Not sure if I have crossed the gate

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:08 pm

Hi Kay :)
Yes, however, without thought how is a sensation known as a sensation. Is it not simply experience which thought has labelled as ‘sensation’? Therefore Knowing knows itself as itself, no matter what is SEEMS to appear as or be labelled as?
Yes, exactly, its just a experience then thought comes in to label it as sensation (or emotion lol).... Ive reflected on this. Same could be said about colors. Or sounds. Without the label thought puts on, how can it be known as a thing other than just awareness or experienced awareness?....
As above, if you ignore all those labels..what remains?
Experience experiencing itself, being aware of itself as THAT.
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with?
Just experience, awareness, THAT, IS.
The thoughts appearing that are labelled as ‘others thoughts’ are simply thoughts appearing. Are ‘your’ thoughts actually happening in a head? Do thought actually have a location?
No location, that would be a thought or label: "They are appearing in my head" or "In this location", etc.
Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?
That personal I is just a thought story that comes and goes along with other thoughts...
Just the story of a character called Z, who SEEMS to be the thinker of thought and thinks that there are others and that they are thinking things about him!
Waking up from the matrix with this one lol...
Do thoughts know what they are saying?
No, they are just a story, a dream, etc.
Without thought, how is it known that what is being said is an actual language that is understood by the ‘me’ and by the other?

Without thought, its nothing lol.... today I was taking a walk, and hearing 'others' talk, I remember what you mention of you replace the voice with tweeting of birds, what would be different? the meaning I had given before as thought, now would only be sounds.... tweets lol.
The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ actually refers to AE of thought and NOT AE of a body. A label is a thought, so a label is AE of thought.
Yes, thank you! Same as the example above about a table... the label table is just a thought... and not the table itself, which is color, etc... and when you add the label, you dont 'see' the table, you see the thought label.
The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to colour, sensation, smell, sound etc and infers that it is a body.
You got me on this one, a bit of a trick question. So AE of a car would be a thought, because that points color, sounds, etc?
Can an actual body be found in colour, sensation, smell, sound etc?
No! lol.... body remains at the level of thought being just a label, to give meaning to 'something', to separate reality into different objects, etc.

Thanks Kay :)

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forgetmenot
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:59 am

Hello Z,
Yes, however, without thought how is a sensation known as a sensation. Is it not simply experience which thought has labelled as ‘sensation’? Therefore Knowing knows itself as itself, no matter what is SEEMS to appear as or be labelled as?
Yes, exactly, its just a experience then thought comes in to label it as sensation (or emotion lol).... Ive reflected on this. Same could be said about colors. Or sounds. Without the label thought puts on, how can it be known as a thing other than just awareness or experienced awareness?....
What exactly is it that is experiencing awareness? That points to two….experience and awareness.
As above, if you ignore all those labels..what remains?
Experience experiencing itself, being aware of itself as THAT.
Experience cannot experience itself…it would have to be outside of itself to experience itself!

Where is the dividing line between experience and awareness?
Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, see-er, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
If yes, can you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses?

If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with?
Just experience, awareness, THAT, IS.
It is simply experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is.
Without thought, how is it known that what is being said is an actual language that is understood by the ‘me’ and by the other?
Without thought, its nothing lol.... today I was taking a walk, and hearing 'others' talk, I remember what you mention of you replace the voice with tweeting of birds, what would be different? the meaning I had given before as thought, now would only be sounds.... tweets lol.
LOL…yes, exactly! It is simply AE of sound :)
The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to colour, sensation, smell, sound etc and infers that it is a body.
You got me on this one, a bit of a trick question. So AE of a car would be a thought, because that points color, sounds, etc?
The AE of car is thought. Thought points to the colour (and shape) and labels it a car. Colour is AE of colour and not AE of a car.

The label ‘car’ is AE of thought and not AE of a car
Image labelled as ‘car’ is AE of colour and not AE of a car
Sound labelled as ‘car’ is AE of sound and not AE of a car
The thoughts ABOUT a car ie what it is, what shape it is, what it does, what it is made from etc are AE of thought and not AE of a car
So the AE of ‘car’ is thought.
Can you see this?

What is known is label + colour + sound + thoughts…but is a car actually known?


Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?


(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?


