Realization Unfolding

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:43 am

What is different? Which one is more vivid? Is it true, that direct experience of being in
the kitchen is same like imagined experience?
Is thought world reality?
I pictured my kitchen in as much detail as I could as well as the strawberry I was going to eat when I got down there. In my mind I pictured the lights on, dishwasher running like how I left it, the cold hardwood floor, etc. When I finished and actually went down stairs the first thing that caught my attention was the lights being off instead of on. I was pretty sure I left them on but my roommate must've turned them off. The second thing was the dishwasher done with its cycle, I thought the cycle still had time left but I guess it finished. The smell wasn't similar to what I thought as well, I think there is something rotten in the fridge and it was putting off a funky aroma. And lastly the taste of the strawberry was sweet like I imagined, but the experience of the cold strawberry juices and the fresh taste wasn't something I had imagined or how I thought it would be.

The thought world can come close to how we think reality will be, but it won't be actual reality, like the taste of the fresh strawberry being fresher and tastier than I expected and imagined. So the thought world can't be reality because if we are directly experiencing the experience it can't be reality, only something we assume or think will be.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:16 am

What is different? Which one is more vivid? Is it true, that direct experience of being in
the kitchen is same like imagined experience?
Is thought world reality?
I pictured my kitchen in as much detail as I could as well as the strawberry I was going to eat when I got down there. In my mind I pictured the lights on, dishwasher running like how I left it, the cold hardwood floor, etc. When I finished and actually went down stairs the first thing that caught my attention was the lights being off instead of on. I was pretty sure I left them on but my roommate must've turned them off. The second thing was the dishwasher done with its cycle, I thought the cycle still had time left but I guess it finished. The smell wasn't similar to what I thought as well, I think there is something rotten in the fridge and it was putting off a funky aroma. And lastly the taste of the strawberry was sweet like I imagined, but the experience of the cold strawberry juices and the fresh taste wasn't something I had imagined or how I thought it would be.

The thought world can come close to how we think reality will be, but it won't be actual reality, like the taste of the fresh strawberry being fresher and tastier than I expected and imagined. So the thought world can't be reality because if we are directly experiencing the experience it can't be reality, only something we assume or think will be.
Beautiful looking.
Thank you.
I see that you get what i expect to get from this exercise.
Sure it is not actual reality.
Thought can say million things but
smell is smell
colour is colour
sound is sound
sensation is sensation.

We will be staying more with the actual experiences but let's take a look then how this thought works and do "we" have any effect on thought...
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:22 am

Let's look deeper to the thought

As you can see the content of thought is more thoughts.
A thought is empty of content.
Thought, in and of itself does not contain any actual experience.

As we saw before you can't find an actual ‘fish’ in the word/thought/label ‘fish’?

Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?


Ok, so let's look now, where thoughts are actually coming from, where they go.. How they work..

Sit down relax for 10 mins. Drop any kind of distractions..

Focus on any kind of thought appearing and ask questions below one by one and answer please..

Wait for the next thought and look,

where is it coming from and where is it going?

Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Is there a thinker?

Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?

Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?

Do you really have control over thoughts?

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?

Can a thought think?

What can a thought do ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:47 am

Harrison ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:55 am

Sorry Adil, I usually check back here after I get off work and I just realized my answers to yesterdays questions were typed out but not submitted. I won't have anymore delays moving forward.
Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?
You can't find an actual "I" In anything that your mind created in thought because that isn't reality.
where is it coming from and where is it going?
The thought just appears, I can't tell exactly where it comes from, its just there. I can sort of feel one thought fade out and another thought replace it, like my mind is just jumping from a less interesting thought to a more interesting one.
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
No, I can't tell what the next thought is before it arrives, it just pops in.
Can you stop a thought from coming?
For a brief second if I change my focus to my breath and ground myself I can feel the presence of thought go away, but otherwise I can't really stop them from coming, they just form.
Is there a thinker?
I suppose not, if I can't control my own thoughts as well as I thought then I guess I can't be thinking them in the first place, like I can't just think that I'm going to think up a thought, that's just a paradox cause then who is thinking the thought of thinking in the first place.
Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
Thoughts pop in although if I'm focusing on a task like mental math the thoughts direct themselves to my attention, I think.
Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?
This is hard to answer, because I feel like I switch between thoughts so fast it seems almost like I'm thinking two things or three things at once, but I don't think there can be more than one thought at a time.
Do you really have control over thoughts?
No I don't think so
Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
Its coming from the same place where all thoughts come from, I feel like you have certain emotions and feelings tied up with thoughts or memories and that's where the label "special" comes from. In the end of the day a thought is just a thought and it comes from where all thoughts come from.
Can a thought think?
I don't think so but I'm totally sure.
What can a thought do ?
Thoughts are kind of just.. there. They don't really do anything directly to us but they can influence reactions in us, make us feel stirred up or anxious, and that can make us react.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:32 am

