Mopping up 123

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:52 pm

Hello Kay,

It has taken a while indeed to do the exercises a few times and find words. Not easy to find fitting words!
Where is this “I” that “knows of cloths or chair”? If thought appeared giving a new name like ‘zimilphat’...to the body, does that name arise from the body? Would you know what it was referring to?

There is no I that knows. The sentence would be more accurately like this: “It’s actually just the sensation of something known as concept of cloths or chair.” It’s information by thought story. No, such name wouldn’t come from the body. One wouldn’t know what it’s referring to.
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
What happened in the body when labelling with “I” happened and without the “I”?
The 2nd way feels truer. It’s more like the actual experience, just the action or sensation. Without labels there is just random thinking taking place between experiencing sensations, less structured, whereas the labelling structures thought.
So it seems that labelling affects the experience especially in the first exercise. By repeating the ‘I’ that does this or that one implies that there is an ‘I’ acting. It’s supporting the conventional assumption that there is a persona who does something. It feels tighter in the body also.
Whereas labelling the action taking place without ‘I’ is according to experience. It feels looser in the body also, less tight.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.
Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes they appear beside each other, on their own.
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
No there isn’t a link between sensation and sight. And thought labels colour as hand. Indeed it’s mental construct which links them.
Where does sensation end and the knowing of it begin?
It’s not possible to draw a dividing line. It’s the same. By sensing knowing takes place. If this doesn’t happen instantaneously then it’s a confusing and unsettling situation.
Please redo the exercise and then answer the following questions INDIVIDUALLY.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It refers to the thought story about a body.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The actual experience is a sensation here or there.
Yes, exactly. So where is this something that is feeling, sensing? I want you to find that which is doing that and describe it to me in precise detail and where it is located. Please don’t come back with an answer of ‘why should there be an experiencer of experience’ when you believe there is. I want you to LOOK and tell me where this experiencer is and where it can be found.
There is no experiencer to be found. It’s not possible to locate that. There is no belief that there’s an experiencer either. This was just referring to the conventional label of body, how it’s used in ordinary life.
Thought is not an entity that can plan anything. How is that known...that thought are plans and are sequential and ordered?
It's not known as sequential or ordered. It’s thought story triggered by whatever and which is taking place. Maybe connected with another thought story about some issue. Maybe just a simple shopping list appearing in mind. But rather random and not ordered.
There is no such thing as separation. How can separation occur as “soon as a thought gets in”?
Have you ever looked at thought? Really looked at it? Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell? Can you describe a thought?
What was meant was, that once a thought story starts about an experience then it’s no longer the actual experience but a different one of thought story. In that sense separation but that’s missleading. Probably a better description would be just change from one experience to another one.
No, thought doesn’t have a voice or image but the content of the story can have that. Or invoke a mental image. It’s not possible to describe a thought as such.
Can you find thought AND smell AND colour AND taste AND sensation AND sound? Where is the dividing line between smell and sensation? Between thought and sound? Between colour and taste?
Yes, there can be thought and smell and colour present at the same time. Or taste and sensation and sound. It can appear at the same time but the foreground of experience is occupied with just one of them. And the others linger in the background so to say. But maybe that’s not even possible. Maybe it’s changing so quickly that only one is actual present experience. Not sure really.
But no, there don’t seem to be a dividing line between them. Actually there is none. No link and no dividing line. Fascinating.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:11 am

