Realization Unfolding

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:23 pm

So..
If there is no control on thoughts, can we talk about a free will ?
Let's look;
I want you look back into the story of your life and find one important decision that you made.
Can be anything - choosing your school - partner - starting a job etc..

Then ask this:

Could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation? Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?
Can you choose something that is not "right"?

Write what you notice doing this exercise.

Then bring focus to hear now.
Can anything be different than what it already is? How do you know that?

What is that made the choose to be here now?
Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?


Waiting for your answers
Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:07 am

Could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
I don't feel like I could've. I only knew what I knew at that time in my life and nothing about what would follow after making a specific decision. If I make a good choice then good. But if I make a poor decision thats alright too. I feel like it's just apart of life.
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
I feel like in the present moment, you only know what you know. One takes that and feels a certain way about a decision and chooses based on that, if we are able to choose in the first place. I can't say for certain if it was the only way to proceed but if you make a decision that resonates and feels good then at that moment it is the best decision.

In hindsight I feel like there are many different courses of action that could've led to an overall better "Outcome" but we can't fully predict how the future will turn out. Even when looking back on the past were still using our imagination to predict how things would turn out given we made a different choice. It's not reality and it isn't true so at the end of the day its just another fiction our mind worked up.
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation? Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?
I feel like the situation had an impact on my decision, but at the end of the day I had to make the call. The situation definitely impacts what overall decision one makes, but another big part of that is what feels best to each person, at least to me.
I cant tell for certain if free will was involved because like thinking, stuff just happens. So maybe that's what its like with decisions.
Can you choose something that is not "right"?
No, whatever you choose is neither right or wrong, its just a choice. Looking back on it and giving it labels and replaying alternate scenarios is what makes it "right" or "wrong"
Can anything be different than what it already is? How do you know that?
You can't change what already is. And what already is can't be something different. I know this because what already is lies in my direct experience.
What is that made the choose to be here now?
This is interesting because I don't feel like I made choices in particular to be here in the first place, but here I am. I could've done a hundred other things tonight but I'm sitting here in my room writing. The "Is" that made the choice is probably my actual experience and reality.
Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?
It doesn't make a difference because if "you" never existed then you didn't really make the decision in the first place, its just current experience experiencing experience, and then its our hindsight that brings other scenarios and narcissistic thinking patterns.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:20 pm

Could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
I don't feel like I could've. I only knew what I knew at that time in my life and nothing about what would follow after making a specific decision. If I make a good choice then good. But if I make a poor decision thats alright too. I feel like it's just apart of life.
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
I feel like in the present moment, you only know what you know. One takes that and feels a certain way about a decision and chooses based on that, if we are able to choose in the first place. I can't say for certain if it was the only way to proceed but if you make a decision that resonates and feels good then at that moment it is the best decision.

In hindsight I feel like there are many different courses of action that could've led to an overall better "Outcome" but we can't fully predict how the future will turn out. Even when looking back on the past were still using our imagination to predict how things would turn out given we made a different choice. It's not reality and it isn't true so at the end of the day its just another fiction our mind worked up.
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation? Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?
I feel like the situation had an impact on my decision, but at the end of the day I had to make the call. The situation definitely impacts what overall decision one makes, but another big part of that is what feels best to each person, at least to me.
I cant tell for certain if free will was involved because like thinking, stuff just happens. So maybe that's what its like with decisions.
Can you choose something that is not "right"?
No, whatever you choose is neither right or wrong, its just a choice. Looking back on it and giving it labels and replaying alternate scenarios is what makes it "right" or "wrong"
Can anything be different than what it already is? How do you know that?
You can't change what already is. And what already is can't be something different. I know this because what already is lies in my direct experience.
What is that made the choose to be here now?
This is interesting because I don't feel like I made choices in particular to be here in the first place, but here I am. I could've done a hundred other things tonight but I'm sitting here in my room writing. The "Is" that made the choice is probably my actual experience and reality.
Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?
It doesn't make a difference because if "you" never existed then you didn't really make the decision in the first place, its just current experience experiencing experience, and then its our hindsight that brings other scenarios and narcissistic thinking patterns.
Thank you for the food direct looking Harrison..
Let's look more..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:22 pm

Let's look to the idea of seperation now..