Sorry Adil, I usually check back here after I get off work and I just realized my answers to yesterdays questions were typed out but not submitted. I won't have anymore delays moving forward.
That's ok Harrison. IT is life's work :)
Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?
You can't find an actual "I" In anything that your mind created in thought because that isn't reality.
Sure there is no actual experience of a thought content.
where is it coming from and where is it going?
The thought just appears, I can't tell exactly where it comes from, its just there. I can sort of feel one thought fade out and another thought replace it, like my mind is just jumping from a less interesting thought to a more interesting one.


Yes. as you said "it just appears". Then disappears. That's all..
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
No, I can't tell what the next thought is before it arrives, it just pops in.
Sure no.
Can you stop a thought from coming?
For a brief second if I change my focus to my breath and ground myself I can feel the presence of thought go away, but otherwise I can't really stop them from coming, they just form.
It is impossible to stop a thought from coming. While you think that you stopped that thought you are in an other thought which is "now i will change my focus to breath and ground my self" :)
That is another thought which popped up without any effort..
Is there a thinker?
I suppose not, if I can't control my own thoughts as well as I thought then I guess I can't be thinking them in the first place, like I can't just think that I'm going to think up a thought, that's just a paradox cause then who is thinking the thought of thinking in the first place.
Yes thinker can only be another thought content when it arises..


Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
Thoughts pop in although if I'm focusing on a task like mental math the thoughts direct themselves to my attention, I think.
Sure. They just pop in.
Thoughts are self aware like all other experience.
There is no one rotating attention to them.
Is it possible to think more than a thought at a time?
This is hard to answer, because I feel like I switch between thoughts so fast it seems almost like I'm thinking two things or three things at once, but I don't think there can be more than one thought at a time.
As you said you "switch between them" You will see that it is one by one when you focus more.
Do you really have control over thoughts?
No I don't think so
Don't think HArrison Look!
We will have another exercise for this to make you see more!

Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
Its coming from the same place where all thoughts come from, I feel like you have certain emotions and feelings tied up with thoughts or memories and that's where the label "special" comes from. In the end of the day a thought is just a thought and it comes from where all thoughts come from.
Yes sure it is same as other thoughts.
Can a thought think?
I don't think so but I'm totally sure.
Sure a thought can't think!
What can a thought do ?
Thoughts are kind of just.. there. They don't really do anything directly to us but they can influence reactions in us, make us feel stirred up or anxious, and that can make us react.
[/quote]

Wonderfully said "Thoughts are kind of just.. there"
They just are.
Thought just is..

LEt's look more ;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:38 am

Dear Harrison
If you have questions until now please feel free to ask anything..

The thought “I” is pointing not to the doer, but to other thoughts about the doer. There is no doer.
Look again. Examine the label “school”.

What does this label point to? Is there such a thing as a school in real life?

There are buildings, students, books, classes, teachers… are any of them “school”? Or is it just a word that we use for communication so we can understand each other?

Can you look now at the word/label “I” in the same way? What does it point to ?


After you look at these questions please read the article below and make the exercise there and report to me what comes please..

Thank you

Sending much love :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:10 am

Do you really have control over thoughts?
No I don't think so
Don't think HArrison Look!
We will have another exercise for this to make you see more!

Thoughts appear, then thought about that thought appears..A sound comes attention is carried away new thought appears..Then another..Stomach becomes empty thought "i am hungry what shall i eat" appears..Then pee comes and thought "is there toilet around" appears..Then another thought "maybe i can control my thoughts.." thought appears..
But where they came from ? Is there a controller choosing that ? How was the choosing made ?
Choose a number between 1-10! NOW!
Chosen or not ?
Why ? Because i said so ?
How that thought appeared..LEt's say it is 7 why not 9 but 7 ?
How was the choosing made ?

