Mopping up 123

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forgetmenot
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:08 pm

Hi Amo,
What does the label 'memory' point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation, or is it simply a thought?
Without thought, how is it known that the experience is linked to thoughts?
Memory is a thought. However, memory can also be quite visceral, then it can be felt in the body. But when it becomes known it's via thought. So without thoughts it's not possible to link memory to experience.
Yes...lovely. The AE of memory is thought.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is perception of form and color and then recognition of apple which is thought. Apple as concept can't be found in direct experience.
Form is just another word for shape, and shapes are nothing more than particular patterns of colour.
However, is an apple actually known?
No it's not. Only form and color. The encompassing concept of apple is thought.
Exactly....there are only thoughts about an apple...but no apple can be found in actual experience.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities, object and emotions into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:35 pm

Hi Kay,
Just break down daily activities, object and emotions into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.
I'm just having a glas of wine which my partner brought me to my desk to drag me of work and start the weekend.
So, yeah, taste of white wine, immediately the thought gets in, what a lovely taste, great it's Friday night. And the glass, shape and colours, cool feeling to hold the glass in hand. So yes, just sensation and thought thinking cool and nice shape. The smell is there too, very light. Sound from downstairs, music, thoughts thinking oh yes Patti Smith. Hearing sound.

Will carry on.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:46 am

Hi Amo....nice start to the exercise. Keep it up for a day or two to ensure that you get a good grasp of what AE is and noticing the thoughts about AE.

Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:35 pm

Hi Kay,

Over the day I often checked and noticed the actual experience and the thoughts about it. I was working in the garden which was a nice setting for looking. The smell and colors of flowers, feeling of earth on my hands, birds singing. And thinking going on, story telling about the experience and about other issues.
Also noticing sensations in the body and being with it. The habitual reaction is to assess and judge. Pleasant or unpleasant, what are the reasons for that, etc. But this is thinking whereas the sensation is the actual experience.

Warmly,
Amo


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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:18 am

Hello Amo...I would like for you to break activities and emotions down, like the example provided, so I can see that you are becoming clear about what AE is and noticing the thoughts about AE.

Many thanks
Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:07 am

Hi Kay,

I’m having breakfast and eating a sweet raisin bread roll. There is color and shape which is AE and the though yellowish bread roll. The taste is there as AE and I think sweet and tasty. The sensation of chewing, the thought how strange to concentrate on chewing. The feeling of the chewed mass in my mouth. And the thought it’s sticking to my teeth. And the sound it makes when chewing as AE. Then the thought about it that it makes a noise. and other sounds too, and I notice birds, planes, children.

Amo


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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:08 pm

Hey Amo,

So what I suggest is that you keep breaking down activities, objects and emotions into AE for a few days more, so as to get into the practice of doing so. This will help you greatly during this exploration and after.

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:58 pm

Hi Kay,
"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
Any further thoughts about a cup or anything are thoughts and not actual experience.
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Yes this is obvious.
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
I keep noticing thoughts coming up about experience. Striking how quickly from the actual labelling thinking continues to proliferate. The strain in my legs while doing a Yoga posture isn't just strain but the story immediately sets in. I notice the experience and story is likely to start. Likewise in any other experience of noticing something. Thought picks up and tells a story which carries much further than the initial experience or image. Another example is watching roses in the garden, observing their color and smell, noticing lice and thoughts are going off how to get rid of them. Etc.
The difference isn't unfamiliar to me after years of mindfulness training.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:22 am

Hello Amo,
I keep noticing thoughts coming up about experience. Striking how quickly from the actual labelling thinking continues to proliferate.
Great! Yes…thoughts are like an avalanche!
The strain in my legs while doing a Yoga posture isn't just strain but the story immediately sets in.
What is the AE of “the strain in my legs”?
I notice the experience and story is likely to start. Likewise in any other experience of noticing something. Thought picks up and tells a story which carries much further than the initial experience or image.
Great observation.
Another example is watching roses in the garden, observing their color and smell, noticing lice and thoughts are going off how to get rid of them. Etc.
The difference isn't unfamiliar to me after years of mindfulness training.
What is the AE of ‘roses’?

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with. Notice how the sports commentator is like the 'inner narrator' labelled 'my thoughts'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:11 pm

Hi Kay,
What is the AE of “the strain in my legs”?
It's a sensation which I label as strain or tension. Quickly thought takes it up and thinks about it. Like "hm it's getting painful" or "hm I get further bend now".
What is the AE of ‘roses’?
It's color and smell and sensation if I touch it.
Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Without sound it's just an observation of people running around.
With sound on I really have to concentrate to understand what he's saying. I'm not familiar with watching football in English. So at first I was curios. Then I was struck by the banalities he was saying. I didn't find it interesting. Only to hear the names of the the goalies but that is also written on the shirts.
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
No not necessary.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No not necessary.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:59 am

Hello Amo,
What is the AE of “the strain in my legs”?
It's a sensation which I label as strain or tension. Quickly thought takes it up and thinks about it. Like "hm it's getting painful" or "hm I get further bend now".
Where exactly is this “I” that is labelling? Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?
What is the AE of ‘roses’?
It's color and smell and sensation if I touch it.
So there is an assumption that sensation comes from a you touching it…let’s investigate that assumption. Not only does this assumption point to a subject/object split, but it also points to cause and effect…which the belief in time.

Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear about desk or hand and put them aside ie ignore them.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and desk? Or is there simply the AE of sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Without sound it's just an observation of people running around.
How is it known that they are “people running around”? What is the actual experience of what is happening/appearing?
With sound on I really have to concentrate to understand what he's saying. I'm not familiar with watching football in English. So at first I was curios. Then I was struck by the banalities he was saying. I didn't find it interesting. Only to hear the names of the the goalies but that is also written on the shirts.
Okay, so find a game in your language and redo the exercise, so you get to see what the objective of this exercise is about.
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
No not necessary.
Exactly. Whatever was happening was happening. It didn’t need the commentator to tell a story about it. The same applies for the story called ‘Amo’s life story”. Without the commentator…life goes on, no matter what.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No not necessary.
So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Amo’ and ‘her life’?

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:15 pm

Hello Kay,
Where exactly is this “I” that is labelling? Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing
There is no spot to point to. It’s a vague feeling as if identifying with thought. I know it’s habit but not real.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and desk? Or is there simply the AE of sensation.
There is only sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
No, it’s just sensation. The “other thing” is only thought.
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?
The experience itself is just sensation. No I or hand.
Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
It’s the same. It’s a tingling vibrating sensation. Only by thought anything else comes in. Like even the interpretation tingling or vibrating is thought.
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?
No feeler there.
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Exactly. It’s a concept. And a habit.
How is it known that they are “people running around”? What is the actual experience of what is happening/appearing?
People is thought. The actual experience is just coloured spots moving.
Okay, so find a game in your language and redo the exercise, so you get to see what the objective of this exercise is about.
I did and it was more straightforward. The commentary is like the thoughts commenting experience all the time. While sound is off it’s more like actual experience without interpretation. The difference is that the commentary changes perception. The experience is different because it taints the way the setting or game is perceived. Perception is different and thought thinks differently than without commentator. It’s very difficult to stay with the image or actual experience. And the interpretation is influenced. Even the sensation is influenced.
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No not necessary.
So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Amo’ and ‘her life’?
Yes it’s very obvious. But still the narrator carries on… that comfy but misleading habit. I know it’s an addition and not necessary but still it pops up telling stories.

Warmly,
Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:54 am

Hi Amo,
Where exactly is this “I” that is labelling? Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?
There is no spot to point to. It’s a vague feeling as if identifying with thought. I know it’s habit but not real.
Is it an actual 'body' sensation? If not then it is simply an idea…a thought.

What exactly is it that has habits?
What is the AE of ‘habits’?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Exactly. It’s a concept. And a habit.
Yes, it is a concept. There is no one and no thing that is actually feeling. The knowing of the sensation (which is known) are one and the same…there is no separation.

There would have to be an “I” for something to have habits. Where exactly is this “I” and where is it located?
How is it known that they are “people running around”? What is the actual experience of what is happening/appearing?
People is thought. The actual experience is just coloured spots moving.
Lovely, yes.
Okay, so find a game in your language and redo the exercise, so you get to see what the objective of this exercise is about.
I did and it was more straightforward. The commentary is like the thoughts commenting experience all the time. While sound is off it’s more like actual experience without interpretation. The difference is that the commentary changes perception. The experience is different because it taints the way the setting or game is perceived. Perception is different and thought thinks differently than without commentator. It’s very difficult to stay with the image or actual experience. And the interpretation is influenced. Even the sensation is influenced.
Lovely observations, Amo. Without thought (the commentator), what is happening is neutral. It is only thought commentary that seems to influence perception. And if you listen carefully to the commentary, they are about a past or about a future.

What do you mean when you say "even the sensation is influenced"?
So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Amo’ and ‘her life’?
Yes it’s very obvious. But still the narrator carries on… that comfy but misleading habit. I know it’s an addition and not necessary but still it pops up telling stories.
Yes…and there is no choice in what thoughts or thought stories appear or when. Let’s take a closer look at the nature of thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Kay
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:29 pm

Hi Kay,
What exactly is it that has habits?
What is the AE of ‘habits’?
No one has them. Habits are what developed together with this body-mind which generates sensations. It's another concept because there is no actual experience of habits. It takes thoughts and memory to notice them.
There would have to be an “I” for something to have habits. Where exactly is this “I” and where is it located?
There is no I. Can't habit just be a pattern linked to the body-mind? No need for an owner if by repeated practice a pattern evolves. But again, in AE this is not perceivable.
What do you mean when you say "even the sensation is influenced"?
The commentary directs my attention to areas which would go unnoticed otherwise. It's distracting also.

So much for now. I need more time for the thought experiment to do it thoroughly. And will have a guest tonight so I'd better cook dinner now.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:58 pm

Hi Amo....I will wait until you have done the thought exercise before I respond.

Kay
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