Fear decreasing

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:15 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My true Self has mistaken this body/mind as It’s Self. It is identified with an image in the mind. I have had a couple of experiences where when looking in there was no person/no me to be found; it’s like it’s just hollow.

What are you looking for at LU?
Hoping to find someone who can ask pertinent questions to assist me in going deeper into uncharted territory, to challenge my (gently and compassionately) beliefs about everything and help me in some way to be able to stay with fears that come up

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to find someone who can ask questions that I’ve not thought to ask, to assist me in staying with difficult stuff I’ve been avoiding because of fear—-of the Truth. I will, in return be as honest as I can possibly be.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Decades of ‘meditation,’ and in December of 2016 a retreat that taught Ramana Maharshi’s Self-inquiry—which appeared to be helpful in a shift to perfect stillness, calm, just observing—no thoughts no feelings nothing to change or do. Had that again when chanting my Guru’s names, and again twice while driving. Ammachi is my Guru for years, I do feel She is leading me towards liberation, but I also feel I need another human being with whom I can talk with personally. I have also felt the TERROR of being on “the edge” totally letting go, a few times; the terror has now become just fear, so I feel that’s huge progress.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:30 am

Hi,

My name is Vivien, and I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self' and other related topics.

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:45 am

How will Life change? I don't believe Life Itself will change...perhaps that's what's always changing...Never really defined, Life, before.

How will you change? I think I won't be so quick to react, I will pause, stop, slow down more; wise or wiser action will flow from this body/mind.

What will be different? I won't identify with this body/mind; I'll identify with what I truly AM. Pain can be present, but I don't think suffering will occur, or occur less and less as "time" goes on after Realization.

What is missing? Nothing is actually missing, that would be impossible. I'm failing to see Truth due to fascination with the mind/belief in the mind/body.

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:08 pm

HI Vivien, Thank you so much for being willing to use your time and energy to assist me in my quest for Self-Realization. I apologize for forgetting to hit the Quote button before replying to your thoughtful and wise questions....hopefully this will not happen again. In gratitude, Nameless1

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:08 am

Hi,

Is it all right if I call you Nameless? Or would you prefer something else?
Thank you so much for being willing to use your time and energy to assist me in my quest for Self-Realization.
You’re very welcome :)

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations results in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I think I won't be so quick to react, I will pause, stop, slow down more; wise or wiser action will flow from this body/mind.
This might or might not happen.
I won't identify with this body/mind;
Just because the self has seen through, it doesn’t mean that identification with the body/mind will never happen again. It certainly will! It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon investigation it can be seen that there is nothing behind the illusion.
I'll identify with what I truly AM.
I might disappoint you here, but there is NO TRUE or real “I AM”. There is no real Self (with capital S) either. The whole point of this investigation that no form of identification is needed, since there is no self in any shape or form to identify with.
My true Self has mistaken this body/mind as It’s Self.
There is no true Self either. Believing in a true Self is just another form of identification. It’s still a belief in a ME, just a better one :)
2016 a retreat that taught Ramana Maharshi’s Self-inquiry—which appeared to be helpful in a shift to perfect stillness, calm, just observing—no thoughts no feelings nothing to change or do.
It’s important to mention here, that the aim is not to get into a state where there is only observing going on with no feelings. That observer is still the subtle form of the belief in the self.

Seeing no-self is not a state. States come and go, but seeing no self is a shift in perception, which doesn’t require or involve any special state.
Pain can be present, but I don't think suffering will occur, or occur less and less as "time" goes on after Realization.
Suffering happens when being lost in thoughts happens. It means that the thoughts in that moment are not seen only as arising thoughts (only as ‘containers’ coming and going), but rather their ‘content’, what they are about is taken as reality. And of course, since each thought is about the self, the self is taken as something real. And this, let’s call ‘delusion’ still can happen even after seeing the illusion of the self. But when it’s investigated, it can be seen for what it is. But there is no guaranty that in the next moment the story of a self won’t reassert itself. It’s a habit of the mind. It’s a conditioned pattern of thinking. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker.

Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
I have also felt the TERROR of being on “the edge” totally letting go, a few times; the terror has now become just fear, so I feel that’s huge progress.
If this fear comes up, please let me know, and we can look at it together. Fear just means that there is a story about negative consequences of seeing through the self. So we can have a look on that story which is creating fear. All right?

Before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?