(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:26 pm

Hello Kay :)
Ill probably take a few days to answer this mirror exercise, actually I dont have any big mirrors, only in bathroom, and not a lot of space to walk. Let me know if this is OK.
Thank you! :)

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forgetmenot
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:16 am

Hi Zazen,

That is fine, but you don't need the mirror to do the walking part of the exercise.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:44 pm

Hello Kay :)
What exactly is it that is experiencing awareness? That points to two….experience and awareness.
Awareness is experiencing itself...
Where is the dividing line between experience and awareness?
There is none!
Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, see-er, and the seen?
Are these three separate
?
No...
If yes, can you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses?
No boundary to be found at all....
So the AE of ‘car’ is thought.
Can you see this?
Yes. Any word label like car or tree or cup, are AE of thought ('the map is not the territory'). They dont point directly to what IS, they point to a thought that labeled color, sound, etc into one thing: thought.
What is known is label + colour + sound + thoughts…but is a car actually known?
No.

---
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
No connection, only thoughts about it.
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
No
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
No
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’
No
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
No
Or are there only colours and shapes?
Only colors & shapes
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
No... only thoughts about it.
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations...
(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
No, only sensations
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Yes, just thoughts
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Just thoughts about it
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
No, only sensations.
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Sensations appear without location, and a image (or colors) with label as room.... but the label doesnt come in.... its just changing sensations as the colors (images) change

Thanks Kay, sorry for answering till now.... didnt have time to get to this. Thanks.

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:41 pm

Hi Z, I am without internet for a couple of days, once the problem has been rectified I will send an answer.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:25 pm

Hello Zazen,
What exactly is it that is experiencing awareness? That points to two….experience and awareness.
Awareness is experiencing itself...
And how would it do that? Experience would need to be outside of itself to experience itself. In other words, experience would have to become its own subject/object split…how would it split itself and still remain whole, complete and unseparated?
Where is the dividing line between experience and awareness?
There is none!
Yes, exactly. Where does what is known (ie colour, sound, smell, thought etc) end and the knowing of it begin? Where is the dividing line between the knowing and the known?
Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, see-er, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
No...
No…so what is it that is aware then? For something to be aware of something else means that there is a ‘me’ here and an objective world ‘out there’. If there is no division between seer, seen and seeing…then how can there be an awareness OF experience? There is an awareness AS experience. See the difference?

Let's look at this further. For this exercise you will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand. If you don’t have a ticking clock, then here is a link to a clock on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp7LvAhC3i0

Take in a deep breath to settle the dust and close your eyes.

Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE any thoughts and mental images about what seems to be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?


Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

Were you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
Were you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just AE of sound?

For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ (experience) of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (experience) of the sound and the sound (known) itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?

If yes, can you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses?
No boundary to be found at all....
Yes…so is there separation in any shape or form?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Sensations appear without location, and a image (or colors) with label as room.... but the label doesnt come in.... its just changing sensations as the colors (images) change
Are the colours and sensations actually changing? Without thought, how would this be known?

I would like you to think of something that seems to bring up fear or anxiety’.
If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘fear’?
Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:18 pm

Hi Kay!
And how would it do that? Experience would need to be outside of itself to experience itself. In other words, experience would have to become its own subject/object split…how would it split itself and still remain whole, complete and unseparated?
All I know is that theres experience and theres awareness of that experience, and theres no separation. Other than that, I cant really answer your comment/question, because I cant find any answer to it.
Yes, exactly. Where does what is known (ie colour, sound, smell, thought etc) end and the knowing of it begin? Where is the dividing line between the knowing and the known?
There isnt a line.... knowing and known apparently are separate, but when you look, theres no separation.
No…so what is it that is aware then? For something to be aware of something else means that there is a ‘me’ here and an objective world ‘out there’. If there is no division between seer, seen and seeing…then how can there be an awareness OF experience? There is an awareness AS experience. See the difference?
Yes, you probably word it better than me (remember that english is not my main languague, I always try to do my best to explain and respond to questions)...I was thinking this the other day, if theres no separation, then it must mean that awareness is being aware as experience, as a sensation, color, etc... awareing being a sensation, or thought, or sound...