Now it is a weeked and maybe you can go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole.
See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life? Are you outside this movement or it is a whole ?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole? Anything missing ? If yes how do you know ?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? or witnessing is also a part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:54 am

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary?
I don't see a boundary between me and what is "out there"
Is there an inside and an outside of Life? Are you outside this movement or it is a whole ?
I don't believe there is an inside and outside of life, from what I can see it is always ongoing and a whole.
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole? Anything missing ? If yes how do you know ?
Not certain, but if the whole is actually whole then It can't have anything missing
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? or witnessing is also a part of the one movement too?
I feel like I am witnessing these experiences or experiencing experience, although at the end of the day I am still apart of the whole and have never been apart of it.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Anything that isn't happening is in ones thoughts in the form of past or present, it isn't actually reality so it can't be happening. Other than that everything is just happening as it is.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 pm

Thank you for the answers Harrison

I see that altough your answer are true you start your words with "Not certain and i dont believe, i feel like"
this points to uncertainty. We need direct looking
As we mentioned before the term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now.
I would like to kindly remind you don't think in detail, simply look.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole? LOOK!


Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Where is it can you locate ?
LOOK
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:38 pm

feel like I am witnessing these experiences or experiencing experience

There is witnessing yes.
There is the self aware experience yes.

But can you locate a witness ? Can you talk about it's structure ?
What is the actual experience of a separate witness ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:40 pm

Look at breathing. You can see that breathing is happening. You can see that labelling the movement
'I am breathing' does not change the movement. Breathing is happening no matter if I label is used or not.
Same with everything else- sitting, reading, scratching an itch, walking, talking, witnessing, observing, thinking...
is there I that is doing all this? Is there a breather, thinker, witness, walker, talker...?
Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter?
Is there an experiencer outside of experience happening?


Sending much love..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:22 am

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole? LOOK!
There isn't, everything else that isn't within our direct experience isn't reality.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Where is it can you locate ?
LOOK
I can't see a witness directly so there isn't a direct witness that's locatable.
But can you locate a witness ? Can you talk about it's structure ?
No. I can't locate or put a specific point onto where a witness is. The structure of experiencing experience is through the senses and what is in my direct experience.
What is the actual experience of a separate witness ?
I can't directly experience a separate witness, or the witness witnessing experience.
Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter?
No, labels like breather or walker are all just that, labels and nothing more. The mind tries to identify with the labels, when in reality there only purpose is to help us communicate.
Is there an experiencer outside of experience happening?
This is interesting, because if I am experiencing these experiences in my direct experience, then who is perceiving these experiences being experienced? Its like a never ending cycle of perceiving experience.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:36 am

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole? LOOK!
There isn't, everything else that isn't within our direct experience isn't reality.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Where is it can you locate ?
LOOK
I can't see a witness directly so there isn't a direct witness that's locatable.
But can you locate a witness ? Can you talk about it's structure ?
No. I can't locate or put a specific point onto where a witness is. The structure of experiencing experience is through the senses and what is in my direct experience.
What is the actual experience of a separate witness ?
I can't directly experience a separate witness, or the witness witnessing experience.
Do you become a breather if the breath is conscious? Do you become a walker, a sitter?
No, labels like breather or walker are all just that, labels and nothing more. The mind tries to identify with the labels, when in reality there only purpose is to help us communicate.
Is there an experiencer outside of experience happening?
This is interesting, because if I am experiencing these experiences in my direct experience, then who is perceiving these experiences being experienced? Its like a never ending cycle of perceiving experience.
Thank you very much for the answers Harrison,
Brilliant looking..
This is interesting, because if I am experiencing these experiences in my direct experience, then who is perceiving these experiences being experienced? Its like a never ending cycle of perceiving experience.
Experience is aware of it self yes.
But is there a "you" detached from the experience, from the whole, from what is ?
If yes where is it, what form ?
Does experience need "someone" "a center" to be experienced ?


