful, i know it needs to come up to be seen through, but i think i get enough of it offline.
When I use caps or bolds I’m not doing it to yell at you or showing that I am frustrated with you. Not at all. Using bold and caps is my way of emphasizing the importance of certain sentences or words. I put certain words in caps to guide your attention to a certain direction. I might ask: “How does the ‘I’ is FELT?” – the word ‘felt’ is in caps to point your attention to the sensations itself that are labelled as ‘I’ (and not to other aspects of the self). Also, I write all my questions in blue, to help you see what you have to look for.

This is not personal; I use these type of emphasis with all my clients. If you ask me not use them, then I don’t know how could I show you the importance of certain things.

I understand that these caps triggered some conditionings in you. It’s quite common that during guidings old patterns and conditionings are triggered. When something is triggered, you can look for the self that is having those feelings and reactions. Actually, if you can see through the self when there is a strong trigger there, that seeing of no-self could chip off a small part of that conditioning. The more often you can look when there is a trigger, the weaker those conditionings become.

If I say to you that I’m not yelling at you with caps, would you still want me not to use them?
it seems like i have seen/experienced this a number of times, noticing and object noticed arising simultaneously and are the same thing..no split or dividing line as you have asked about. sometimes this is seen, and other times it is not seen.
When you say that sometimes it’s seen and other times it’s not that there is no dividing line, then do you mean that when looking? I mean when you look sometimes you see it, and with other looking you might not?

Because if you say that you can see it every time (I would use a caps here :) when you look, but you don’t see it when you don’t look, then that’s all right.

What I am interested in, if you can see every time when you look (caps again :) or not?
the stronger the sensations, the stronger the sense of i.
Yes, exactly. That’s why I commented above, that seeing through the self while a strong emotion/trigger is there is quite useful. And also, the seriousness of the trigger can lessen significantly.
ok back to the illusion of me, the sense of me. i feel frustrated because it seems like we are going around in circles.
But going in circles is part of the guiding process. Just as feeling stuck. We will go in circles until something clicks and the circle breaks. This is normal. Please be patient with yourself. We will go on with this investigation as long as it takes. I am here to help you. There is no rush, we have plenty of time. And we will investigate each topic very thoroughly, not leaving any stone unturned.

Please look for the one who/what is feeling frustrated. Search for it. Search for it until it drops there is nothing there what could feel frustrated.

Also look for the one that is feeling of being yelled at. Where is this ‘me’?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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