calloffthesearch

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:08 pm

Hi Pop,

thank you for this info - totally fine.

I did not answer immediately because it is so precious to go into the pointings and I did not want to answer from the head.

There is more and more loosening or opening happening.

Perception happens before "I" is there. "I" comes later with thought process. It becomes clearer that only thought is I vice versa. It is a story that "believes" and refers to itself - but in reality it is just single thoughts one after the other ... without own creative power or life.

So I is not needed for being.

... continuing to cook myself (whatever that is) in that.

Thank you very much

and have a good trip

Lots of Love

Hendrik

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:01 pm

Dear Pop,

thank you for guiding.

Could it be that simple to just stop identifying with all the feelings that give the impression to be a person - so not to identify with the whole mechanism that is called "Hendrik"?
To give a mechanism a name seems equal to give a name to a car...

So let the mechanism think (it seems that it has no own will to do that...) whatever comes up or even thinking of being Hendrik - and this is just seen?
Even that the person thinks is a thought... It does not think on it´s own.

Actually I (?) do not know then what I am... all that thinking is seen.

What is left is that what is seing.

The word "I" then does not make sense when the whole thing is not identified with.

Could it be that simple? And if there is a doubt that I could fool myself - even that is just another thought?

Love

Hendrik

PS: ... found inspiring lines by Greg Goode, especially the 1st one:
"The person does not experience; the person is experienced.
The person is never free. As awareness, we are never bound."

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:26 pm

Hi Hendrik


Yes you are on track.
You see that the "I" is a thought and that thoughts just happen.

So looking from this vantage point what remains?
So i'm not necessarily looking for a conceptual answer (although you will need to use language to answer!) but rather I'm trying to get you to look directly at what is there when you drop the "I" thought.

Is there a gap between experienced and experiencer?
Is there still an experiencer when the i-thought is seen through?

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:59 pm

Hi Pop,

it still takes time to get into that, I (?) experience still identification with thoughts.

But when direct experiencing is "on" and not being overrun by identification... ok, even this is a thought. So: can direct experience ever be overrun by thought? I cannot feel that it could. Funny.

To your questions:
So looking from this vantage point what remains?
...what is there when you drop the "I" thought.
There is experiencing, things are happening, typing on the keyboard is heard and felt.
The space between my body and the screen and the wall behind it seems not real. It feels as if there was no real spatial depth.


Is there a gap between experienced and experiencer?
I can feel no gap. I can feel no specific "place" where experience happens. Ok, it is here, but the "here" is not really graspable as being a place that begins here and ends there.

Is there still an experiencer when the i-thought is seen through?
Actually in the short moments when I is seen through there is no experiencer. If there was it would be a rising/thoughtform.

Love

Hendrik

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:17 pm

... ok, I pressed ctr. V and some other button to insert text and the post was done... unfinished:


So again to your 1st Question "what remains...":

There is a wish to say: "Nothing remains" - but that would not be true.
There is this ungraspable "something" that seems to have no attributes.

What remains is:

- feelings
- sounds, sight, etc
- thoughts

- presence/silence

... a funny feeling that I am not this "process" labeled Hendrik...

Love, once again

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:33 pm

Hi Hendrik

There is a wish to say: "Nothing remains" - but that would not be true.
There is this ungraspable "something" that seems to have no attributes.

Yes! This is not an nihilistic path. There is aliveness that will not disappear (feelings, thoughts etc)


- presence/silence. .. a funny feeling that I am not this "process" labelled Hendrik...

Yes....so when you say "Hendrik", what is this pointing to?

What comes up when I say—there is no separate entity self in real
life at all?


Love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:53 pm

Hi Pop,
What comes up when I say—there is no separate entity self in real
life at all?
Spontanously: Love + feeling of space "within".
Yes....so when you say "Hendrik", what is this pointing to?
It is a bundle of appearances.
Here I go deeper and tell tomorrow...

Love + gratitude

Hendrik

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:36 am

Hi Pop,

again:
Yes....so when you say "Hendrik", what is this pointing to?
The name „Hendrik“ points to sensations.

- Pressure in the head
- Feeling air in the nose
- Warmth in the hands
- Presence in the legs

With closed eyes just by feeling there are different sensations, but there are no hands, nose etc. If I did not know, just by feeling alone: there are different sensations and that´s it. The feeling „from within“ is a feeling that is felt, and there is no difference between sensations showing a within and those that seem to show an outside.
The body is felt but the feeling does not „show“ the form of a body. If I did not know how a body looks like, the feeling would not show ist.

Apart from that: The body is a thing with needs. These needs are felt, they are sensations as well. A pressure alone does not know to go to a toilet.

With the word „Hendrik“ feelings in the middle of the chest, throat and belly and even toes resonate. These feelings don´t show a Hendrik.
The feelings get stronger with open eyes. What I see are arms, legs etc – if I did not know what that was, seeing alone would not give evidence to a separate body. There were just structures.

