calloffthesearch

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Wed May 22, 2019 7:25 pm

Hendrick hi!


Good to hear from you.

the inquiring in the "I"/"me" is effective: system rebels with heart palpitations and (little) fear of dying. Ok, for the body I took some minerals and will reduce stress a bit... but it is no bodily problem - it seemes as if the personality is transforming..

Can a personality die?




The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.

Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.

Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.

Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

With love as always

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Wed May 22, 2019 9:09 pm

Dear Pop,

thank you for the excercise, it went deep:
Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?
The imagining and experiencing does in a way differ and in a way it ist he same:

- Sight: „seeing“ the spoon in imagination is „inside“; seeing with the eyes seemes outside, still it happens „inside“. The seeing consciousness is the same.

- Touch: ok, in imagination there is no sensroy pressure on the hand of a spoon, the imagination seems to differ from the real touch – still, the real touch with closed eyes is just a feeling of little pressure on the skin, so just concentrating on touch there could be anything other than a spoon. The sensing of the pressure does not make the spoon „real“. It looks more real when sight is added.
- Touch 2nd trial: with hightened concentration on the felt sensation of the imagined spoon, the difference between imagined and experienced spoon shrinks.
Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?
It is an „multi sensual“ image/perception:

- Feeling: there are feelings trying to tell that there is a separate body. These are feelings of pressure, pulsation, warmth – but no proof of a body by just feeling.
- Smell: there is a familiar structure – but no body is there.
- Taste: there is a sensation – but is it a person?
- Breathing: is a pressure-like feeling in the torso – is there a torso? Pressure in place where solar plexus is supposed to be… just pressure, is there a solar plexus?. Throat: pressure is felt - is there a throat? Feeling does not show.
- All sensations and especially seeing the body „acting“ together give the impression of a seperate body/self.
- When I go through the senses to find a self, it gives the impression that all sensual perceptions in a way are the same: it is something to be felt – seeing is a bit different with all the colours – but in the end it happens „inside“, well at least not outside.

So there are images and sensations – but I cannot find an entity.

If I close the eyes, there is a feeling/experiencing of a character – but this feeling or thoughtform is seen.
Same with thinking or feeling emotions – both are seen as well.

The experiences do not dissolve or change – but they are seen. And they by themselves do not constitute a separat self. It is a bundle of perceptions. Even the seeming „self“ in the forehead is a sensation that is felt/seen. Forehead?

While deepening into this there is a slight „breeze“ of freedom in the field. Another sensation that is felt. No me.

There is the belief that experiences have to change or dissolve in realising that there is no self – but the impressions (pressures etc…) don´t leave.

But they cannot be „me“.

After some time I added the orange excercise to deepen that.


There is a growing conviction that there cannot be a separate self, still the habit seemes to be there of feeling it.
This „growing“ implies time. I cannot feel time, just sensations.

Or space: Listening how my wife types in a computer on the other side of the room… there is no distance to „me“; it happens in the same „place“ as all the other sensations happen. My wife?


When I really take all that to heart, there is no space, just imagined space – and no body imagining it.
There are no beings or objects, just sensations… there cannot be me, just a „being“ in a way… I cannot not know what this being is, it has no structures.
It is in a way aliveness (whatever that is), that´s it.
(Aliveness is a label)

There is no special feeling/perception accompanying this. Maybe a slight feeling of disorientation and well-being.

Gratitude and Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Thu May 23, 2019 8:58 pm

Hey Hendrik!

Don't over think this ;)
- Sight: „seeing“ the spoon in imagination is „inside“; seeing with the eyes seemes outside, still it happens „inside“. The seeing consciousness is the same.

Yes but where is the *actual* spoon? This isn't mystic...there is a spoon...in one place only.


Ok you can sense the environment. You can sense aliveness. If you stop thinking, aliveness is still there. Being-ness is still there. That is direct experience. Not theory
Stay with bare observation and what is *actually* seen.
Really try to describe what that false sense of self is.
Is it false?
Does it seem true?
enter a present moment investigation. you are the scientist. Verify whatever you can by observation alone.

There is a growing conviction that there cannot be a separate self...


That is not direct experience talking.



With heart and kindness

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sat May 25, 2019 8:36 am

Dear Pop,

thank you for your clear guidance.

There was too much thinking involved, maybe inspired by having read a book before that invites to the view that in the end there is only consciousness... and so not even the spoon can be proved as "real".

I am very happy to get clear statements.

I get into that again.

Acceptance and Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sat May 25, 2019 10:46 am

Hi Hendrik


Good to hear from you.
Yes just keep looking from direct experience.
Don't worry when this is forgotten. This is normal.

I'll keep adding new pointers to move the investigation along but feel free to keep using the other pointers too as you see fit and let me know how it is going.

Try to keep an open mind. How do you choose which thoughts come into existence?
And where do thoughts come from?
Then start looking at the rest of the illusion of self - emotions and sensations in the body.
Did you bring them into existence?
What about the story of "you", is it real?


Go well

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sun May 26, 2019 3:26 pm

Dear Pop,

Thoughts:
I do not choose which thoughts come into existence, they just come. So there is no choosing. The wish to choose other thoughts than those perceived is itself thought.

I cannot sense where thoughts come from, they suddenly arise. Sometimes it seems that first there is an emotion which then finds its way into wording. But still both are thought forms being seen.

Emotions:
Emotions and sensations in the body:

- This feeling that constitutes a person is felt and seen. I did not bring that into existence but I can feel/see it.
- The other emotions and feelings I did not bring into existence as well, I just perceive them.
- This feeling of „I“ I did not bring into existence as well. When I feel into it there seems to begin an openness without
form.