Let’s start it. As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and thought interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience.
Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:35 pm

Is it all right if I call you Nameless? Or would you prefer something else?
Nameless is fine
Before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?
The first comment brought up some fear and contraction in the body. The second comment brings up some slight disappointment; I expected some residual identification, but hoping it won't be lifelong. The third comment reminded me of my experience that there is no 'one,' just pure awareness...not freaking out here. The fourth comment brought up the experience noted above: what 'i' am is pure awareness. Your comment here?
Also, personality problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Thought is: that sucks; however, that's what people who've had the shift report, so no surprise here. I still very much want to know truth. Seems like shift or no shift, ignorance and bliss/seeming bliss are still a part of Life. ?
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me know how you go. Please write a list as above for one period of doing this exercise.
Hearing the birds= sound
Feeling the breeze on my arms= sensation
seeing the plant= sight
tasting the coffee= taste
smelling the morning air=smell
thought about work today=thought. I will do my best to spend the rest of the day...and coming days practicing this. Thank you, Vivien

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:57 am

Hi Nameless,
The first comment brought up some fear and contraction in the body.
Could you please say a bit more about this fear?
The third comment reminded me of my experience that there is no 'one,' just pure awareness...not freaking out here. The fourth comment brought up the experience noted above: what 'i' am is pure awareness. Your comment here?
With the statement “I am pure awareness", the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification, “I am that which is aware”…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object). And the identification with awareness is an excellent hiding place for the separate self. Since all the seeming realness of the separate self comes from the seeming realness of a standalone awareness. So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?

This awareness is an ultimate illusion, it really seems very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion.

Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?

Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
If yes, could you please explain why?
Hearing the birds= sound
Feeling the breeze on my arms= sensation
seeing the plant= sight
tasting the coffee= taste
smelling the morning air=smell
thought about work today=thought
Nice looking.

Now we start investigating thoughts.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 5-10 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.


Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:44 pm

Could you please say a bit more about this fear?
Although I'm attached to less and less as time goes on, there are still things that I'm still attached to, and changing certain parts of the self I identify with appears to be pretty strong....fear comes up at, what I believe you're saying is true....that those things may or may not change, triggers fear...or perhaps a letting go of some hope that I could become a "better person." I wonder if 'when' i have the shift, if those desires to change things about myself will still be present. ??
Do you see this?
WHOA!!! WOW! :)) hahaha I've said that I experienced myself as pure awareness/pure consciousness before to other people who've had the shift, but what you pointed out here was never said to me before. I can see what you're pointing to....wow! Something here is pretty clever, quite the game of hide and seek going on here? I'm more intrigued than I've ever been before. Thank you for pointing this out. My head feels like it's in a knot with this one, but knots can be undone!
Can you entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like?
Absolutely, I can entertain the possibility that awareness is not what it seems like. I am really more intrigued here...not sure if that's a positive thing or not.
Do you have a resistance to the notion that awareness might be an illusion too?
If yes, could you please explain why?
I'm not aware of any resistance that awareness might be an illusion also. I obviously am missing some major 'things.' It just feels like my mind is in a knot with this, as it's been with many other things as well.
Nice looking.
Thank you, Vivien.
Let me know how it goes.
I've only done one 5 minute sitting so far, but amazingly, for me, b/c I've never been able to notice the gaps between thoughts, I noticed gaps today. I was also able to see thoughts going away/ending/fading away...kind of like watching a leaf float by in a river. What made it difficult for me at times to stay with this was with some thoughts feelings/bodily sensations got triggered so the attention was put on "sensation." And the labeling of the sensation of course, but the thought and word, 'sensation' came more quickly than in the previous day. I will continue to practice this as often as I can throughout the coming days. Thank you, again, Vivien for being so giving of yourself and your time. May you have a peaceful day, or evening, whichever is the case.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:42 am

Hi Nameless,
or perhaps a letting go of some hope that I could become a "better person."
But if there is no person at all, that what could be better?
I wonder if 'when' i have the shift, if those desires to change things about myself will still be present. ??
It might or might not. But, upon looking it will be seen that there is nothing there (no self there) which is not good enough and needs changing.
there are still things that I'm still attached to, and changing certain parts of the self I identify with appears to be pretty strong....fear comes up at, what I believe you're saying is true....that those things may or may not change, triggers fear...
So the fear is about that certain thing will stay the say as they are?
WHOA!!! WOW! :)) hahaha I've said that I experienced myself as pure awareness/pure consciousness before to other people who've had the shift, but what you pointed out here was never said to me before. I can see what you're pointing to....wow! Something here is pretty clever, quite the game of hide and seek going on here?
It’s very good that you can see this :) this will help a lot with the inquiry
I am really more intrigued here...not sure if that's a positive thing or not.
That’s good when looking is combined with curiosity.
I've only done one 5 minute sitting so far, but amazingly, for me, b/c I've never been able to notice the gaps between thoughts, I noticed gaps today. I was also able to see thoughts going away/ending/fading away...kind of like watching a leaf float by in a river
Very good. We did this exercise to help you how to notice thoughts.