„Hendrik“ is pointing to the I-thought. It resonates in the middle of the chest. This is a feeling/sensation – that in itself does not show a Hendrik.

Ok – so: Hendrik is a thought. All seemingly connected charactrer traits or properties are thoughts themselves. These thoughts seem to be connected to sensations. But the thoughts can stand on their own and the sensations too – there is no compelling connection.
What comes up when I say—there is no separate entity self in real
life at all?
Behind the name there is an openness, there is love.

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:53 am

Hi Hendrik!

But the thoughts can stand on their own and the sensations too – there is no compelling connection.
This is really good



Behind the name there is an openness,
Yes , now when you "look" at that openness is there anything personal?
It is an intimate experience, sure, but without the "me" who are you?
Simply LOOK into that openness...is there an "I" there in control?
Or is there not?

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Hi Pop,
Yes , now when you "look" at that openness is there anything personal?
Actually, in that openness I (?) cannot see anything personal. This openness is.

It is an intimate experience, sure, but without the "me" who are you?
I(?) don´t really know. I am this openness because I cannot devide myself from that. But I cannot say that I am a specific structure.
There is still a feeling resonating with this „I“. Identification is a process, so it is a sensation that is seen. Seeing this it is easier to stay open.
Easier for whom? There is no one there in a way.
There are sensations which are saying they belong to or constitute a „me“ - but when looked at each of them they stand on their own. They seem to point to a person but they don´t. It is all thought.
Even the joy of contacting something deeper is seen – as a sensation. Joy without a „me“.

I am not quite sure „who“ I am – it is now more difficult to be the „me“.
Simply LOOK into that openness...is there an "I" there in control?
That is quite special: There are structures seeming to construct a believe in a „me“, that „consists“ of houghts – but they are all passive.
Neither the seeming constructing thoughts nor the „me“ has an own will. They in a way just hang there.
Nobody is in control – weird.
Or is there not?
I cannot find someone in control. It is like street signs with messages – but no one in control. Like bubbles in a shake.
I cannot find a „shaker“ 
If there was, it was that openness. But that does not „shake“.

... sitting in a train right now it is funny to look at other human animals. It seems as if there is nobody "in" them...
... and I cannot really find someone in my(?) body.

Love
Hendrik

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:27 pm

... and what, if there was no real "otherness"...

Love
Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:53 pm

Hi!

Identification is a process, so it is a sensation that is seen.

Who sees?

Seeing this it is easier to stay open. Easier for whom? There is no one there in a way.

In a way? What do you mean? Is there or isn't there?


There are sensations which are saying they belong to or constitute a „me“

Ok this is interesting. Look here. Do sensations say anything? What creates the illusion of "me"? Is it really sensation?
(you go on and explain this as thought but really see this in your direct experience and don't rely on the theory, don't know it abstractly, really see it, feel the sensation, be the sensation in the moment and see how it does not think or create a "me")


it is now more difficult to be the „me“.

You never were or will be the "me" so just let go of the difficulty. let go of the steering wheel.
The correct action or thought still arises. It has always been like this , you just add stress by adding something that isn't there.
Can you see this in real time?



Neither the seeming constructing thoughts nor the „me“ has an own will.

Try this: Can you find a single thought when you look for it in your direct experience?


... and what, if there was no real "otherness"...

Don't worry about these thoughts. It would be the same as it is now!
Nothing changes , you see the confusion and stop adding to experience.


Thanks for looking Hendrik

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:27 pm

Hi Pop,

thank you for your clarifying replies.

Days were very demanding + I was a little ill, now it´s better.

So:
Who sees?
Seeing sees – it happens, I cannot find a seer.

I
n a way? What do you mean? Is there or isn't there?
Ok, there is no one.
Ok this is interesting. Look here. Do sensations say anything? What creates the illusion of "me"? Is it really sensation?
(…really see it, feel the sensation, be the sensation in the moment and see how it does not think or create a "me")
Now, sensation creates no illusion, it´s just sensation. It is thought that „tells“ – but thought cannot speak. It´s passive.
You never were or will be the "me" so just let go of the difficulty. let go of the steering wheel.
The correct action or thought still arises. It has always been like this , you just add stress by adding something that isn't there.
Can you see this in real time?
I can see this – and „forget“ … The steering wheel: ok, fear. Everytime experienced, I question what shell be protected or what is behind fear? There is nothing.

Try this: Can you find a single thought when you look for it in your direct experience?
No – I cannot. It is not possible. It first begins to shimmer like it would exist, then there is transparency and space.

When I sit still it is easier to see...

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:59 pm

Hi Hendrik,

there is transparency and space

Is this ever not present?
Where is "I" / "me" in this?

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:20 pm

Dear Pop,

space is always present, and: there is no "I" or "me" in it.

Further:
When I search for an I there is an area in the middle of the chest - but even that has no "I".

The "one" who has the wish to overcome the "I" is something without personal properties. There is only a thought of that wish. But no one having that wish.

This is seen by what? That what sees has no characteristics.

Love

Hendrik


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