Story:
The story of „me“ is a story. It is a remembrance consisting of several thought forms like time, sequence and the thought/feeling of this „me“. This me consists of remembrances, which are thoughts and all these thoughts can be seen. So there is no inherent truth in story.

The only thing that makes the story real is the feeling that it is real. But this feeling itself is not the one who feels the feeling.

There is the feeling, that I don´t reach deep enough, even thouhg that itself is a feeling/rising.

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sun May 26, 2019 6:10 pm

Hello Hendrick


Once again thank you.
It is a pleasure to guide you.

Lovely answers.

- This feeling that constitutes a person is felt and seen. I did not bring that into existence but I can feel/see it.

Look at this feeling in direct experience. What is it?


The only thing that makes the story real is the feeling that it is real. But this feeling itself is not the one who feels the feeling.

Who feels this feeling?


There is the feeling, that I don´t reach deep enough, even though that itself is a feeling/rising

This is a thought, no?


Love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Tue May 28, 2019 1:19 pm

Dear Pop,

thank you for your patient guiding. It is so easy to get lost in thoughs…

Ok, now going direct:
The feeling that seemes to constitute „me“ in direct experience:
There is not just one feeling but many different „tones“ of feelings. All are passive – so: no me.
In the end this „feeling“ is a presence – a kind of center from wich perception seems to happen; but that what perceives is outside of that center. So there cannot really be a center.

And there are thoughts wich believe in a person. But they are passive.

Who feels the feeling?
„Me“ seems to feel the feeling – but I cannot find someone in me. When everything I see is not me then I cannot find a „who“.
Still this is logic – so a thought.


I cook myself in your questions several times during the day and longer in the evening, still it seems that the answers come from thinking and not from going beyond.

… you would ask: ok, what is that? … I would answer, a thought.
… to whom does that thought appear? Answer: To me … where do I find that? … hm….

When I feel who is feeling/thinking, there is a „something“ in which feeling can go deeper - but there are no words. Still: whatever I percieve – feeling, going deeper etc. is being felt, so still not me. I cannot catch that one who sees/feels.

When I inquire into „who“, energy increases…still: who perceives that? This formless presence? That would be another object …

Love and eagerness

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Tue May 28, 2019 2:15 pm

Hello Hendrick

Don't worry too much about "getting it". Just do the exercises, as you have been doing, and it will come.
It takes people anything from a week to over a year so just relax and allow it to happen.

Really good looking by the way.

One thing to watch for:
it seems that the answers come from thinking and not from going beyond.

We aren't going beyond anything. We are simply looking at our experience without an overlay of concepts. It is often a new way of looking for people so it takes a bit of getting used to.


Let's look at this sense of self:

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.


Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

So relax and be curious and enjoy. You will see it at some point, but don't worry / think about this happening, just LOOK!


Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Thu May 30, 2019 9:18 pm

Dear Pop,

when I feel without thinking (because thinking/conviction says: no location, no shape, no communication, no characteristics and so on…) than I feel the following:
Does the sense of self have a location?
I contact the „sense of self“ via the word/thought/feeling „I“.
There is a feeling in the heart region, in the middle of the chest. Even though it is a cosy feeling it cannot be a self, because it is felt. And that what is feeling/seeing has no own attributes. When there are attributes they again are seen, so they cannot be self.

Seeing/feeling is happening on its own.

Sense of „self“ can be in the throat region too. But again it is felt, so no self. Same with the head.

By feeling alone I cannot specify a location: no middle of chest, no throat, no head. Just sensation – somewhere.
It is a field where a density or higher concentration of energy is felt – but this density has no self. It is just a sensation.

There is the perception that the „I“-feeling organizes all other feeling that seem to point to character traits. The other feelings are „glued“ to the I-feeling.

But: this I-feeling which I (?) contact now for more than 1 hour has no self. It conveys the feeling that it is a self – but I cannot find a self.

Seeing goes on and on by itself – feelings are felt/seen which are seducing into the imagination of a self – but a living self is not there.
Your question: who is being seduced? ... crazy: thought structure is kind of gravitated to other thoughts (this is a thought on its own) but there is no self on its own that could be attracted to something.

In lack of self => no location.
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
no…
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
no…
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
no answer… not even one :-)
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
I cannot find them.
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
I cannot find a structure. It is „made of“ seeing.

Love

Hendrik

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Thu May 30, 2019 9:38 pm

... whatever I write is wrong in a way because it is still thinking and striving.

All of that is being watched, so it is relative.

The notion of a watcher is itself something to be seen.

There is this openness that "provides" seing and there is the seen; that what is seen is passive even though it is "in" the seeing. The seeing itself is not personal, so no self.

... going in circles ...

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Fri May 31, 2019 11:48 am

Hi Hendrik,


You are not who you think you are.
Literally.
Find out if you exist outside of thought
And what is left if you do not?

Love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:25 am

Hi Pop,

this is another good one :-). Thank you for the pointing.

Ego is only thought - it cannot be outside of thought.

That what is recognizing this is always outside of thought, it cannot be thought.

What is left is stillness.


These is the first outcome....

I will cook deeper in that...

Love Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:19 pm

Hi Hendrik

What is left is stillness.

Great! So behind/outside thought is stillness. Stare at that, get familiar with it, focus on it, let it wash over all that may be arising as doubt.
Can you see that "I" is just a word? just another thought?


When something appears, whatever it is, tension, desire, sound, anything, focus on it with laser sharpness.
Observe it before any thoughts about it appear.
Is there an "I" before the thoughts appear, or does it come with the thoughts?


Love,

Pop

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:53 pm

Hi Hendrik,

Just a quick post to let you know i shall be away from tomorrow (Wednesday) until Tuesday.
I won't be online so feel free to post and i will contact you on Tuesday to pick up where we left off

Love

Pop


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