Its like a never ending cycle of perceiving experience
Sure you can make a thought definition for "what is.."
What i see when i look is "what is.." How is it different for you ?


Sending much love..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:45 am

After answering my previous pieces of the questions let's look now to this idea of body,
Does body really exist ?

Let's make an exercise for this,

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? If yes how can you know this ?

Does the body have a weight or volume? If yes how can you know this ?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience(s) of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last queston. Take your time, don’t rush.
You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washng hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:44 am

Can it be known how tall the body is? If yes how can you know this ?
No you can't know how tall the body is
Does the body have a weight or volume? If yes how can you know this ?
Sitting here, I feel the pressure of the body on the chair. I can't know the weight of the body or the volume but I can feel the pressure exerted on the body parts when I sit, walk, lay down, etc.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
I can feel the figure of the body, so in actual experience I wouldn't say the body has a shape or a form but instead feelings and senses.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Yes there is a boundary because I can be in contact with items like a chair or clothes, but I can't move through them or become them.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It refers to the senses and feelings that you perceive through in this physical form.
What is the ACTUAL experience(s) of the body?
Im taking my time to look a little more carefully before I post an answer to this question! Ill have an answer after just a little more looking.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:39 am

Thanks for the answers Harrison..
Let's see
Can it be known how tall the body is? If yes how can you know this ?
No you can't know how tall the body is
Sure you can't know..

Does the body have a weight or volume? If yes how can you know this ?
Sitting here, I feel the pressure of the body on the chair. I can't know the weight of the body or the volume but I can feel the pressure exerted on the body parts when I sit, walk, lay down, etc.
Sure. There is only the sensation labelled "pressure."

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
I can feel the figure of the body, so in actual experience I wouldn't say the body has a shape or a form but instead feelings and senses.
Yes. There is no shape or a form.
There is sensation and maybe thought labeling of that sensation.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? Yes there is a boundary because I can be in contact with items like a chair or clothes, but I can't move through them or become them.
Would you please look at this one more time ? Where is this boundary ?
Or is it just a thought content describing details of this pressure sensation ?
How can you know a "boundary" without thought ?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It refers to the senses and feelings that you perceive through in this physical form.
Yes sure it refers to sensations..
What is the ACTUAL experience(s) of the body?
Im taking my time to look a little more carefully before I post an answer to this question! Ill have an answer after just a little more looking.
[/quote]

Sure Harrison but let's make it more clear by using more pointers..

Does the label/word (thought) ‘body’ know anything about a body?
Does sensation know anything about a body?
Does colour know anything about a body?
Does sound know anything about a body?
Does taste know anything about a body?
Does smell know anything about a body?


Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:35 am

Does the label/word (thought) ‘body’ know anything about a body?
No because this is just a thought and not in my actual experience.
Does sensation know anything about a body?
Sensation is just sensation. Thinking about sensation brings up the body, but sensation. alone doesn't know anything about the body.
Does colour know anything about a body?
Color doesnt know anything either.
Does sound know anything about a body?
Sound doesn't.
Does taste know anything about a body?
No, taste doesn't either.
Does smell know anything about a body?
Neither does smell.
What is the ACTUAL experience(s) of the body?
The actual experience of the body is experience itself. Everything just is as it Is, without mental noise experience is just experience, unlabeled and unconditioned.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 am

Thank you for the answers Harrison

What is the ACTUAL experience(s) of the body?
The actual experience of the body is experience itself. Everything just is as it Is, without mental noise experience is just experience, unlabeled and unconditioned.
as we are exploring the idea of the body, so can you please answer from actual experience to what the body is.
Is it the actual experience of the body sound, thought, sensation, smell, taste or colour?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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