---
1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
No
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
No
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
No
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
No
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
No
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?
Without going to thought, no...
Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?
No
Were you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
No...
Were you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just AE of sound?
No, its all one.... just sound.
For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ (experience) of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (experience) of the sound and the sound (known) itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?
No line, no division.... just knowingkwnown... just one
Yes…so is there separation in any shape or form?
Never, only when you go to thought....
Are the colours and sensations actually changing? Without thought, how would this be known?
Yes, youre right. Its not that they are changing.... just more colors/ sensations... or saying it more simple, just colors/sensations.... without thought, theres always just that/what is
I would like you to think of something that seems to bring up fear or anxiety’.
If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘fear’?
No, its just sensation...
Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?
No, fear would be a label/tought, and not actual AE....
Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
neutral, undefined sensation
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
None lol... both just sensations... but one would be tied to a emotion (yes, this is thought talking lol)...
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
None at all.... both just sensations lol....

--

Glad that we are talking about sensations now. Ive been having sensations (always seem to have when Im driving around and the mind delivers its load of memorys etc), that are labeled as fear. So for example I have a thought (memory) and tied to it comes fear (sensation)... I was reflecting that without the sensation/emotion, the thought would have no weight. But the sensation, in this case fear, seems to make it more REAL... its like the sensation itself carries a truth/story, or lets say that the sensation/fear gives the thought validity (seal of approval lol). So for example, thought comes in...still JUST a thought, but then sensation fear grips hard and the thought gains validity or credibility, like now the thought MUST be true, because theres a gripping sensation to it...

So that pondering took me to a conclusion that, how can a sensation think? It cant, not even the thought.... but both together make a hell of a story or truth of what might happen...

Hope that makes sense...

Thanks Kay :)

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:17 am

Hello Z!

Okay, so let's look closely at the idea of fear. Once we have done that, then we can go back to your other responses to my questions.
Glad that we are talking about sensations now. Ive been having sensations (always seem to have when Im driving around and the mind delivers its load of memorys etc), that are labeled as fear. So for example I have a thought (memory) and tied to it comes fear (sensation)... I was reflecting that without the sensation/emotion, the thought would have no weight. But the sensation, in this case fear, seems to make it more REAL... its like the sensation itself carries a truth/story, or lets say that the sensation/fear gives the thought validity (seal of approval lol). So for example, thought comes in...still JUST a thought, but then sensation fear grips hard and the thought gains validity or credibility, like now the thought MUST be true, because theres a gripping sensation to it...

So that pondering took me to a conclusion that, how can a sensation think? It cant, not even the thought.... but both together make a hell of a story or truth of what might happen...
When ‘fear’ appears, become aware of everything that is happening…ie bodily sensations, thoughts etc and then close the eyes and to the following:-

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word F E A R or the thought “I am “scared/fearful” as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead.

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?


2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or that it is fearful?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation - and remember to breathe normally – in and out through the nose. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of fear
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:59 pm

Hi Kay :)
Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Just letters...
Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?
No, its just a label
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?
No
2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or that it is fearful?
No
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
No, its just a sensation
Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?
No
3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
No
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.
No one...
4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation - and remember to breathe normally – in and out through the nose. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.
Understood, guess Ill practice this one live, when something, colors, images, thoughts arise and then the sensations of fear.
So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?
Im clear on this. What is appearing is just AE (What IS), labels, thoughts, colors, sensations.... in this case about 'fear'.... its in this order: colors (shapes, forms), thoughts (Thoughts of thoughts), then sensation (fear!)... all in a flash. So barely any time to sit with this carefully to LOOK like in the comfort of a room alone... but Ill give it a shot... this saturday I have a social event where this sensation fear might pop up.

Thanks Kay :)

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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:07 am

Hey Z,
So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?
Im clear on this. What is appearing is just AE (What IS), labels, thoughts, colors, sensations.... in this case about 'fear'.... its in this order: colors (shapes, forms), thoughts (Thoughts of thoughts), then sensation (fear!)... all in a flash. So barely any time to sit with this carefully to LOOK like in the comfort of a room alone... but Ill give it a shot... this saturday I have a social event where this sensation fear might pop up.
Great, I would like for you to do this and let me know how you go before we proceed with the rest of this exploration.


Once you have done the above, I would like you to do the following exercise to see if the thought and sensation go hand-in-hand. In other words, do thoughts evoke sensations.