Hi Amo,

Again...take your time and do the exercises thoroughly and several times before responding please.
Where is this “I” that “knows of cloths or chair”? If thought appeared giving a new name like ‘zimilphat’...to the body, does that name arise from the body? Would you know what it was referring to?
There is no I that knows. The sentence would be more accurately like this: “It’s actually just the sensation of something known as concept of cloths or chair.” It’s information by thought story. No, such name wouldn’t come from the body. One wouldn’t know what it’s referring to.
Lovely, yes. It is knowledge based on thought. There is nothing wrong with knowledge, however knowledge (ie thought) knows nothing about actual experience, which is direct and Known.
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
What happened in the body when labelling with “I” happened and without the “I”?
The 2nd way feels truer. It’s more like the actual experience, just the action or sensation. Without labels there is just random thinking taking place between experiencing sensations, less structured, whereas the labelling structures thought.
Lovely. So can you see that “I” isn’t a place where thoughts arise, as “I” is an arising thought itself? If the label/word “I” were to disappear completely….would that affect anything? Would life stop?
So it seems that labelling affects the experience especially in the first exercise. By repeating the ‘I’ that does this or that one implies that there is an ‘I’ acting. It’s supporting the conventional assumption that there is a persona who does something. It feels tighter in the body also.
Whereas labelling the action taking place without ‘I’ is according to experience. It feels looser in the body also, less tight.
Nice, Amo :) So the label “I”, when it arises, seems to go hand in hand with the ‘tightness in the body’, which thought then suggests is the “I” itself. Can you see this?
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
No there isn’t a link between sensation and sight. And thought labels colour as hand. Indeed it’s mental construct which links them.
Nice! Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
Where does sensation end and the knowing of it begin?
It’s not possible to draw a dividing line. It’s the same. By sensing knowing takes place. If this doesn’t happen instantaneously then it’s a confusing and unsettling situation.

Please redo the exercise and then answer the following questions INDIVIDUALLY.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
It refers to the thought story about a body.
Yes, lovely Amo…the WORD/LABEL ‘body’ is AE of thought and not AE of a body
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The actual experience is a sensation here or there.
The AE of the body = thought. There is no body. Thought points to sensation and labels it as ‘body’. Sensation labelled as ‘body’ is AE of sensation and not AE of body. Can you see this?

Does experience ie sensation in this case have a location? How is it known that sensation is "here or there"?
There is no such thing as separation. How can separation occur as “soon as a thought gets in”?
Have you ever looked at thought? Really looked at it? Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell? Can you describe a thought?
What was meant was, that once a thought story starts about an experience then it’s no longer the actual experience but a different one of thought story. In that sense separation but that’s missleading. Probably a better description would be just change from one experience to another one.
Without thought, how is it known that colour is different to smell and that smell is different to sound and that sound is different to thought and that thought is different to sensation?

No, thought doesn’t have a voice or image but the content of the story can have that. Or invoke a mental image. It’s not possible to describe a thought as such.
Can thought actually invoke a mental image? How does it do that?
You are still assuming that there is cause and effect….that one event is followed by another. This is not only the assumption of time but also of separation. There would need to be separate ‘things’ for one to cause something to another.

Maybe it would be good to revisit the following exercise to see if something causes something else. By looking to see if sight and sensation were correlated also showed that there is no cause and effect.

Let’s have a look and see if the thought and sensation go hand-in-hand. In other words, do thoughts evoke sensations.

1. Put aside 10-15 minutes and sit quietly with your eyes closed.
2. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘anxiety’ (or fear) - one that you can feel in the body but not too intense that it overwhelms you.
3. Then with eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation ‘anxiety’. You are looking to find if there is something that links the thought/story with the sensation labelled as ‘anxiety’.
4. If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt clearly again, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. You are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.
5. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.

Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.


Have a look and see if there are many different thoughts. Are thoughts different just because the content of the thought seems to point to different things? Are the content of thoughts different, or are they just the appearance of more thoughts?
Can you find thought AND smell AND colour AND taste AND sensation AND sound? Where is the dividing line between smell and sensation? Between thought and sound? Between colour and taste?
Yes, there can be thought and smell and colour present at the same time. Or taste and sensation and sound. It can appear at the same time but the foreground of experience is occupied with just one of them. And the others linger in the background so to say. But maybe that’s not even possible. Maybe it’s changing so quickly that only one is actual present experience. Not sure really.
The only reason there seems to be an “AND” there is because thought divides THIS/experience into 6 categories and then labels them as sound AND smell AND taste AND colour AND thought AND sensation. I want you to IGNORE ALL LABELS/THOUGHTS. Without labels and thoughts can differences be known?

What does ‘AND’ point to? Does it point to wholeness/seamlessness or separation?
But no, there don’t seem to be a dividing line between them. Actually there is none. No link and no dividing line. Fascinating.
Beautiful, Amo! Let’s look at this a little more with just using colour.

