Mopping up 123

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Amo
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Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Fri May 31, 2019 1:56 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The human default notion that there must be something like a self, our basic delusion as humans.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've done direct pointing some years ago and seen through self. Now before going further with the fetters inquiry my guide Karunamati recommended that I mop up any left notions of the first 3 fetters. To be certain that there aren't any. I've been recommended to ask for Kay.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To realise the fact of no-self on deepest visceral levels with no left overs of self delusion. Before going further with the inquiry it seems advisable to check thoroughly whether all notions of self belief are really gone. I think they are gone but I'm happy to be questioned and checked on it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Buddhist, I have done the direct pointing with a friend in 2015/16. Started recently to go further with the inquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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forgetmenot
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Fri May 31, 2019 2:10 pm

Hi Amo,

You asked for me to be your guide. I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Fri May 31, 2019 2:39 pm

Hi Kay,

Thank you for being my guide. I'm going to read the docs but can't do right now. I'm about to leave for a meditation weekend and will be back Sunday afternoon.
I'll get it touch again when I'm done reading.

Warm regards from spring Germany
Amoghamati

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Fri May 31, 2019 11:20 pm

Hello Amo,

Thank you for letting me know.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:36 pm

Hi Kay,

I’ve read the disclaimer and all the links.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:13 am

Hi Amo,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Hi Kay,
How will life change?
I don’t expect life to change in any particular way. Life is change anyway.
How will you change?
I don’t know. I’m changing all the time.
What will be different?
I don’t know. Maybe that seeing through separate self becomes more engrained.
What is missing?
I don’t know whether anything is missing.

I'm not sure I'm using the quote function correctly.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:28 am

Hello Amo,
I'm not sure I'm using the quote function correctly.
Please review this link on how to use the quote function.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
How will life change?
I don’t expect life to change in any particular way. Life is change anyway.
Yes, life is perpetual change, however, why are you on this path if you don’t have any expectations on how you think life will change?
How will you change?
I don’t know. I’m changing all the time.
There is no “I” to be changing all the time. And this question needs to be look at carefully so that you and I become aware of your expectations on what you think realising ‘no self’ will give you.
Expectations are a hindrance to this exploration, so please think on this questions and provide some deeper insights please.

What will be different?
I don’t know. Maybe that seeing through separate self becomes more engrained.
If you don’t know then why are you wanting to see/realise that there is no separate self?
What is missing?
I don’t know whether anything is missing.
So you accept life exactly as it is all the time and have no expectations on outcomes or how life should be or how you should interact with life?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:12 pm

Hi Kay,

Thank you for the tip about the quote. That's helpful. Here my replies:
How will life change?
I don’t expect life to change in any particular way. Life is change anyway.
Yes, life is perpetual change, however, why are you on this path if you don’t have any expectations on how you think life will change?
I’m on a spiritual path anyway and the ultimate goal is enlightenment. Thoroughly seeing through the illusion of a separate self is a stepping stone in this. So life will change in as much as my vision may become less obstructed. But I don’t expect any particular changes apart from a clearer view of reality.
How will you change?
I don’t know. I’m changing all the time.
There is no “I” to be changing all the time. And this question needs to be look at carefully so that you and I become aware of your expectations on what you think realising ‘no self’ will give you.
Expectations are a hindrance to this exploration, so please think on this questions and provide some deeper insights please.
Sure, there is no self and no I changing. But just life and mind and body which change all the time. So as I said above my vision may become less obstructed. Which results in a clearer view of reality.
What will be different?
I don’t know. Maybe that seeing through separate self becomes more engrained.
If you don’t know then why are you wanting to see/realise that there is no separate self?
It’s obvious that there is no separate self. That has become clear to me some years ago. By becoming more engrained I mean that the insight drops at a deeper level so that also greed and aversion become easier to grasp. I still experience pride and the wish to please, apart from general desire and aversion despite knowing that there is no separate self. However, I don’t expect to resolve this all during the dialogue. So what might be different is that it may become more straight forward to tackle these later on.
What is missing?
I don’t know whether anything is missing.
So you accept life exactly as it is all the time and have no expectations on outcomes or how life should be or how you should interact with life?
I’m pretty balanced and fortunate to live a happy live. With loads of work I love and friends and family. Of course not everything which comes my way is pleasurable. Nevertheless I try to relate and accommodate and react with compassion. Life in the big picture is pretty awesome. I’m not missing anything particular apart from the tangible insights maybe.

Warmly, Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:22 am

Hello Amo,

Thank you for your responses. It give me some information on what you are looking for/expecting, so I know what to keep an eye out for as we move through this exploration.

As stated in my first post, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:42 pm

Hi Kay,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
It’s the singing of birds outside in the garden.

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:31 am

Hey Amo,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
It’s the singing of birds outside in the garden.
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was the 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:13 pm

Hi Kay,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was the 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?
Without thought it's not known that it's birds singing. Only by memory and experience which is linked to thoughts is it known.

The actual experience is background sound in my body and from time to time another distinguishable sound.

Amo

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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:51 am

Hello Amo,

Could you please answer questions asked individually.
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was the 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?
Without thought it's not known that it's birds singing. Only by memory and experience which is linked to thoughts is it known.
What does the label 'memory' point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation, or is it simply a thought?
Without thought, how is it known that the experience is linked to thoughts?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing 'singing of birds outside in the garden'?
The actual experience is background sound in my body and from time to time another distinguishable sound.
The AE is sound. "Background sound in my body" is AE of thought and has nothing to do with AE of sound.


The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Amo
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Re: Mopping up 123

Postby Amo » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:41 am

Hi Kay,

Thank you for the nice apple exercise.
What does the label 'memory' point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation, or is it simply a thought?
Without thought, how is it known that the experience is linked to thoughts?
Memory is a thought. However, memory can also be quite visceral, then it can be felt in the body. But when it becomes known it's via thought. So without thoughts it's not possible to link memory to experience.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
There is perception of form and color and then recognition of apple which is thought. Apple as concept can't be found in direct experience.
However, is an apple actually known?
No it's not. Only form and color. The encompassing concept of apple is thought.

Amo


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