You can see how automatic they arise by looking these pointers Harrison :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:09 am

Thank you Adil, if I have any questions that pop up ill be sure to ask!
What does this label point to? Is there such a thing as a school in real life?
Theres no such thing as "school" in real life. Its just a label created and associated by thought.
There are buildings, students, books, classes, teachers… are any of them “school”? Or is it just a word that we use for communication so we can understand each other?
Yes, these are all labels created by us to help us communicate, other than that they are nothing more than just a thought associated label with no reality to them.
Can you look now at the word/label “I” in the same way? What does it point to ?
I is just a label as well, and thoughts that follow when I say "I" are only thoughts and nothing more. Theres no reality to "I" because it isn't in my direct experience so "I" can't be true or real.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Thank you Adil, if I have any questions that pop up ill be sure to ask!
What does this label point to? Is there such a thing as a school in real life?
Theres no such thing as "school" in real life. Its just a label created and associated by thought.
There are buildings, students, books, classes, teachers… are any of them “school”? Or is it just a word that we use for communication so we can understand each other?
Yes, these are all labels created by us to help us communicate, other than that they are nothing more than just a thought associated label with no reality to them.
Can you look now at the word/label “I” in the same way? What does it point to ?
I is just a label as well, and thoughts that follow when I say "I" are only thoughts and nothing more. Theres no reality to "I" because it isn't in my direct experience so "I" can't be true or real.
Thank you for the answers Harrison
Brilliant looking.
Sorry i see that i haven't given you the link for Ilona's article with the exercise..

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

please read the article above and make the exercise there and report to me what comes. ok ?

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:42 am

Hi Adil!

The article was insightful and the activity was pretty eye opening!

I was working on the second half of the activity, writing down my experiences without "I" or "me" and I noticed a little change in my body and the way I perceived the room I was in. I became very relaxed and simply acknowledged each experience, with this the room started to feel very calm and clear. Labels weren't really in the way and I wasn't focusing on my thoughts, just feeling pure experience. Without the unnecessary labels the room was just there being experienced, and the label "I" or "me" was only a label as well.

But without the "I" what is here experiencing these experiences? Is it nothing?

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:15 am

Hi Adil!

The article was insightful and the activity was pretty eye opening!

I was working on the second half of the activity, writing down my experiences without "I" or "me" and I noticed a little change in my body and the way I perceived the room I was in. I became very relaxed and simply acknowledged each experience, with this the room started to feel very calm and clear. Labels weren't really in the way and I wasn't focusing on my thoughts, just feeling pure experience. Without the unnecessary labels the room was just there being experienced, and the label "I" or "me" was only a label as well.

But without the "I" what is here experiencing these experiences? Is it nothing?
Thank you for doing the exercise.. I see that you have seen what i expect from you to see.
Sure without the "i" it is more open and clear...the heart knows.
The more conditioning falls away, the more everything feels effortless. So after the core belief in separation falls, there is a cleaning-up period.
It unfolds by itself. It’s a ride without rider!
It is not "you" doing things, but life living life.
We cannot say it is "nothing"
We can say is the experience experiencing itself.
Awareness is aware or experience is aware, or self aware experience.
These are just words. It just is..

Let's look more ;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:22 am

Then let's take a look how spontaneous the experience (now let's take decision as experience) appears..
Let's go on from your previous statement,

I asked you remember;
Do you really have control over thoughts?
No I don't think so
Let's make this crystal clear with an experiment;

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down. 2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Aobi
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby Aobi » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:44 am

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
There isn't anything that is choosing which hand to raise. It seems thoughts can have an influence towards how we may move, but that isn't the deciding factor.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
No, there is no separate individual or puppet master choosing which hand raises and which hand stays put.
What is it that is controlling the hand?
It seems like my actual experience has influence over what moves depending on the situation, however I can't tell what directly controls the hand.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
There doesn't appear to be anything that can be located.
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
No, it appears decision less.
How is the decision made?
A decision isn't made, it just happens.

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adilerten
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Re: Realization Unfolding

Postby adilerten » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:20 pm

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
There isn't anything that is choosing which hand to raise. It seems thoughts can have an influence towards how we may move, but that isn't the deciding factor.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
No, there is no separate individual or puppet master choosing which hand raises and which hand stays put.
What is it that is controlling the hand?
It seems like my actual experience has influence over what moves depending on the situation, however I can't tell what directly controls the hand.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
There doesn't appear to be anything that can be located.
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
No, it appears decision less.
How is the decision made?
A decision isn't made, it just happens.
Perfect looking Harrison.
Thank you.

Can you explain this a bit more:
It seems like my actual experience has influence over what moves depending on the situation
Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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