Sit in a chair somewhere quiet and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and start to notice just the ‘body’, the chair, floor, rugs, furniture and walls. Without thought, all there is, is colour which thought then labels as clothes, or body, chair, wall etc (we are only looking at colour for this exercise).

Now look carefully.
1. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘body’ and the colour labelled ‘chair’ be found?
2. Is there a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘chair’ and the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’?
3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’ and colour labelled ‘furniturel’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’ and the ‘furniture’ or is there just simply colour
3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug and furniture’ and the colour labelled ‘wall’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’, ‘furniture’ and the ‘wall’ or is there just simply colour?
What do you find?

Is there an actual dividing line between any of these “colourS” or are they just simply seamless colour which thought divides into ‘things’ and further divides in into many different colourS and labels them as pink, black, yellow, green etc?

Is there such a thing as “space” or “distance”?

Is there an actual body/you sitting in a chair, or all there is, is colour?


With love,
Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:09 pm

Hi Kay,

Again this occupied me some days. The rubber hand video was really interesting and easy understandable after the last exercise.
Lovely. So can you see that “I” isn’t a place where thoughts arise, as “I” is an arising thought itself? If the label/word “I” were to disappear completely….would that affect anything? Would life stop?
Yes, the ‘I’ is obviously an arising thought. Life wouldn’t stop without that label, it would probably be easier…
Nice, Amo :) So the label “I”, when it arises, seems to go hand in hand with the ‘tightness in the body’, which thought then suggests is the “I” itself. Can you see this?
Yes, the tightness which is unpleasant. It often appears just uninvited.
The AE of the body = thought. There is no body. Thought points to sensation and labels it as ‘body’. Sensation labelled as ‘body’ is AE of sensation and not AE of body. Can you see this?
Yes, I see this. It’s just so engrained to call it body or heartbeat or belly cramp but it comes down to just sensation.
Does experience ie sensation in this case have a location? How is it known that sensation is "here or there"?
It’s only because thought identifies it as here in the belly or there in the foot for example. Without thought one wouldn’t know.
Without thought, how is it known that colour is different to smell and that smell is different to sound and that sound is different to thought and that thought is different to sensation?
Without thought it would just be experience of some kind and it wouldn’t matter whether it’s sound or smell. Only by labelling it it becomes a different experience.
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.
Did it a couple of times. Not easy to evoke anxiety feeling. It’s rather a nervousness coming up, a tightening in the chest. There’s no link to be found between the story and the sensation of crampiness. The sensation of tightness comes up apart from thinking about a frightening story (these are not so easy to find). But in ordinary situations with judgmental thought stories coming up tightness arises. Again, no idea why and how. Unpleasant.
Yeah, the issue of cause and effect. Many years of training in seeing conditioned coproduction… so this is sort of engrained. There’s no link to be found between thought and sensation. But still the assumption is that there is some correlation between one and the other. After all, tightness arises after a certain thought. But can’t find it in actual experience. And actually, the tightness arises also out of nowhere, without a certain story.
Have a look and see if there are many different thoughts. Are thoughts different just because the content of the thought seems to point to different things?
Difficult to say. Thoughts seem different because they are about different things, so apparently yes, the content points to different things.
Are the content of thoughts different, or are they just the appearance of more thoughts?
Hmm. This is a riddle… But after sitting with this for a while, it seems it's just more thoughts and it doesn't matter about what content.
The only reason there seems to be an “AND” there is because thought divides THIS/experience into 6 categories and then labels them as sound AND smell AND taste AND colour AND thought AND sensation. I want you to IGNORE ALL LABELS/THOUGHTS. Without labels and thoughts can differences be known?
NO! Then there are no differences.
What does ‘AND’ point to? Does it point to wholeness/seamlessness or separation?
It points to wholeness and seamlessness very nicely.
1. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘body’ and the colour labelled ‘chair’ be found?
No line between the colours. It blurs one into the other.
2. Is there a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘chair’ and the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’?
No.
3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’ and colour labelled ‘furniturel’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’ and the ‘furniture’ or is there just simply colour
No dividing line, just colour.
4. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug and furniture’ and the colour labelled ‘wall’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’, ‘furniture’ and the ‘wall’ or is there just simply colour?
What do you find?
It’s just colour of different sort which thought stories and labels tell about.
Is there an actual dividing line between any of these “colourS” or are they just simply seamless colour which thought divides into ‘things’ and further divides in into many different colourS and labels them as pink, black, yellow, green etc?
Absolutely. Colour and colour which is labelled differently. But seamless.
Is there such a thing as “space” or “distance”?
Difficult. In colour and colour where there’s no dividing line there’s no space or distance either. It doesn’t make sense to assume space if all is just colour. It’s made up, a concept and so convincingly.
Is there an actual body/you sitting in a chair, or all there is, is colour?
Colour…