1. Put aside 10-15 minutes and sit quietly with your eyes closed.
2. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘anxiety’ (or fear) - one that you can feel in the body but not too intense that it overwhelms you.
3. Then with eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation ‘anxiety’. You are looking to find if there is something that links the thought/story with the sensation labelled as ‘anxiety’.
4. If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt clearly again, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. You are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.
5. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.

Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:14 pm

Hi Kay! :)

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:23 pm

Hi Kay,
Ive responded to the first part of your previous post, and will get to the second part these days.
Thank you :)

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Zazen01
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby Zazen01 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:34 pm

Hi Kay! :)
Heres the answers after doing the last exercise....
Great, I would like for you to do this and let me know how you go before we proceed with the rest of this exploration.
Ive been trying to be more mindful of the sensation fear when it arises. This event that I went to, there was more than enough opportunity to practice. Tried to be aware of what was, but then caved in into just going with the flow, and had a drink or two... this has been a issue with me, as before I use to be a social drinker, lets say, but now I dont do it as much. In this case, the sensation (fear) was too much to just be with it, breathing, being aware of what was... I did do it here and there during the event, not all was lost lol, but like I said, socializing between 'men' normally is done with a drink in hand.... so eventually I had to cave in and had 2-3.... but overall I do see that this being aware of the sensation is a start in those situations.... dont know if this good enough response to continue with the rest of your comments.
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.
Session 1
Without going to thought, It seems to be no link, but, the sensation cant be there alone. Its like it’s a result of bringing up the thought story. So not really a link there, I say no. But it seems one is result of the other one.
Session 2
I changed the thought story and found that there’s no obvious link, but, one triggers the other one. Its like first theres a thought story, then the sensation kicks in. I didn’t find an actual link on this one, but it seems one is the result of the other one.
Session 3
I changed the thought story again, and found the same answer. Theres no obvious link, it only seems that the fear is a response of the thought story. So to give a final answer, I have to say no link. But thought says that the sensation cant be there alone, its needs something to be there, in this case a story to be fearful of. Makes sense?

Thans Kay :)

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forgetmenot
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Re: Not sure if I have crossed the gate

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:53 am

Hey Z,
Ive been trying to be more mindful of the sensation fear when it arises. This event that I went to, there was more than enough opportunity to practice. Tried to be aware of what was, but then caved in into just going with the flow, and had a drink or two... this has been a issue with me, as before I use to be a social drinker, lets say, but now I dont do it as much. In this case, the sensation (fear) was too much to just be with it, breathing, being aware of what was... I did do it here and there during the event, not all was lost lol, but like I said, socializing between 'men' normally is done with a drink in hand.... so eventually I had to cave in and had 2-3.... but overall I do see that this being aware of the sensation is a start in those situations.... dont know if this good enough response to continue with the rest of your comments.
The purpose of the exercise is for you to LOOK at what IS and begin to see that sensation is simply a sensation, no matter what thought labels it as. It is now your job to keep LOOKING until it becomes clear. In other words, you can’t just sit and ponder what we are exploring, you must practically apply the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work every day, day in and day out.

Go back to the ‘comparing sensation’ exercise and do that again as well. Apply what you are learning to LOOK at.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘fear’?
Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?


All the reasons why ‘you’ caved in to having a drink is simply a story. To what exactly does that story apply?
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.
I changed the thought story again, and found the same answer. Theres no obvious link, it only seems that the fear is a response of the thought story. So to give a final answer, I have to say no link. But thought says that the sensation cant be there alone, its needs something to be there, in this case a story to be fearful of. Makes sense?
Love the diligence to this exercise. Yes it only SEEMS that fear is a response. To whom or what does it matter that thoughts appear suggesting that the sensation and thought go hand in hand? Thought also suggests that fairies are real…does that make it so? Thought also suggested that the earth was flat and that there is an actual separate entity called Zazen…does that make it so?

Where does sensation or thought park itself waiting for a particular thought or thought story to appear? Is there a thought parking garage somewhere? If so…where? How does thought or sensation know that its cue to appear has happened and that they need to now present themselves to be seen and felt? Seen and felt by what exactly? Wouldn’t this make thought and sensation aware? Where would thought hide itself…waiting for a particular sensation to appear, so it knows to appear? I mean, even logically it doesn’t make sense!

But to cap this all off….what is the difference between thought and sensation, between colour and smell, between taste and sound?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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