The whole illusion is mainly created by thoughts. So therefore, we will investigate thoughts and thought labels thoroughly.
So then let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions. Look for the ‘answer’ BEFORE thought interpretation kicks in similarly as you did with the previous exercise.

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?


Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:55 pm

Hi Vivien, I apologize for missing a day. Weird thing: I knew you responded and it was 'my turn' to write, and then later in the day I was awaiting your reply...?? and then fell asleep. I am very much appreciating these exercises, and appreciate you and the time and energy you are using to help me wake up/realize the Truth. :)
So the fear is about that certain thing will stay the say as they are?
Yes, and the dream won't get better. :) I think this seemingly separate self will always want more/better, but as with all things I could very well be wrong here.
Where do thoughts come from?
I get an image of the vast, black with billions of stars/planets, and the word, 'memory.'
Where are they going?
I get another image of vapor and how it just dissipates
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Initially, it appeared i could stop two of them. The experience of a complete thought...hard to explain here, the first part of a thought were clear words 'spoken' in the mind and the rest of the thought passing so quickly and 'silently' that it almost appeared as though i could interrupt a thought. Fear is coming up here again. Something here knows it's going to be annihilated, Truth is going to be discovered....heart beating hard and fast. Sensation.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
No
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts? No. It seems as though sometimes i can intentionally bring up a positive thought/image AFTER a negative one, as an effort to stop another negative thought, but that is not the same as stopping a thought.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
I can not find one. Thoughts appear to arise 'on their own.'
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
:) I can't find this, "I." Thoughts appear 'on their own somehow,' as far as i can see.
What is the thinker of thoughts? – don’t think, rather look for a ‘thinker’
I can not find a thinker. More fear coming up here. Fear of realizing that this separate self doesn't really exist, or that it's going to 'die.'
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
I can not find a thinker. For some time now, when looking closely, the experience is that there is an observer of thoughts, but haven't been able to find 'One' who generates them. For a couple of years i have been more identified, in formal meditation, as the observer of the thoughts, not the thinker.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Yes, i believe the 'i' is also a thought, but i want to KNOW it, not just believe it.
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
:) I believe, and can even get some vague sense right now that, yes, 'i' am just being thought.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
I don't know. It seems like thoughts can slow down when performing 'spiritual practices' so perhaps the answer is to this question is yes. I'd love to find out for myself if this is true or not.

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:30 pm

Hi Vivien,

I forgot to mention that when looking for the gaps between thoughts, “i” kept seeing images, some that were familiar and some that were abstract like; an example is a cluster of different colored bubbles. I found seeing happening for some seconds before actual labeling began.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:15 am

Hi Nameless,
the first part of a thought were clear words 'spoken' in the mind and the rest of the thought passing so quickly and 'silently' that it almost appeared as though i could interrupt a thought. Fear is coming up here again. Something here knows it's going to be annihilated, Truth is going to be discovered....heart beating hard and fast. Sensation.
Before replying to your other comments, at first let’s look at this a fear a bit closer.

The self cannot be annihilated, since it has never been there in the first place. What has never existed cannot die.
I can not find a thinker. More fear coming up here. Fear of realizing that this separate self doesn't really exist, or that it's going to 'die.'
How could something die which has never ever been there? Which has always just been a fantasy, an illusion?

Seeing through the self won’t change anything. The only thing that changes is that there will be an experiential understanding that the self is not there, it’s just assumed to be there.

But the self won’t stop appearing! The sense of self will still be there. So there is nothing to be afraid of.

Seeing no self is just a shift in perception, like with these images bellow. As if you were seeing only in one way for your whole life, and now there’s a shift, and you can see from a different perspective. But you can still see the original, old version too. From now on, you can switch back and forth between the two.
Image
Image
It’s similar when you’re watching a movie which is so enchanting that you completely forget that you’re in a movie theatre, sitting in a chair, watching images projected onto the screen. It totally seems like and feels like as if you’re in scenes of the movie together with the characters. And then suddenly, you ‘wake up’ from this illusion. But the movie will still go on. You just discover that the whole movie is just a fantasy. But the movie will go on, it won’t stop appearing. So there is only a perception shift. This is the same with seeing through the self.