Greetings from a lovely summer night sitting on the terrace
Amo x

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:17 am

Hello Amo,

We have done quite a lot of exploring so far. I think it is now time for you to go back to the beginning of the thread and re-read the entire thread. This will remind you of what has already been looked at and help to remind you to implement/apply what we have LOOKED at so far into your daily life, every day, so that it become second nature. Please redo the exercises you feel a pull to do...but it would be beneficial to you to redo them all.

Once you have re-read your thread thoroughly and redone exercises...let me know how you went and what further insights you had.

Love, Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:36 pm

Hi Kay,

Thank you so much for all you’ve written and pointed to so far. I’ve started re-reading from the beginning. However, I’m on my way to London now where I’ll have intense work meetings next week. I might not be able to reply before the next weekend.

Love,
Amoghamati


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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:03 am

Hi Amo,

Thank you for letting me know. I was going to say, "have a restful time in London"..but going to intense meeting is not quite the vibe of restful lol!

I really look forward to hearing from you when you have read your thread, and to hear your thoughts once you have read it. We have done a lot of work together and you have come a long way.

With love,
Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:01 am

Hi Kay,

Just a brief hello to say that I’m so far a bit over half way through our thread. Currently revisiting thought and the difference of thought itself and content of though.
The trip to London was intense and longer than expected due to a plane cancelled. Now with heavy deadlines for funding applications before my holiday next week.
But I keep it up :-)

Love,
Amo


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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:50 am

Hello Amo,

Lovely to hear from you! I was only thinking about you today, wondering how you were going with your busyness and with rereading the thread. Thank you for the update and I am glad you are keeping with it.

Love, Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:58 pm

Hello Kay,

Sorry for the long silence. I’m on holiday in Gambia with patchy internet. I’ve now reread the whole thread and redone some of the exercises. Right now just being, laying seamless on the beach bed experiencing warmth and listening to sound from waves is pleasurable. Even though I’ve got me a lumbago a few days ago which I took as exercise as well. Sensations labeled as pain, yeah well, unpleasant. No big fuzz thanks to painkillers and a lovely husband.

What sticks as an ongoing issue to explore is the concept of cause and effect and the contradictions this holds in the ordinary world. though it’s not possible to see and know really any link, in practice there seem to be so many causes which bring about effect. Even basic ones like drinking too much will result in a headache or so. Or the painkillers taken make the back less painful. It’s even at the core of my job that we formulate a theory of change from where to derive suitable actions to improve a given situation. So, this is which still puzzles me though it’s clear in AE.

Love from Africa
Amoghamati


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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:42 am

Hello Amo,

Lovely to hear from you!
What sticks as an ongoing issue to explore is the concept of cause and effect and the contradictions this holds in the ordinary world. though it’s not possible to see and know really any link, in practice there seem to be so many causes which bring about effect. Even basic ones like drinking too much will result in a headache or so. Or the painkillers taken make the back less painful. It’s even at the core of my job that we formulate a theory of change from where to derive suitable actions to improve a given situation. So, this is which still puzzles me though it’s clear in AE.
Cause and effect are seeming movements, and all movements are of/as THIS (experience Itself). No thing, be it a seeming object or idea is anything but THIS. All abstractions in an abstract painting are the paint, but the paint does not become the abstractions. What SEEMS to happen, in what is termed as relative reality (ie the dream), is just a story within the dream. When you LOOK can you actually find anyone, be it character or something else who is actually affected by cause and effect; or affected by the seeming consequences brought about by the idea of cause and effect?

If I read between the lines of what you wrote...it's not that cause and effect are the issue. The issue is that you are affected by the seeming consequences of cause and effect and you would like those consequence to stop or change.

Have you looked for the one who needs any of it to be different? Can you find the separate self who has desires to what IS, to be different? And did you look to see if you could find the one who was "stuck" by the ongoing issue of cause and effect?

Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:58 am

Hello Amo,

As you have stopped responding to your thread, I am letting you know that I will no longer be continuing as a guide at LU. When, in the future, you wish to continue this investigation you will be doing it with a different guide.

I wish you the best.

Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:50 am

Dear Kay,

Thank you for your message.
I’m back from holiday and have been sitting with your last question. No actually, not anyone found who is struck. Not one who wants it differently.
Sensations of unpleasantness and bodily moving away from that. Noticing of much less thought stories around that anything should be different.

Im sorry that my replies have been patchy recently. Coming back has been a crazy jump into a huge workload with proposal deadlines. I thank you heartily for all your pointers and replies. It‘s been a helpful revisiting and looking deeper. All the time coming back to the AE of a situation makes it obvious that there isn’t any agent.

Feeling is that the process has come to a close anyway, more or less, so no wish to continue with another guide. Apparently there are some final questions which you still may or may not send. Whatever you think is appropriate it’s fine either way.

May you be happy and well.

Lots of love and gratitude
Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:29 pm

Hello Amo,

Actually there are still other areas that needed to be investigated, so that the whole gamut of what seemingly creates the idea of being a separate self, living in a world is seen through, because those areas come up all the time and create confusion and doubt.

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

And has anything changed?

And what hasn’t changed?

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Is seeking still going on?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?


Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:41 pm

Hi Kay,
Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?
Yes this is very obvious.
If so, how does it feel to realise this?
It feels light, good.
And has anything changed?
Something which seems different: When body tension is building up then now much less thinking comes along the lines "why is this" or "where does it come from again". More able to be with the sensation only, to feel what is and notice thought story but not going along with thought story and instead feeling sensation of the actual experience. Much more able to identify thought stories as going on in thinking just as a matter of fact. The random nature of thoughts is clear and that they are not "real".
And what hasn’t changed?
Live happens as before, sensations appear and disappear and thought stories as well. Live is good.
What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?
Doubt has been diminished. Only with hindsight it appears that there's been some residue doubt about the non-self. Not much but at some deep level apparently. It feels like that's gone now.
Is seeking still going on?
Hmm not sure. For the moment...
Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?
The area of volition is something interesting. After seeing that there is no perceivable link between one sensation and another the idea of cause and effect is some useful concept but not AE. And then there's wanting and rejecting, which can be sensed as AE by certain sensations. And is known by thought stories. This is something to pursue further, how volition occurs in AE. And to realise that reaction in a certain way is not mandatory.

Love,
Amoghamati

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:40 pm

Hello Amo,
Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?
Yes this is very obvious.
And how is this obvious? Can you recall when exactly it was that the realisation happened and how it felt?
And has anything changed?
Something which seems different: When body tension is building up then now much less thinking comes along the lines "why is this" or "where does it come from again". More able to be with the sensation only, to feel what is and notice thought story but not going along with thought story and instead feeling sensation of the actual experience. Much more able to identify thought stories as going on in thinking just as a matter of fact. The random nature of thoughts is clear and that they are not "real".
That is like a new intellectual understanding about something - about what's been noticed about AE...that isn't change, that is simply knowledge. So what has changed?
Is seeking still going on?
Hmm not sure. For the moment...
So is the seeking to find still happening...is it the same seeking that drove you to look for answers, that drove you to see through the separate self?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?
And then there's wanting and rejecting, which can be sensed as AE by certain sensations. And is known by thought stories. This is something to pursue further, how volition occurs in AE. And to realise that reaction in a certain way is not mandatory.
And how do sensations sense “wanting and rejecting” exactly?
Do the sensations themselves suggest in any way that they are wanting and/or rejecting?
Do the sensations themselves suggest in any way they know anything about wanting or rejecting?

How exactly do thoughts know about “wanting and rejecting”?
What are thoughts exactly?
And what is it exactly that is reacting?


Here is an exercise that helps look at volition.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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