Let me know what comes up and what happens with the fear when reading this.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:32 am

Let me know what comes up and what happens with the fear when reading this.
When the fear was coming up while doing the exercises something reminded me, for the first time during an episode of fear, that nothing can die or be annihilated because nothing is there....and I've experienced that, so I think that is one reason the fear did not get stronger and instead began dissipating. But while reading your responses to the fear that comes up, I was aware of bodily sensations, not intense, but nonetheless still present in the body. I'm reminded of a time when practicing self inquiry that a blackness appeared and it brought up great fear because i sensed death. For some reason, and for the first and only time, something within me said, "I'm not moving, you can kill me right now, but I'm not moving." And, I didn't; however, what I was hoping would happen did not, ie., Liberation. Instead what happened was the blackness went away, whatever was there to kill me, vanished. I was angry because I didn't move, and "i" was still there. I know the dream/movie still goes on ever after Self realization, and, I've experienced no one inside this body, so really, I don't know what the hell I'm so afraid of. And, i know people who've had the shift and they report being better off for it.

I'm still doing my best to practice looking at thoughts, gaps, and experience actual experience. I feel frustrated at times because the thoughts come and go so fast sometimes. And, other times I'm, or the mind is trying to figure out which to practice===looking at thoughts and gaps, or actual direct experience. Thank you for listening, Vivien

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:58 am

Hi Nameless,
I'm reminded of a time when practicing self inquiry that a blackness appeared and it brought up great fear because i sensed death.
Death cannot be sensed at all. Only sensations cannot be sensed/felt. This is just all the play of thoughts. But this will be much clearer later as we go further.
I'm still doing my best to practice looking at thoughts, gaps, and experience actual experience. I feel frustrated at times because the thoughts come and go so fast sometimes. And, other times I'm, or the mind is trying to figure out which to practice===looking at thoughts and gaps, or actual direct experience.
You don’t have to practise anything. But you can look at those questions I’m asking during the day too. That would help a lot.
Now I get back to your previous comments on thoughts:
V: Where do thoughts come from?
N: I get an image of the vast, black with billions of stars/planets, and the word, 'memory.'
When I ask you a question, I always ask you to look at the actual experience.

This image is NOT the AE of the source where thoughts are coming from, but rather the AE of a mental image. Can you see this?

Thoughts coming from memory is a thought explanation, it’s an intellectual answer. But we have to look at the actual experience to see if this statement is in correspondence with the experience.

In order to say that thoughts are coming from memory:

- first you have to find THE memory itself. Not just thoughts and mental images about it, but the ACTUAL memory itself.
- When you have found the memory itself, then you have to be able to see the process as thoughts are leaving or coming from that place.

So, where is this memory located EXACTLY?

Can it be seen that thoughts are coming from the memory?
Can it be experienced in any way at all (that thoughts are coming from memory)?

So, where does thoughts come from?
V: Where are they going?
N: I get another image of vapor and how it just dissipates
This is a mental image trying to explain where thoughts are going to.

But what is it that can be ACTUALLY KNOWN?
Where do thoughts going to?
I can not find a thinker. For some time now, when looking closely, the experience is that there is an observer of thoughts, but haven't been able to find 'One' who generates them. For a couple of years i have been more identified, in formal meditation, as the observer of the thoughts, not the thinker.
In order to say that there is an observer, this observer needs to be found.

So where is this observer EXACTLY?
Look everywhere. Search through the whole body from head to toe. Especially pay close attention to the head. Look inside the eyes, behind the eyes, at the top of the head, the back of the head, the middle of the head, the throat, everywhere.
Where is it exactly? Locate it.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Nameless1
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 am

Re: Fear decreasing

Postby Nameless1 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:25 am

This image is NOT the AE of the source where thoughts are coming from, but rather the AE of a mental image. Can you see this?
Yes, this is crystal clear from your pointing.
So, where is this memory located EXACTLY?
I would say that the only place it could be is here...in that particular moment. I think the only place anything can be is, here.
Can it be seen that thoughts are coming from the me.mory?
Only after the the mental image has been identified as memory.
Can it be experienced in any way at all (that thoughts are coming from memory)?
No, not as far as i can tell.
So, where does thoughts come from?
I have no clue as AE. As actual experience a couple of times it was seen that there is only here, but something here wants to say that thoughts come from the mind, from the thinker, or from 'The Great Source." But none of that is AE.
But what is it that can be ACTUALLY KNOWN?
From this vantage point, (AE) nothing. Can sound, sensation, image/color, taste, smell be KNOWN? or just experienced? I think---there i go thinking again, but i think those things can only be experienced.
Where do thoughts going to?
i have no clue! back where they came from? but i have no clue where that is either.
So where is this observer EXACTLY?
For a few seconds it seemed like the observer was above and just outside of this body and the body was inside the observer, that was my experience. That isn't a location....i want to say the observer is, here, just, here.
Where is it exactly? Locate it.
It is right here

Nameless1


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests